The Gate

Hi John,

That's great.
Let's move on to see if there's a chooser in the room.

Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens.

By choice point, I mean the exact point where the apparent decision is made.

Best,

Kevin

Hi Kevin

There is no chooser. There is only choosing. There is no "I" to do the choosing. There are preferences but no one doing the preferring. The choices arise as a thought. Then there is a preferred thought. The choice thought seems to rise up as the preferred thought. The choice-point seems to be when the prominent thought comes to the fore. It is almost as if it is rising up in front of my eyes, forehead, in my mind. It is just a thought rising. There is emphasis on the chosen thought.

Regards
John

Hi John,
That's great.
Can you please walk me through a specific example?

And what did you mean by this:

There is emphasis on the chosen thought.

Thanks,
Kevin

Hi Kevin
When I think "Do I want chicken or beef for dinner tonight", there is a preference for chicken. In the question, the actual words seem to flash before my eyes, perhaps in my mind's eye you could say, and the thought "chicken" seems to rise almost visually. It seems that that is the choice-that is where the emphasis lies. The thought "beef" has either gone into the ether or is very much diminished. Hope that explains it.
Regards
John.

Hi John,
That explains it very well, thank you.
Let's move on to the apparent thinker of the thoughts.

Are you the thinker of thoughts?
Can you think and choose a thought?
Can you stop a thought midstream?
Are you able to resist thinking about a pink rabbit, now that I've said it?


Thanks, John, you're doing great,
Kevin

Hi Kevin

Are you the thinker of thoughts?

I am more than happy that I am not the thinker of thoughts. They just arise from nowhere and disappear back there again.

Can you think and choose a thought?

I cannot think or choose a thought. I can see something – for example a doctor’s letter on my desk and the thought, “I must make an appointment to see the doctor” arises but there is no “me” to think that thought. It arises from nowhere. There can be a chain of thoughts starting from one thought or incident-but they are not “my” thoughts. They are given to me.

Can you stop a thought midstream?

Sometimes an undesirable thought comes up – perhaps about a violent scene that I saw on TV (accompanied by a vision of the violence) or perhaps a thought of something from my past that I am unhappy with or ashamed of, maybe an insult to someone or an argument, and I don’t want to continue with that train of thought. I used to think I could stop the thought and replace it with a more pleasant thought. That does sometimes happen but since there is no “I”, it cannot be “me” doing that so it is just another thought arising that I should abandon the original thought. I am often grateful for that second thought.

Are you able to resist thinking about a pink rabbit, now that I've said it?

The thought “pink rabbit” is difficult to get rid of-but thankfully I am having difficulty picturing one!

Thanks again for your time. I appreciate it.
Regards
John

Hi John,

Great answers, thanks.

I used to think I could stop the thought and replace it with a more pleasant thought. That does sometimes happen but since there is no “I”, it cannot be “me” doing that so it is just another thought arising that I should abandon the original thought. I am often grateful for that second thought.

Brilliant observation there, John, great looking.

Let's take a look at the relationship with the body.

Solely from direct experience:

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?"

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?


Nice work, John.

Best,

Kevin

Hi Kevin

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?"

The body is real. It functions without any input from a "me". If it suffers illness and if medicine is necessary, this happens without input from "me". If it is hurt, pain arises, but it is not my pain. The feeling of pain may seem to belong to me but since there is no "me" it can only be pain arising. The movement of the body is real but sensations tactile and kinesthetic arise independently of the body so the answer to your question is "no".

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

If I grasp the table with my hand, there is a feeling arising of touching the table but it is not the body's feeling. It is simply feeling arising of touching the table with a hand. If there is hunger, the body gives out a signal and the thought "I am hungry" arises so while the body does not experience thoughts, it can give rise to thoughts. Again, the answer to your question is "no".

Regards
John

Hi John,

Just a bit busy, will be back with a response in a bit.

Thanks,

Kevin

Sorry for the wait, John, unusually busy day.

Can you tell me if there's an owner of the body?


Thanks,


Kevin

Hi Kevin
No problem. We all have days like that. I appreciate the time you are giving.

There is no owner of the body. There is no "I" to own the body and I have been satisfied for a long time that I am not my body. It simply functions. There is breathing, heart beating, fingernails and hair growing, red blood cells being produced etc and I have nothing to do with it. If illness occurs, the thought arises that medicine should be taken or a doctor visited and it just happens.

Regards
John

Great answers, John,

They seem quite clear.

I just want to run some round up questions by you, if that's okay.

So, there we are then. Let's just look at all this from a slightly different angle:

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

Thanks John.

Best,

Kevin

Hi Kevin

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

There is this body called "John" and the world it is part of which are all very real. There are thoughts arising and actions taken by John. There are feelings and sensations which are all real but arise from nowhere.

What experiences?

No one experiences. There is only experiencing.

What thinks?

No one thinks. Thoughts arise and disappear again. Some stay around for a while. Others are very short lived.

What does?

There is no "I" that is a doer. Doing happens without any input from an "I" which does not exist.

What is aware?

No one is aware. There is only awareness.

There is a temptation to say that thoughts, feelings, sensations etc arise from consciousness or awareness or whatever word one wishes to use but that would appear to create duality and there is no duality-only one. So I prefer to avoid the use of the word consciousness, awareness etc. Obviously I do not understand how it all comes about and never will so prefer to leave alone contemplation on that matter.

Regards
John

Great stuff, John.

So can you tell me with a huge unequivocal "YES" that there is no separate self?
And that there never was?

Thanks,
Kevin

Hi Kevin

Yes I can. It seems odd that this was never found out before. It is your insistence on direct experience and my looking that has confirmed this. Many thanks.

Regards
John