spacious sky requesting support

[spaciousness]

yes i did try this investigation. there is a sense of subtle internal shifts in perception of the world. I have experienced these shifts in perspective previously. today, i have been observing where various decisions, actions originate from and am unable to locate the moment or location and sense them as just unfolding...when i am sitting with deer in my courtyard, i am aware of a connection with them and there connection with me as simply a connection beyond words, which i do fairly regularly, but it seemed my inner sense was deeper and quieter...from where...no where to locate it happening from. choices throughout the day seem to come from mind but where is mind? no where that i can locate..
does that make sense? thank you Jon for your guidance....

[spaciousness]

Jon: i actually have no idea what makes things happen. so are we programmed automatons based on past experiences, nature, nurture, genetics, epigenetics or is there "something else" an all pervading conscious awareness that comes through as us, you, me? is the i the limited perception from our thoughts, of an "all that is" conscious awareness that is everywhere and is everything, an all pervading conscious awareness that has received limiting labels such as "g-d", atman, soul, spirit, etc. etc.? if so, that i feel, sense and am....

[JonathanR]

Hi Allen,

Jon: i actually have no idea what makes things happen

This is very straightforward and honest.

when i am sitting with deer in my courtyard, i am aware of a connection with them and there connection with me as simply a connection beyond words, which i do fairly regularly, but it seemed my inner sense was deeper and quieter...from where...no where to locate it happening from.

This is very beautiful. 'Beyond words' seems important and 'nowhere to locate it happening from'.

so are we programmed automatons based on past experiences, nature, nurture, genetics, epigenetics

That's one stream of thoughts, isn't it?

or is there "something else" an all pervading conscious awareness that comes through as us, you, me? is the i the limited perception from our thoughts, of an "all that is" conscious awareness that is everywhere and is everything, an all pervading conscious awareness that has received limiting labels such as "g-d", atman, soul, spirit, etc. etc.?

And this is another stream of thougts, isn't it?

Tell me if I'm wrong but in both cases these streams of thoughts are an attempt to create a story of 'how things are' or 'how things happen', aren't they?


Regards,

Jon

[spaciousness]

Hi Jon:
Yes, they are both actually just other streams of thought to create a story, an explanation of all of it, trying to explain in limiting words and concepts the beyond the beyond. actually, when i lecture and quote various spiritual teachings, people sometimes ask me if i am buddhist, a christian, etc....and i find myself saying that it is all beyond labels and if i had to label beliefs i would say that i am a beyondist....i often joke and just say yes, if one needs to label my current thoughts, i am a beyondist, beyond all thoughts...but that too is just a new story....got it.....
so...what i find is i have a more challenging time talking to people more and more because i realize that everything i say is a concept, a story, a thought, a belief and i find myself desiring more and more just to be by myself and reclusive. my girlfriend is not so appreciative of that...
i can actually be quite content being quite contemplative and reclusive...
so how does one use language?
perhaps, there seems sometimes there is nothing more to say....simply be, simply experience and experience the cosmic chuckle in the awareness of it all

[JonathanR]

Allen,

Forgive me, I am away from home at the moment and very busy. I will try to post later today.

Jon

[spaciousness]

Thank you Jon. no worries. experience continues to unfold. the observer or witness seems to be experiencing events from much more of a distance, without the reactions as much. when judgement comes up, i am noticing it as that and not following it or attaching too it nearly as much.....just an update.
blessings, allen

[JonathanR]

.i often joke and just say yes, if one needs to label my current thoughts, i am a beyondist, beyond all thoughts...but that too is just a new story....got it.....

Ha yes!

Thank you Jon. no worries. experience continues to unfold. the observer or witness seems to be experiencing events from much more of a distance, without the reactions as much. when judgement comes up, i am noticing it as that and not following it or attaching too it nearly as much.....just an update.

Is there a 'witness' or 'observer' distinct from 'events unfolding'? Regardless of wheher the answer is 'yes' or 'no', where does this idea of 'observer' and 'observed' come from?


Love,

Jon.

[spaciousness]

Hi Jon:

great question and i have absolutely no answer......beyond the beyond.....

all pervading consciousness pervading all that is?????? yes, love a

[JonathanR]

Hi Allen,

Is there a 'witness' or 'observer' distinct from 'events unfolding'? Regardless of whether the answer is 'yes' or 'no', where does this idea of 'observer' and 'observed' come from?

great question and i have absolutely no answer......beyond the beyond.....

all pervading consciousness pervading all that is??????

Or maybe thought? Isn't it that there is a habit of thinking of some kind of 'wintness'? That 'events unfolding' must be being observed by something (or someone)?

In experience, is it possible to find an actual line or break between 'witness' and 'observed'? What happens if the assumption that there must be a separate witness or witnessing principle is placed to one side for a moment?

This can be exlored. A walk in nature, or perhaps a local park is a great way to look at this. Somehwere where everything is alive and wiggling. Sun, clouds, wind, trees, leaves, animals, insects, people. Not only this but also feelings, thoughts, sensations of all sorts, sounds, smells, sights. All going on, flowing.

Now, in all this that is going on, is it possible to find a line where 'you' end and 'nature' or 'everything else' begins? Is there a break, a separation of any sort that can be found in experience, or is it all simply happening, flowing?

If no separation can be found, is it right to speak in terms of a 'witness' that 'witnesses'? Or does it seem that everything appears together?

Love

Jon

[spaciousness]

Hi Jon:
yes, everything appears together...no separation....the thought of a witness is aside....when i have deer sit with me at my front door and we are experiencing each other, watching each other, i watch their concern and alertness about being in danger, fear and then as they sense that i am not a danger, everything relaxes....the birds come around and all becomes more peaceful....yes, everything just seems to be happening, flowing, unfolding.....
yet....there is a sense of "i" or someone observing this within me.....yet....i cannot locate the observer at all.....when i am not coming from i, there is a sense of no separation, all simply unfolding together.....
it seems that as soon as the thought "i" comes in then there appears to be a witness, an observer of the outside, the other, a separation....
it actually almost felt like the "i" barged into witness what was simply an all unfolding....hmmmm?????
is there a way to stop the "i" going into separation of me vs. other....or is it simply awareness of when that happens, recognize the "i" or observer as another thought?
this is most beneficial
thank you again jon! love, allen

[JonathanR]

Hi Allen,

Some great observatins here.

is there a way to stop the "i" going into separation of me vs. other....or is it simply awareness of when that happens, recognize the "i" or observer as another thought?

Yes. Tht's right. Look at experience as it happens. Does it seem that thoughts can be prevented from appearing?

If the answer is 'no' then how would it be possible to prevent the thought 'I' from appearing?

It is almost a joke. Whilst there really is no self that can be found in experience anywhere, this means there is no self that could prevent thoughts from appearing, including the thought 'me'. The illusion may reassert its self in terms of a thought but will be seen thorough again and again.


Jon

[spaciousness]

zowee! yes, the answer is no, thoughts cannot be prevented, they are like the sun's rays emanating endlessly...
yes, it is a joke! got it! hah! there is no self that could prevent thoughts....got it!
so, one just sees through it over and over again.....thank you my friend! blessings, allen

[JonathanR]

Hi Allen,

zowee! yes, the answer is no, thoughts cannot be prevented, they are like the sun's rays emanating endlessly...

Nice. Or sometimes maybe like clouds that seem to appear and disappear? Or again, like announcements made over a tannoy? Thoughts can be either liked or disliked, can't they? Do you see how thoughts are also like announcements that 'say' things? That not only is there the reality of them appearing whenever they do but also that they provide a commentary ABOUT experience?

yes, it is a joke! got it! hah! there is no self that could prevent thoughts....got it!
so, one just sees through it over and over again...

Great! But now, imagine that you wished to attempt to express what you have just said (in this sentance) to people who know nothing about 'no self' , so as not to be misunderstood. Imagine that I have never heard anything about non-duality. Might you rephrase your last statement slightly to avoid any confusion and if so, how might the wording be changed?

Love

Jon

[spaciousness]

Hi Jon:

"Thoughts can be either liked or disliked, can't they?"

yes, but then "who" is liking them or disliking them"? simply another thought? past programmings in the neural net?

"Do you see how thoughts are also like announcements that 'say' things? That not only is there the reality of them appearing whenever they do but also that they provide a commentary ABOUT experience?"

yes, i see that, but then who's commentary about experience? a conglomeration of past programming, epigenetics etc that is labeled i comments about the experience?

"rephrase your last statement slightly to avoid any confusion and if so, how might the wording be changed?"

rephrasing...... thoughts arise and they are labeled, categorized, commented on by another thought that we label "i" and identify with as a unique self separate from others. yet we are not separate, it is the thought of i labeling other thoughts that create an illusion as self vs. other, commenting on them as like or dislike, creating an illusory identity of an "i" that has likes and dislikes, judgments etc. how is that?

thank you, love, allen

[JonathanR]

Hi Allen

yes, but then "who" is liking them or disliking them"? simply another thought? past programmings in the neural net?

Excellent.

yes, i see that, but then who's commentary about experience? a conglomeration of past programming, epigenetics etc that is labeled i comments about the experience?

Good

rephrasing...... thoughts arise and they are labeled, categorized, commented on by another thought that we label "i" and identify with as a unique self separate from others. yet we are not separate, it is the thought of i labeling other thoughts that create an illusion as self vs. other, commenting on them as like or dislike, creating an illusory identity of an "i" that has likes and dislikes, judgments etc.

Very good. Perfect.Nicely phrased.

Do you feel that you have seen through the illusion of separate 'self'? If you have any doubts or uncertainty about this now is the time to say so.

If your answer is 'yes', (that you have 'seen') then I'd like to ask you some final questions? We always ask these six at this stage in the conversation. Once you have answered these six we can take a look at what you have written. Then I'd like to invite the other guides to take a look at our conversation and present any further questions that they may wish to ask. But please take your time. If you have any doubts or concerns we can address those now and look at the six questions later?

Love

Jon