Looking for a very patient guide!

[Tanya-D]

Lol!

how about recognise, grasp, grok, understand, really see?

These are all words for 'thought' aren't they? So what do you see, when you 'really see'?

Other than the fact that science is right all along, I'm just another meat robot destined for complete annihilation.

What exactly is this meat suit? Is it the 'self'? Or does something else move it around?

T

[Badgerbob]

Ok, looks like an exasperated emoticon is called for! How about this one? What I'm trying to say is actually the opposite of what I said earlier LOL! Aggghhhh! I 'believe' that there is probably no self; the evidence is good (ie DE, neuroscience, etc), but it doesn't actually impact my perspective on life. I don't 'know' (not just intellectually) it to be true. It doesn't seem to 'sink in'. You know what I mean Tanya, something needs to 'click', as it were. (Good god, how many more ways can I say this? Lol).

The meat suit is what gives rise to the so-called self (though self is just an illusion...probably).


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[Tanya-D]

Understood, but you are using the wrong tool for the job! You are trying to 'think' this through intellectually, Paul. You will never ever do it, because What IS, is beyond the ability of the mind. It is a knowing, not an intellectual understanding. This is why you have to master DE. You will never 'think' your way to seeing through the illusion of self, so answer from DE only - the 5 senses, presence and the movement of thought (not content).

Answer the following -

What moves this body (meat suit) around?
What happens/comes up when you think about IT impacting your perspective of life.
List your honest expectations of what 'seeing this illusion' should be like.

Will catch you tomorrow.

T

[Badgerbob]

Spot on Tanya! I've been trying to think this through and getting nowhere fast.

1) thought moves the body around. I think about doing something or going somewhere and the body does it

2) + 3) I expect 'seeing this illusion' to radically alter my perspective on life. At the moment I see myself as alone and separate, just like everybody else and I live in fear for 'my' life and the lives of those I love. I believe that seeing no-self will free me from this unnecessary fear and suffering and the constant worrying about 'my life'. Jesus said "you will know the truth and the truth will set you free". All I have been searching for my whole life is the truth and that's all that interests me, even at the cost of my 'self'. I don't expect angels singing, fireworks and bliss, just a deep 'knowing' that whatever happens, all is well. P.


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[Tanya-D]

:) Wonderful.

1) thought moves the body around. I think about doing something or going somewhere and the body does it

- Describe this thought that moves the body around? What is it? Does thought have that much power?
- Where is this 'I' that thinks about doing something or going somewhere? Can thoughts think or do they only give that appearance?

Your expectations are reasonable, Paul. But most times that complete surrender and collapse of the self can take time, even after 'Gating'. Things often still need to be looked at deeper. It might not be your case and we can never know what to expect, but most times. It is very unusual to have a big bang and for everything to fall into place. It is like the 'aha' moment can be in an instant and then the enlightening/deepening begins. But please do not make ideas and constructs out of my words here. They are meant to guide you, bot point and say that is IT.

My own experience and those of many in LU (including some non-duality speakers) has been more of a dawning of knowing. Like you realise you have not been able to see clearly, and it has been dull and gloomy because your windows have been filthy - you begin to gradually peel years/layers of dirt and grease off them, and that action begins to let more light (enlightening) in.

You're doing great, Paul :)

T

[Badgerbob]

The thought that moves the body around is largely subconscious; just some little subroutines in the software I guess. We usually think it is 'us' making decisions when in reality choices are often made subconsciously, seconds before reaching the conscious mind. Of course it doesn't feel like that. It feels like 'I' do this, think that or choose the other. Meat robots.


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[Tanya-D]

1. Thought moves the body around? Which thought does that? The body is always moving and thoughts come and go. So does thought actually move a body around?
2. What is in control of this thought that moves the body?
3. What is this subconscious? Where is it? Is 'I' in there?

Answer all question and answer them from DE -

G'night :)

T

[Badgerbob]

Hmmmm answering from DE only and not neuroscience research and experimentation:

1. I don't know
2. I don't know
3. I don't know

Good morning



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[Tanya-D]

:) Honest, as least.

Would you like to try answering them again?

[Badgerbob]

Lol sorry I can't. I don't understand the questions. It's like asking me what the colour blue smells like


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[Tanya-D]

I see. I've helped you to understand how to use the tool of direct experience, but you still get caught up in your opinions, beliefs, assumptions and idea of how this should be.

If I asked you to look at an apple what would happen? Would you think about it, have an opinion about thinking bout it, or just look?

Let me know if you want to continue with this inquiry.

T

[Badgerbob]

Tanya, you've asked me what thought moves the body around? What is in control of the thought that moves the body? And what is the subconscious? And to answer those questions using only my 5 senses??? I honestly don't understand what you even mean. I'm not being awkward or a smart arse, I genuinely don't know what you mean. Can you help me see this thing or not?

An apple is an object I can sense; God knows what a bloody thought is, or the subconscious mind. I can't sense those things in any way, shape or form. Or is that the point of your questions? Hmmm


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[Tanya-D]

An apple is an object I can sense; God knows what a bloody thought is, or the subconscious mind. I can't sense those things in any way, shape or form. Or is that the point of your questions? Hmmm

Yes, that was my point. I am pointing to simply experiencing things rather than analysing your experience.
You can sense the apple - so can you sense a separate self in exactly the same way? Describe what you find.

T

[Badgerbob]

No, I definitely can't sense my self in the same way I can an apple. I can 'hear' the thought stream chattering away and some sensations in the body that indicate it being alive, but no separate self outside of thought. P.


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[Tanya-D]

Good answers, Paul. :)

Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a melon in your hands. Visualize the melon, feel its texture and weight. Then open your eyes. Did the melon go away? Or was it never there in the first place? "Self" is like that melon. It's not something we're trying to make go away. It was never there in the first place. So we keep looking to find out where else we 'believe' it is hiding. OK?

For instance, does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences? Is it in control? Of what exactly?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Catch you soon,

T