Kristian's thread

[Damon Kamda]

i simply am the looking.

That sentence is strangely ambiguous in the present context.
In looking - where is the I that is the looking?

In other words- what does the sentence "i simply am the looking" refer to?

as strong sense of "presence" is experienced. when attention is on thoughts and interactions, less of a sense of presence is experienced. yet that which is, is always here. regardless of the experience of "more" or "less".

Ok.
You've discovered a sense of presence that can be more or less present.
Great- yet all this is, is a sense of presence, a temporary idea or state-of-consciousness, like so many others.

It's the simple sense of being.

Now the question is- is this sense of presence in any way personal- i.e. is it your sense of presence? Does the sense of presence mean that a self is present?

the tao that can be put into words is not the one true tao

Haha, I always think that such statement come from people with a rather limited vocabulary.

Sure, there might be some truth in that statement, but quoting it doesn't mean you're there yet.

I hope the suggestions above will keep you busy for a bit- look at that sense of presence, is there someone to whom it occurs? Is there someone behind the sense of presence?

[kristian]

thank you, will look into it. and no more quotes! ;-)

[Damon Kamda]

thank you

:-)

will look into it

yes!

no more quotes!

Amen!

;-)

:-P

[kristian]

there is nothing personal about the presence- at all. nothing. just awareness. i can say that thoughts and reactions to people and situations do appear individual. if there is something "personal", then that. there is still a sense of a something that makes decisions- something that, for example, sits down and looks for a self... or chooses how to choose and formulate the words that are written or spoken, the actions that are taken in the course of a day. something that deems some thoughts useful and others not. something that chooses what to pay attention to.

[Damon Kamda]

Yes, there is what appears to be a person here.

The illusion of a person, a chooser, a doer.

Now what is behind that appearance? If you look closely and examine the structure of that appearance- is there any solidity to it?

Is it real?

Do you exist?

[kristian]

wow, this is really subtle stuff. so, the mind is not only thoughts and sensations but also that undefined feeling of being the doer. choosing its preferences, and actions... all this needs to sink in. the daily observations continue... ;-) maybe a dialogue of faster report would be useful- is it possible to set a date sometime?

[Damon Kamda]

Yes, it is subtle- the illusion is very intricate. Although in order to see through it, not all the various subtleties have to be examined necessarily.

It's enough to see, clearly, once and for all, that it is simply utterly impossible for a self to exist, to have ever existed.

We could set up a date for a more concentrated session, although my schedule is quite irregular.

In the meantime, look at that feeling of being the doer and chooser- is it actually true? Can it be true?

[kristian]

ok, i understand i have to gauge this by own own experience, so i will keep looking into the daily activities to see whats really going on. there is alot of belief invested into a doer, regardless of what my mind agrees on (books, etc.), so i guess the best way to do this is to keep alert and try and see what is actually behind the steering wheel.

[Damon Kamda]

ok, i understand i have to gauge this by own own experience, so i will keep looking into the daily activities to see whats really going on.

Yes, that's the only way.
On the other hand, there's no need to turn this into some kind of practice or long-term project.

The truth is simple, obvious and can be recognized in an instant.

Look, with focus and honesty, at what is actually happening right now, and answer these questions:

Yes, there is what appears to be a person here.

The illusion of a person, a chooser, a doer.

Now what is behind that appearance? If you look closely and examine the structure of that appearance- is there any solidity to it?

Is it real?

Do you exist?

[kristian]

ok, i'm up against the wall here. i will just convey my experience. i experience 2 major different states: one in which i am caught up in thought, and one in which i am observing. when i am consciously observing, there is actually no i, just observing that is happening. yet when conscious observation is not happening, there is engagement in thoughts, feelings and actions. when this is happening there is still an "i"(d)entity that claims ownwership. last night i sat down and let the last post sink in and looked for the structure for the "i". of course there is nothing solid- it is something very subtle, so i tried to enhance it and really go into, get it riled up it so that it would expose itself. a loud yelling voice came up saying: yes- i do make choices, i do think my thoughts, i do choose my actions!!!! it came up out of the chest. something was even observing this, yet this proves that there is definately still a strong mechanism at work. i feel like i am running in circles. all this looking, and then the ego comes up to fully expose itself and i can't seem to see through it. i don't want to simply agree with this forum , i want to have the insight directly, the proof! these are all just thoughts, yet they are still believed.

[Damon Kamda]

i don't want to simply agree with this forum , i want to have the insight directly, the proof!

Yes, please, PLEASE don't simply agree. Find out the truth, once and for all.

i experience 2 major different states: one in which i am caught up in thought, and one in which i am observing. when i am consciously observing, there is actually no i, just observing that is happening. yet when conscious observation is not happening, there is engagement in thoughts, feelings and actions. when this is happening there is still an "i"(d)entity that claims ownwership.

The truth is true no matter what state is occuring.

i am caught up in thought

i am observing

What is the difference between these states? What is the I that is caught up in thought? What is the I that is observing?

Can you see how both "states" are completely ficticious?
How can a thought be caught up in thoughts?
How can a thought observe other toughts?

a loud yelling voice came up saying: yes- i do make choices, i do think my thoughts, i do choose my actions!!!! it came up out of the chest. something was even observing this, yet this proves that there is definately still a strong mechanism at work.

Ok, beautiful, so you see the mechanism in full action. Yet, there's no need to touch that story- just watch it appear, do its dance, and then dissapear again. Is there any control over this voice appearing?

[kristian]

What is the difference between these states? What is the I that is caught up in thought? What is the I that is observing?

Can you see how both "states" are completely ficticious?
How can a thought be caught up in thoughts?
How can a thought observe other toughts?

ok, the experienced difference between the two states is that when pure observation is happening, there is only awareness, whereas when thoughts are happening, awareness is clouded by the thoughts and the focus of awareness is no longer on itself but on the thoughts, reactions, etc... that is the best description i can muster right now.
so it is not actually an "i" that is observing, rather observation is happening. there is also no recognisable "i" thinking, rather thoughts and attachment to thoughts is happening. which leads, of course, to the next question- who is attached to the thoughts... ;-) there is "no one" to be found! wow, this is a real mind fuck.

Is there any control over this voice appearing?

it really does appear that the voice was a response to my question of where is the i... so actually it was experienced as being controlled. it was a direct response or answer to the question that was introduced: who, what and where is this i? if there is no free will, then how can "i" decide to introduce a question into the mind, do this direct pointing, focus attention, etc... i really don't get this one because it really seems that something does choose and decide. something can decide to write these words instead of other words. at least its experienced as such. there is not an experience of random loss of control as in tourettes syndrom or such... something can decide to spontaniously raise an arm or not to do that. im just trying to honestly relate my experience. this free will thing has me boggled.

[Damon Kamda]

so it is not actually an "i" that is observing, rather observation is happening. there is also no recognisable "i" thinking, rather thoughts and attachment to thoughts is happening. which leads, of course, to the next question- who is attached to the thoughts... ;-) there is "no one" to be found! wow, this is a real mind fuck.

Yes! Do you see this is actually the case?

it was a direct response or answer to the question that was introduced: who, what and where is this i? if there is no free will, then how can "i" decide to introduce a question into the mind,

How was the question introduced in the first place?

something can decide to spontaniously raise an arm or not to do that. im just trying to honestly relate my experience. this free will thing has me boggled.

Ok then.
Raise your right arm (or don't).

In that process of raising the right arm, or not- yes, a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn't)- but can you pinpoint the ACTUAL moment of choice and find the ACTUAL entity that appears to be making that choice?

In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found?

Or does the idea "I just chose to (not) raise my right arm" come AFTER the event itself?

[kristian]

Yes! Do you see this is actually the case?

when sitting in silence, yes, this is seen...

How was the question introduced in the first place?

the question was influenced by the advice you gave me and introduced in the mind as a result of frustration that was experienced on not having full clarity.

In that process of raising the right arm, or not- yes, a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn't)- but can you pinpoint the ACTUAL moment of choice and find the ACTUAL entity that appears to me making that choice?

In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found?

well it appears that decisions are made in two ways: either as a planned result of analysis of the possible situation, or intuitively. no, i cannot find an entity making a decision. either the mind makes a judgement (analysis) and then the action is taken, or the action is taken based on an intuitive feeling.

Or does the idea "I just chose to (not) raise my right arm" come AFTER the event itself?

well probably in actions that are unconscious and automated (like most routined things are during the day).

[Damon Kamda]

when sitting in silence, yes, this is seen...

So when the silence passes (which it always does)- what's the difference? In what way does the absence of silence change anything about what is real and what is not?

Ok, you know what?

Test this out. Get off that meditation cushion and go to the busiest, least peaceful place you know. A place that is fully conducive to noise, distraction and excessive thinking. Immerse yourself there.

Then look.

Is there a self?

the question was influenced by the advice you gave me and introduced in the mind as a result of frustration that was experienced on not having full clarity

Precisely. So in what way did a self choose to ask that question?
Can you see how this notion of choosing what thoughts to have is just a story- a justification that is done after the fact (often just seconds afterwards)? I really want you to see this for yourself, but there's quite a bit of neuroscientific evidence for the fact that choices are made (and can be accurately predicted by computers) seconds (!) before the thought "I just chose so-and-so" actually appears.

well it appears that decisions are made in two ways: either as a planned result of analysis of the possible situation, or intuitively. no, i cannot find an entity making a decision. either the mind makes a judgement (analysis) and then the action is taken, or the action is taken based on an intuitive feeling.

Yes, and do any of these decision require an abiter to be made?

well probably in actions that are unconscious and automated (like most routined things are during the day).

Sure. Breathing can easily be seen to be automatic, as is the pumping of the heart, the growing of the hair, the digestion of food etc. etc. That's easy to see.

Now I'm inviting you to take a real close look at those processes we call choice, decision-making, all those apparent acts of free will.

Take any example you feel comfortable with and dissect the experience down its barest elements- is there a self excercising free will? Really?

Give me one example.