Searching for answers - Shirley777

[JonathanR]

Hi Shirley,

There at first is the thoughts about hearing and the focus on the ears the physical but then I just hear there is no beginning or end. I am distracted for moments and notice I am hearing but then nothing I just hear. It is wonderful.

Great.

It's so interesting that there seems to be a passing in and out of focus here?

At first you note the thoughts and at this stage there is still the idea of 'hearing' and thought goes to 'the ears'. The thinking is all about what is going to happen and ideas about how this will happen through physical ears and so on. At this stage there is also the thought 'I am hearing'.

But then there is simply the hearing. How wonderful that there is no beginning or end to this.

Was this how it was when there was no 'seer', only seeing?

You may like to observe this hearing several times and notice if there is any 'self' or 'I' that is 'doing' the hearing?

Also, these wonderful investigations can be done with each of the five senses, touch, taste and smell, as well as hearing and seeing. In each case see if there is a direct experience of the sense. See if there is a 'me' anywhere, making the senses happen.

Love,

Jon

[Shirley777]

It is a similar experience with the other senses thoughts first and then I relax into the experience. I found it more difficult with taste.

At first there is me the physical me and then just experience. I feel so light and peaceful at first then I just feel. Again wonderful but only moments of this.
Thank you Jon
Love
Shirley

[JonathanR]

HI Shirley,

Great. There is an immediate experience of sensations and it is wonderful. I notice you say 'only for moments'. That's OK. The main thing is to actually recognse this and be able to notice it in the moment.

Do you find thoughts appear from time to time commenting on the actual experience? Would you say that thoughts are something extra that is added on to the actual experience, but not the experience its self? Take a look and see if thoughts seem to make occasional announcements ABOUT the experience?

Does it seem that thoughts can be prevented from appearing? To find out, try preventing a thought from appearing.


Love,

Jon

[Shirley777]

Yes thought are commenting on the experience and I'm not sure if these are part of the experience. My mind drifts off somewhere else focussing on the thoughts that lead from one to another and I have to bring it back to the moment the present. I feel the thoughts are perhaps part of the experience but at times get all the attention and I thus miss the rest of the experience. I can't prevent a thought they come thicker and faster when I do. If I just allow them to come and go freely they are less and the whole experience is wonderful. I wish it would last longer but I'm happy to be experiencing and being aware I am.
Thank you Jon you are very kind to me.
Shirley

[JonathanR]

Yes thought are commenting on the experience and I'm not sure if these are part of the experience.

Well, let's take a look at this then.

I feel the thoughts are perhaps part of the experience but at times get all the attention and I thus miss the rest of the experience.

Interesting. Do you notice with the seeing and hearing and other sensations that each of the five senses seems to happen automatically? In other words, as long as you notice sensations they just seem to happen?

(My hand is resting on my laptop. There is a feeling of contact, of pressure, where the hand meets the laptop. This direct sensation just seems to be happening as it is being experienced. Find an example of sensation and explore this yourself. Does the sensation seem to be just happening?

In the case of thoughts, these just seem to appear, don't they? Like clouds that cross the sky for a while? And in that respect of them just happening, do you see that they are a bit like the senses?

But this is only one side of thought. Do you notice that each thought seems to be ABOUT something? Each thought has content, sometimes refered to as 'story'?

I feel the thoughts are perhaps part of the experience but at times get all the attention and I thus miss the rest of the experience. I can't prevent a thought they come thicker and faster when I do.

Are thoughts perhaps part of the experience but the content of thoughts is where the attention goes, to the story that thought is spinning?

Love

Jon

[Shirley777]

I think The sensations just happen even if I'm not paying attention to them. It is just happening the experience.
The thoughts are just like the senses the attention on them comes and goes and in between I experience.
Yes the thoughts are connected and they tell stories and at times my mind is spinning and too noisy. It is great to just experience and feel free.

Yes thoughts are part of the experience and my attention goes to them listening to the stories like they are real acting things out in my mind even answering myself.

Today as I was about to practice experiencing I said to my ego is it ok with you if you sit back for a while and let me have some peace and let me just experience. The answer back was but I'm part of the experience but I will chill for a bit. I began to laugh out loud and felt such joy and enjoyed the experience.
I am struggling to not spend most of my day focussing on my thoughts the stories in my head. Every so often I remember though and am mindful.
Thank you
Shirley

[JonathanR]

Hi Shirley,

It is just happening the experience.
The thoughts are just like the senses the attention on them comes and goes and in between I experience.
Yes the thoughts are connected and they tell stories and at times my mind is spinning and too noisy. It is great to just experience and feel free.

Great. So would you say that sensations and thoughs appearing just seem to happen and 'you' don't make them happen'? But then the noise from thoughts and the intensity of the stories and commentary about things from thought can make it seem like 'I am having thoughts'? But do you ever notice a 'self' creating your thoughts? If there were a 'self' that created thoughts surely it would be possible to know in advance what thoughts we were going to think and we would choose not to think unpleasant thoughts?

Today as I was about to practice experiencing I said to my ego is it ok with you if you sit back for a while and let me have some peace and let me just experience. The answer back was but I'm part of the experience but I will chill for a bit. I began to laugh out loud and felt such joy and enjoyed the experience.

Good. But have I said before that I think 'ego' is a loaded word? In this inquiry we explore the possibility that 'self' is simply an illusion and a bunch of assumpions about a supposed 'me'. But by talking of an ego in this way it is a further objectification of something that isn't really 'there'. 'Ego' sounds vaguley scientific or like a slavering dog on a chain or something. But can that creature be found in experience, except as an assumed entity, an idea from thought, perhaps? Tell me what you think?


Jon

[Shirley777]

I don't notice a self creating the thoughts I have no control over them they just happen. And yes it feels like I'm having them but clearly not as I don't have control over them. But Jon where do they come from and why do they happen. Are the thoughts what is referred to as the ego.

The ego is my downfall I'm getting so hooked up on it. if it doesn't exist how do I get rid of it or how do I live with it. I no you say it's an illusion but why does it feel so real and why is it assumed by. Many it exists. Or am I totally misunderstanding everything about it. All I no in simple terms is there is a voice in my head that tells me what's right and wrong and in very insecure wanting to please people and get its own way. It puts me down and gets in my head for want of a better way of describing it and controls me. Or I allow it to. I no there is more to me and there is something under all these layers and you have helped me experience glimpses of this. But if you could just help me understand a little more about this thing the ego that rules so many. I'm sorry if I'm struggling to understand fully.
The ego this creature you are right is not in my experience it is no were to be seen. Perhaps I have already answered my questions about the ego.
Thank you Jon
Shirley

[Shirley777]

I did some reading and found this is this what I'm trying to understand:
This false sense of self is also referred to as the egoic self, and often is called "the ego".

Who you are then becomes conceptual. The term "I" then becomes a concept. You believe that form makes up who you are - your thoughts, emotions, name, body, possessions etc. are all invested with a sense of self, a sense of "I".

You then have a voice in your head that does not stop talking, judging, commenting on everything that happens, did happen or might happen. Life becomes completely conceptual, and you believe that the "voice in the head" (or sometimes "voices") is who you are. "This is me talking" says the voice in the head.

Who you think you are then basically consists of a bundle of mental-emotional thought patterns that have been conditioned by the past, looking to the future for relief of it all.

This identification with form, particularly thought and emotional forms, is where most of humanity's suffering and so-called "evil doings" arise. This is also where the fear of death comes from.

[Shirley777]

Cont: So if you are not your thoughts, emotions, not any physical form including your perceived physical body, then what are you?…

…You are awareness, aware that there is a thought, aware that there is an emotion, aware that there is a body, aware that there is a sense perception, aware of any egoic behaviour and attachment within yourself. You are the spacial awareness within which it all happens. You are actually not a "person" at all, but a field of pure awareness, pure consciousness.

If it were not for the awareness that you are, how could a thought, emotion, or any form even be perceived? Behind every thought and emotion is a still, aware consciousness that allows everything within it to be. This is who you are.

[Shirley777]

I'm sorry it takes me a while sometimes to understand and absorb. I keep going backwards and forwards but I'm just trying to make sense then I can accept it. I no I have difficulty learning and it frustrates me at times but it also drives me to get to the truth. Thank you for your patience i am lucky to have found you and very blessed.
Shirley

[JonathanR]

Hi Shirley,

Just a very quick post. I'll have time to write later today.

Please disregard what you read. We can discuss all this fully but don't just accept what you read in the book. You were/are doing really well without the book and the confusion you experienced often comes before things suddenly make sense, so in ts self is not a bad thing.

I'll write later,

Jon

[Shirley777]

Thank you. I found it on the internet I'm sorry I was trying to make sense of things and not make things difficult for you. But I understand that this is part of the process and will stick to reading your posts. Thank you very much your time and kindness is really appreciated.
Shirley

[JonathanR]

Hi Shirley,

Don't worry about having read some ideas. But thank you for agreeing to stick to this conversation for now. The thing about this guiding is that I will tend to ask questions so that you can look directly at your own experience to see what the truth may be.

I don't notice a self creating the thoughts I have no control over them they just happen. And yes it feels like I'm having them but clearly not as I don't have control over them. But Jon where do they come from and why do they happen. Are the thoughts what is referred to as the ego.

Going back a few posts this is what your first answers was. And it is a very good answer based on looking at immediate experience. It is great that you noticed that thoughts seem to just happen and there is no control over them.

'Where thoughts come from' is thinking about thoughts as if they were objects in space. Is it possible to see where thoughts 'come from'?

Thoughts certainly seem to appear and disappear and it doesn't seem possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, does it? Might that suggest that there isn't actually a 'self' that could prevent thoughts? Important Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, including the thought 'I'?

When you talk of 'ego' my feeling is that there has been a belief in this thing, almost as if it had a separate will of its own? Perhaps the tendency of thoughts to just appear gave the impression that there was an entity 'ego' that was having all sorts of ideas, some of which were not welcome or attractive? Quite a few thoughts are not particularly attractive but is there anyone or anything 'there', 'having thoughts' or, from experience, do they just come and go?

Love,

Jon

[Shirley777]

Jon yes I can't find where thoughts come from and the I, and have no control over them. May I ask why they happen.

The ego I have got hooked on this like it has a will of its own probably because I studied psychology and learnt about the ego and the super ego and the id many years ago. I found it hard back then to accept and understand it so to relearn it all again differently was hard. Well I was making it difficult, because in reality it doesn't exist when I simply try to find it.
I feel connected to you and feel your love Jon, thank you.
I am experiencing moments of nothingness where I feel light and free and peace.
Love to you
Shirley