Breaking my own heart

[Alexw]

Sure, take your time. Have a good weekend!

[andrea3868]

Hi Alex,

Even when you are perfectly sure that you made a decision, check how it came to be... You will always find a certain trigger that was not in your power that triggered a certain thought, mood or experience. How come you booked the trip next weekend? Did you see an ad on TV, did someone call you, did you suddenly have to picture of a nice beach in your head and the next thought was "Lets have a holiday!"... See if you can find the start of the chain. Was there an "I/self" that decided to book a trip for next weekend?

I found this very interesting. Although I can't really go back and see the trigger for the trip this weekend, all I can find are stories about not being sad. I did really watch all weekend for a 'decider' - and there's not one! There doesn't seem to be any control at all. I thought it might just be when other people were involved, like they would have input contrary to my decision. But it's everywhere! Always! I can decide to get up and stop typing right now, but here's how it occurs in my 'direct experience'. I have the thought 'I should get up' and then the thought 'but I don't want to' and then 'let me just finish this sentence' and then 'ok, in a minute'. I can't generate any of these thoughts, they just happen and I watch them. Then, suddenly, I'm up! Weirdest thing...

Being with my grandkids was so great. Axil is almost 6 months old. Fascinating to watch him and speculate about whether or not he is thinking yet. And watching my decisions! He cries and I think 'Is he hungry?' and then I'm asking his mom 'could he be hungry' and I didn't decide to do that. Or just standing up and bouncing him and not even noticing a thought about doing that first.

And the sad thoughts were MUCH less prevalent. Part of that was being busy with family I'm sure. On the drive home though, several times, I would think about Jeff and then have the thought 'that's just a thought'. This morning when I woke up I was thinking about one of the last times we were together, and wondering if he missed me, and I thought 'does it matter? if he misses me it's just his thoughts, and there's no way to know.' Much more peaceful.

Andrea

[Alexw]

Hi Andrea,

Great to heart that you had a nice family time.
And, great observations! Well done!

I did really watch all weekend for a 'decider' - and there's not one! There doesn't seem to be any control at all. I thought it might just be when other people were involved, like they would have input contrary to my decision. But it's everywhere! Always!

Yes, spot on!
What makes it seem like control is the story that we wrap around things that simply happen. There is an "I" doing things, controlling and deciding stuff and there is an "I" hoping for the decision to be right. The "I" is afraid of it not happening as planned. I, I, I and another I... do any of them exist outside of the story of "I"?

If not, then it seems we live in story-land, doesn't it? Some might be fun, entertaining, and some sad or frightening. But for who? For the body? For "you"? Who is the one that seems to be in these states? Is the statement "I am sad" any more than a thought arising stating this? It is followed by an avalanche of more "sad" thoughts, but is there an I/self being sad?

If you would have to explain what this separate "I/self" is, and where it comes from... what would you say?

Alex

[andrea3868]

Hi Alex,

If not, then it seems we live in story-land, doesn't it? Some might be fun, entertaining, and some sad or frightening. But for who? For the body? For "you"? Who is the one that seems to be in these states? Is the statement "I am sad" any more than a thought arising stating this? It is followed by an avalanche of more "sad" thoughts, but is there an I/self being sad?

Excellent questions :) It seems that I am living in storyland for another story, the story of 'I'. The thought 'I am sad' is just another story. It's not reporting on a state that exists in me. It's just a thought that arises sometimes. Sometimes there's an avalanche of more sad thoughts, and sometimes the next thought is 'I don't have time for that now' or 'I can't cry here' or, more often lately 'so what'. I'm looking at the last part of your sentence 'is there an I/self being sad'. I'm looking at that word being. I've done extensive work with Landmark Education, ontological work, the study of 'being'. I guess I never put it together before that who I am 'being' is a product of a thought that I really have no control over at all. Wow.

If you would have to explain what this separate "I/self" is, and where it comes from... what would you say?

I would say that it comes from thought, that it's a construct that we're taught to use from an early age to make communication easier. I was just playing 'who is that' with my granddaughter. Pointing to my son 'who is that?' 'Daddy!' Pointing to her 'Who is that?' 'Ari!' Seems like that's the first step... and she's just understanding the concept of 'mine' too.

Andrea

[Alexw]

Hi Andrea,

Very good observations!

The thought 'I am sad' is just another story. It's not reporting on a state that exists in me. It's just a thought that arises sometimes.

Yes, true, its just another story. How do you experience a state? How do you know it is "in me"? Can you describe this in more detail?

I would say that it comes from thought, that it's a construct that we're taught to use from an early age to make communication easier. I was just playing 'who is that' with my granddaughter. Pointing to my son 'who is that?' 'Daddy!' Pointing to her 'Who is that?' 'Ari!' Seems like that's the first step... and she's just understanding the concept of 'mine' too.

Yes! You are getting very good at this :-)

So, "you" have learned to be "you", haven't "you"?
How does that make you feel?

Kind regards
Alex

[andrea3868]

Hi Alex,

Yes, true, its just another story. How do you experience a state? How do you know it is "in me"? Can you describe this in more detail?

I don't experience a state. I thought that I did... I thought the thought 'I'm sad' was descriptive of a state of my mind, but it's not. It's just a thought, and as far as I can tell, when I'm really looking and paying attention, the thought doesn't report on the state, it is previous to the emotion even. It seems like the thought comes first, and then the emotion happens.

Yes! You are getting very good at this :-)

Yes, I'm getting good at the language around it, but I still don't feel like I really 'get' it, that I can stay aware of it for more than seconds at a time. Let me give you an example.

This morning, I had a new thought, one that had never occurred to me before. I thought 'It's the same way for Jeff. He is just thoughts arising, thoughts that he has no control over. He's just a bundle of impulses in a meat bag, and he had as little choice to stay with the relationship as I did'. Totally new thought, something I had never seen before. Is it true? Is it useful? Did 'I' think it? Where did that thought come from? It SEEMS like I'm learning from this process, I'm getting 'good' at it, and it's changing the way that I think. But how can that be, if there is no 'I' to learn? Am I taking it to far, Alex? Of course we learn, I can think of a bazillion examples right off the top of my head.

Here's another one, in the other direction. On Monday our yoga teacher taught us a new meditation. She asked us to practice it twice a day until our next class on Wednesday and then report back. I did the meditation on Monday night, and then didn't think of it again. Not once! I meant to, I had an intention to, it's a lovely meditation and I really enjoyed it and wanted to do it, but I NEVER had the thought. Not once. I didn't think about it and then think 'not now', it honestly never came up. No control at all.

So, "you" have learned to be "you", haven't "you"?
How does that make you feel?

Ha! Like I should have done a better job. Like I put too much crap into 'me' that I want to get over now. Like I left something really important up to a 2 year old. Like I want a do over.

Andrea

[Alexw]

Hi Andrea,

the thought doesn't report on the state, it is previous to the emotion even. It seems like the thought comes first, and then the emotion happens.

Have a look at what you call emotions. A thought happens "I miss Jeff". A physical sensation happens, maybe a contraction in the abdomen, another thought "I am sad"... What is this emotion we call sadness? Is it any more than a combination of thoughts and physical sensations?

Yes, I'm getting good at the language around it, but I still don't feel like I really 'get' it, that I can stay aware of it for more than seconds at a time.

How would you do that? Staying aware of "it" all the time? How does staying aware work?
A thought happens and another thought happens "I have been thinking about ice cream!" - this is what many traditions call the observer or witness. It is just another thought saying something about a previous one.
So... can you choose to have observer-thoughts all the time? Do you have to think about every thought twice?

It SEEMS like I'm learning from this process, I'm getting 'good' at it, and it's changing the way that I think. But how can that be, if there is no 'I' to learn?

Yes, very good question :-)
How can that be that "you" seem to learn stuff... Are "you" really learning OR is the learning (the accumulated knowledge) itself this "you" that you are referring to?

Ha! Like I should have done a better job. Like I put too much crap into 'me' that I want to get over now. Like I left something really important up to a 2 year old.

Did you have a choice?

Kind regards
Alex

[andrea3868]

Hi Alex,

What is this emotion we call sadness? Is it any more than a combination of thoughts and physical sensations?

Sadness is just another concept. Yes, it's a combination of thoughts and physical sensations. Why do we call this particular one 'sadness'? I'm thinking about my granddaughter again. She might look sad, and someone says 'are you sad?" and then there it is, now she knows this sensation is sadness. Huh. And what 'causes' the emotion? If it was what Jeff did you would think I would be over it by now. It's just another thought. And any reason I would find to be sad? Just yet another thought, eh?

How would you do that? Staying aware of "it" all the time? How does staying aware work?

Another excellent question, Alex! How would I do that?? I had the thought 'I would like it to be like the air I breathe' - always there, always useful, but seldom if ever needing to be thought of. I guess I do have some dang expectations after all, don't I? Obviously, when I really take a look at how I would do that, how that would be possible, it's craziness. I'm not aware of a dang thing ALL of the time. Even being a woman, being alive, being a mom comes and goes.

Are "you" really learning OR is the learning (the accumulated knowledge) itself this "you" that you are referring to?

That's more accurate - I knew it as soon as I read it. I'm the accumulated knowledge. Even the sadness is something I learned. Or at least the concept of sadness.

Did you have a choice?

Hmmmm. I thought about this a lot, Alex. At first I thought that I didn't have a choice, it was up to the people around me when I was young to teach me, and they blew it. Always nice to have someone to blame. Then I thought about how it was when my kids were young and I was teaching them. And what it would be like to try to be around someone who had no concept of self, no concept of 'I'. I have said 'there is always a choice' my whole life, been irritated beyond belief when others have said 'I had no choice'. You are pushing my buttons Alex ;) I'm still looking, but so far I haven't found a point where I had a choice about this.

Andrea

[Alexw]

Hi Andrea,

Sadness is just another concept. Yes, it's a combination of thoughts and physical sensations.

Yes! :-)

I had the thought 'I would like it to be like the air I breathe' - always there, always useful, but seldom if ever needing to be thought of. I guess I do have some dang expectations after all, don't I?

Thats just fine, don't we all..? If you do something you have the a certain expectation of the outcome - at least as long as thought is involved. Thought works like that, it always wants something out of every situation, doesn't it? Thats the same down to the smallest thing: You go to the fridge to get a drink and get some "satisfaction" from it - its not enough to simply feed the body... you want someone to be in you life so "you" are more happy... etc etc...
See if you can find some other examples..

That's more accurate - I knew it as soon as I read it. I'm the accumulated knowledge. Even the sadness is something I learned. Or at least the concept of sadness.

Yes... so how would you, this self made of knowing, turn into a no-self? Can "you" do that? What can you do? Can you decide to drop this self and replace it with a "no-self"?

I'm still looking, but so far I haven't found a point where I had a choice about this.

Keep on looking... its different to only think that you might have no choice, and clearly seeing it in "real life"... Keep observing.

Alex

[andrea3868]

Hi Alex,

Thought works like that, it always wants something out of every situation, doesn't it?

Oh yes, and I wanted a lot out of my relationship with Jeff. I'd been single for a long time, was pretty bitter and cynical about men, but he got to me somehow. I wanted a partner, tired of being alone, tired of thinking there was something wrong with me. That's me, that's thought, wanting something out of every situation. I'm manipulative and selfish, and always looking out for my own benefit by default.

Yes... so how would you, this self made of knowing, turn into a no-self? Can "you" do that? What can you do? Can you decide to drop this self and replace it with a "no-self"?

Alex, you sly thing, there's a clue in your signature line, isn't there? It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know.

Or maybe not, I keep thinking about my mom. She had Alzheimers, and at the end she certainly forgot all of her learning. It was eye-opening to be around someone who always lived in the present moment, who had absolutely nothing else. I'm thinking that she really lost her concept of 'I'. No way for me to do that, the best chance I have is seeing through it, remembering it's not real at some useful and opportune moments perhaps.

No, we've already established I have no control over thought. 'I' can't replace self with no-self. 'I' am simply thoughts arising as they arise, no way to know what the next one might be. It's predictable that my thoughts will continue to start with 'I'. I've been unable to find any way to make a decision or a choice, so that's not going to do it for me. What can I do? I can look at my direct experience. Right here, right now, looking at cup. Looking for me.

Andrea

[Alexw]

Hi Andrea,

She had Alzheimers, and at the end she certainly forgot all of her learning. It was eye-opening to be around someone who always lived in the present moment, who had absolutely nothing else. I'm thinking that she really lost her concept of 'I'. No way for me to do that, the best chance I have is seeing through it, remembering it's not real at some useful and opportune moments perhaps.

Yes, if you really forget all your learning you are left with nothing conceptual... just the body functioning, but no concept of I or other or world, no concept of separation... this wouldn't work well in society. What is society anyway? Not much more than a set of rules and beliefs all thought based and often in stark contrast to the natural functioning of the human organism... Anyway, lets not get too philosophical...
So, yes, you are absolutely right, its about the realisation, the seeing that there really is only thought story about a you that has problems, that suffers that wants certain things and not others, but never a real, solid entity to be found.
"Forgetting what we have learned" doesn't really mean that one should forget everything, not knowing anymore that this is a car approaching from the left, but rather to unlearn a few things that make our life miserable by introducing this all-important I/me that has to stand apart from others, that has to elevate itself higher and higher and that is caught in a never ending chase for happiness, not understanding that the chase itself is exactly what keeps you from being happy now.

What can I do? I can look at my direct experience. Right here, right now, looking at cup. Looking for me.

You could also just enjoy the ride - enjoy that you don't have any problems outside of a thought pretending that there is a you that would have them. Listen more to your body and enjoy the full spectrum of this experience...

I think we are at a point where I should ask you if you feel that you have seen, realised, what crossing the gate means... Have "you" crossed the gate-less gate? Do you have any doubts? Questions that arise?

[andrea3868]

Oh Alex! I have not crossed the gateless gate. 'I' have not. There is no 'I' to do the crossing. Wow.
Andrea

[Alexw]

Ok, great :-)

Do you want to have a go at the 6 questions below? This normally sums up what we have been discussing so far.After this we can add you to the LU Facebook groups if you like - there are many great people there. It can be helpful to read certain posts or discuss questions and doubts.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

Kind regards,
Alex

[andrea3868]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, Alex, in my direct experience, there is no such entity.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion is a convenience, a story we tell our babies in order to facilitate communication and interact with each other. It keeps some continuity in place, so that we can do things like go to school or work and talk to and about each other. The illusion allows us to operate here, without it we couldn't function.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Here's something that happened yesterday. My yoga teacher said 'breathe into the pain' and I had this flashback to when Jeff and I first got together. He sobbed about his recent divorce as I held him in my arms and said 'breathe into the pain'. I felt sad when she said it, but just for a short time, maybe 30 seconds tops. Then I was thinking about it in the car on the way home and got mad, thinking about when I was sobbing and all he would say was 'we aren't going to talk about that'. But I couldn't hold on to it! I really wanted to come home and tell my son 'I'm angry!' and rant about it. I kept losing the anger. I could start thinking about it again, and get the anger back, but then it would go away again. I didn't even put it together with an 'I' and the work we've been doing, Alex, until later. I was actually talking to my son, telling him 'I'm angry!' and I realized it just wasn't so, no anger there at all. All I could do was laugh. Even trying to type out this story, it holds no juice for me, it seems really flat and kinda boring (drama free), seems a little strange that I have been upset for so long about this.

I had at least 3 people comment on my mood yesterday, my yoga teacher thanked me for my 'fun and light heartedness', a coworker told me I was funny, and another one said 'you're really on a roll today, aren't you?'

I feel like things are less significant, there's nothing to get my panties in a twist about, really, all is well. Not like over the top joyous awesomeness, more like a low-level contentment, a background sense of being pleased with all of it.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was the quotes around 'you' in this sentence: Have "you" crossed the gate-less gate? Clearly if I have no control over my thoughts, decisions or choices, if I can't find 'me' anywhere, there's no crossing to be done by 'me'. Then I had the thought 'if there is no 'me', if I made up 'me', then I must also be making up the 'gate', the blockage, the something out there that is keeping me from being happy. If 'I' is an illusion then 'gate' is an illusion too. And then it was just gone, this desire to get somewhere, this feeling that there's something else I need to strive for, something that 'I' don't have but need. This, coming right on the heals of our conversation about my mom and the usefulness of this illusion of 'I'... that helped me see that I didn't have to get rid of the 'I', that I really never would get rid of it, because I am it. How can 'I' get rid of 'I'?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from recent experience.

These are very similar to the illusion of 'I'. They are constructs designed to allow us to function in the world, passed down to me from my parents and grandma, passed along by me to my children and grandchildren. I don't know what makes things happen, all I have are stories about it. I don't know how it works. What am I responsible for? I honestly don't know.
Yesterday I was talking about a coworker. I'm a manager at my job, and I haven't been happy with this person's performance. The owner of the company and I are talking to this person tomorrow, and I've been thinking about what to say that will make a difference. I decided on asking him to look at his intentions when he starts a task. Is his intention to help someone, to further something, or is his intention to show someone up, prove that his is right or better than? I really like the way that sounds, I like thinking of myself as someone who manages that way, but on some level it seems like so much bullshit as well, at the same time. But it's what I've got, it's how we communicate. I can use it, and let it use me, but it all seems a little hollow right now, a little silly.

6) Anything to add?

Since I've been writing this post, Alex, I've noticed that I'm not evaluating my words by how they will sound to you, or what you will think of me as much as I've done at times in the past. It's not that I don't care what you think, it's just that I don't believe I have any power over what you think at all. I don't have any power over what I think... and all is right with the world. Not rainbows and unicorns right, but somehow orderly and ummmm, drama-free. There's just not a big pile of emotions and upset around much right now. Emotions come and go quickly and easily. So far... lol.

Thanks for the dialogue, Alex. I have seen what I didn't see before :)

Andrea

[andrea3868]

And I'd like to get on the facebook page, please.
Andrea