The Gate

Mornin Jim!

Yes, I see very clearly that's true, Sarah. A bunch of disembodied thoughts quarreling with each other...

Did you look at this bit? Do thoughts also arise in/to what is? How are thoughts different from any other arising? Doing happens, seeing happens, hearing happens and so to do thoughts. Do you see? And that which criticizes the thought arising is also …..a thought!

OK – good that its out in the open! What says that thought ruins it all? That which notices everything – does that say thoughts shouldn’t be there? Is that which notices bothered by thought? No? So what is? What says thought shouldn’t be part of what is?

Another thought! Okay, I got it :) Nothing ever says anything except for thoughts.

OK – can you gently go around the thought to that which notices? It that bothered by anything that arises? Ever? Drop in and look as often as remembering happens.

Me, I'm being disturbed by thought, to the extent that there really is a "me," which I suspect there probably isn't. Although until that is totally apparent I must assume there is...LOL

OK – so you looked and couldn’t ‘see’ anything?
That which notices – is it bothered by thought?
The rest is looking for this disturbed ‘you’ again and again. WHAT is disturbed? Can you see that?

I'm not sure what you mean with your question about whether I think those interests will vanish? Can you elaborate a bit on that, please, Sarah?

Just that – do you think you wont like mythology anymore.

Are thoughts afraid that they will no longer have a purpose?

Yes they are. I know its a silly idea when seen in perspective, but they still do...LOL

OK – so what are they saying when they are afraid? Give me a few examples and lets see if they really are B.S.! Have beliefs changed since you were a child? Do you think thoughts stay the same?

I'm sorry to keep saying that this sounds like nihilism. I know its not really nihilism, but at a certain point in the inquiry, it becomes extremely difficult to differentiate between them. What I'm getting from it right now--and yes, I concede that this is just more thoughts--is that all that is happening is an apparently never-ending stream of disembodied, cloud-like thoughts that have absolutely no significance other than to apparently convince themselves that its totally the opposite (i.e. that there are solid, objective entities living in a time-space bounded world of cause-and-effect, etc.). Am I finally starting to get it, Sarah? Not that there is any need for me to, as that would just be another thought saying that!

Nothing to apologise for. OK so you see thoughts like clouds floating around. Have you looked for their power? Can they ‘do’ anything?
Have you ever planned to say something and out of your mouth comes something completely different? So I know they try and predict the future (something to do with a survival mechanism?) but does what they plan really happen in the exact way they thought? Have a look.

Actually, if I'm correct in my above statement, then nothing is happening. There can be no writing or anything else. Something appears to be "noticing" things happening, but total subjectivity cannot be an object/thing, and so that would be the end of the whole story (that is, inasmuch as taking any perceived phenomena as truly existent).

Well yes – but what is experienced? Do you experience nothing happening or do you experience writing happening? Or is it experienced as both simultaneously?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Good Morning, Sarah,

Did you look at this bit? Do thoughts also arise in/to what is? How are thoughts different from any other arising? Doing happens, seeing happens, hearing happens and so to do thoughts. Do you see? And that which criticizes the thought arising is also …..a thought!

Wow, yes, I see that!

OK – can you gently go around the thought to that which notices? Is that bothered by anything that arises? Ever? Drop in and look as often as remembering happens.

Yes, I did that as much as possible yesterday. And no, based on that looking, I can't say that that which notices is "bothered" by anything that arises. Its only the thought that seems to be disturbed.

OK – so you looked and couldn’t ‘see’ anything?

Yes, correct. What is it that could "see"? That would require a subject and an object, and basically here there are no objects, so nothing to see and nothing to be seen. Are we on the same page, Sarah?

That which notices – is it bothered by thought?

No, because when you dismiss the validity/power of thought, there is nothing to be disturbed.

The rest is looking for this disturbed ‘you’ again and again. WHAT is disturbed? Can you see that?

Nothing is disturbed in reality. Its just what we're referring to as a "thought" that is disturbed, but thoughts mean nothing, and whatever story they seem to be serving up are totally irrelevant (despite all intuition to contrary...LOL).

Just that – do you think you wont like mythology anymore.

Thanks for clarifying that, Sarah. Well, its not that fear not liking it anymore. Its just hard to imagine what role it will play when my current career trajectory is partly based on the acknowledgment of mythology communicating some fundamental truths of being (e.g. archetypes).

Are thoughts afraid that they will no longer have a purpose?

Again, I wouldn't describe it as "fear," but rather what's left of life if the mind's basic building blocks (as I understand them to be) are eliminated as irrelevant. As I mentioned yesterday, it seems all your left with then, is meaningless thought clouds floating by in infinite subjective awareness. In some ways that seems liberating, and definitely not something to fear. Its more like one wonders then if that conclusion is much better than submerging oneself in the belief of thought's significance. Its just a matter then of which ontological explanation for the appearance phenomena you want to go with (half-a-dozen of one and six of another). Does that make sense at all Sarah?

OK – so what are they saying when they are afraid? Give me a few examples and lets see if they really are B.S.! Have beliefs changed since you were a child? Do you think thoughts stay the same?

There are basically two types of thought that characterize my mind-set these days. The first one goes something like this:

"This situation is beyond hopeless. I've tried every possible solution to solve your problems and your life is even more screwed up than ever! A Masters degree, years of beating my head against the wall to get ahead in my career. 35 years of studying psychology, philosophy, retreats, seminars, seeking spiritual truth. I don't know why I'm making any effort anymore. I have nothing left in me. What's the hell am I supposed to do?!...."


Then the second, more positive, type of thinking (which usually happens after a particularly inspiring mediation session, walk in the woods, or after reading an insightful reading) goes like this:

"Despite all appearances to the contrary, deep down I KNOW that all is well, all is in Divine order. Time and space are an illusion. My higher self is creating my every experience for my greater good, no matter what my lower self tells me to the contrary. Its all for my greater growth, all part of the evolution of the soul, and I trust that the purpose of the illusion will all become clear eventually. Trust!"

It usually alternates between those two general types of thoughts, peppered with neutral, thoughtless, awareness. You'll remember when you asked me the percentages of the different types of thoughts/experiences, and that still holds. Does that help, Sarah? I can give more examples if you need them, but this is pretty typical of my thoughts these days. All variations on a theme.

Nothing to apologise for. OK so you see thoughts like clouds floating around. Have you looked for their power? Can they ‘do’ anything?

Thank you, Sarah. Yes, I've been looking at them on-and-off for years, Sarah, and while I understand what you're saying, they obviously seem to have some power (don't they?) or they wouldn't still be bothering me, right? That's a tough one for me to deal with.

Have you ever planned to say something and out of your mouth comes something completely different? So I know they try and predict the future (something to do with a survival mechanism?) but does what they plan really happen in the exact way they thought? Have a look.

I'm looking, Sarah, and yes, I agree that's the way it is to some extent. I agree that they aren't very dependable in their predictions, but overall, in my case, at least, they seem to have enough consistency, influence events enough, and have enough of a success rate in achieving their intent, that it seems impossible to just dismiss all that and say they have absolutely no power or significance. Is this all about making a leap of faith, and having the courage to deny the obvious?

Well yes – but what is experienced? Do you experience nothing happening or do you experience writing happening? Or is it experienced as both simultaneously?

I experience writing happening, but on closer examination it I unable to sustain the belief that its happening in reality, so I'm left in limbo! A sort of nondual purgatory....

What am I missing, Sarah?

Hugs of gratitude,

Jim

Mornin Jim

Yes, I did that as much as possible yesterday. And no, based on that looking, I can't say that that which notices is "bothered" by anything that arises. Its only the thought that seems to be disturbed.

OK – so I want you to keep looking into this any and every time that remembering happens. See if you can catch any emotion there what so ever? Is it ever not there?

Are we on the same page, Sarah?

Yes!

Again, I wouldn't describe it as "fear," but rather what's left of life if the mind's basic building blocks (as I understand them to be) are eliminated as irrelevant. As I mentioned yesterday, it seems all your left with then, is meaningless thought clouds floating by in infinite subjective awareness.

OK – lets assume there never was a you. And then it is discovered that there isn’t a you. What then changes. You said you understood what I have on all my posts at the bottom – read it again. Let it permeate. What is noticed?
Think of a young child – is the world meaningless to them? Or full of wonder under every stone?
When you went for your walk – how did it feel?
All these riddles and complications are created by what? Look behind the thoughts – is there confusion there?

"This situation is beyond hopeless. I've tried every possible solution to solve your problems and your life is even more screwed up than ever! A Masters degree, years of beating my head against the wall to get ahead in my career. 35 years of studying psychology, philosophy, retreats, seminars, seeking spiritual truth. I don't know why I'm making any effort anymore. I have nothing left in me. What's the hell am I supposed to do?!...."

When this happens – have you looked closely at it? What is all of this made up of? Do you see the love here? Is this true what is written here, outside of thought that is? Is it thought just wanting something other than what is?

"Despite all appearances to the contrary, deep down I KNOW that all is well, all is in Divine order. Time and space are an illusion. My higher self is creating my every experience for my greater good, no matter what my lower self tells me to the contrary. Its all for my greater growth, all part of the evolution of the soul, and I trust that the purpose of the illusion will all become clear eventually. Trust!"

Do you experience this? Or think this? Have you looked for this in evidence?

I've been looking at them on-and-off for years, Sarah, and while I understand what you're saying, they obviously seem to have some power (don't they?) or they wouldn't still be bothering me, right? That's a tough one for me to deal with.

So your saying thoughts have power – to do what – make you have emotion? If so be happy now – no thinking just do it! If not give me an example of what else they can do.
What is bothered here? When the bothered starts – look – what is bothered?

I'm looking, Sarah, and yes, I agree that's the way it is to some extent. I agree that they aren't very dependable in their predictions, but overall, in my case, at least, they seem to have enough consistency, influence events enough, and have enough of a success rate in achieving their intent, that it seems impossible to just dismiss all that and say they have absolutely no power or significance. Is this all about making a leap of faith, and having the courage to deny the obvious?

No – no leap of faith – that would be another thought – LOOK. What is your next thought – theres your proof. Predictions are usually based on memory – and then a ‘see, I told you’ thought! No need to comment just notice. What do thoughts know? Can they think?

I experience writing happening, but on closer examination it I unable to sustain the belief that its happening in reality, so I'm left in limbo! A sort of nondual purgatory....

Well to say nothing is happening is a thought isn’t it? Is the word water actually water? Can a label ever describe what is experienced? Is that which notices in limbo?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Mornin' to you, Sarah,

Thank you for your excellent pointers and your kindness in continuing to hash this out with me. I hope you see I'm trying my best to get to the bottom of it.

OK – so I want you to keep looking into this any and every time that remembering happens. See if you can catch any emotion there what so ever? Is it ever not there?

Yes, you're right about that. No emotions in pure awareness.

Are we on the same page, Sarah?

Yes!

Good to know...LOL

OK – lets assume there never was a you. And then it is discovered that there isn’t a you. What then changes.

That's a hypothetical situation I can't get my mind around! You're way beyond me there, Sarah!

You said you understood what I have on all my posts at the bottom – read it again. Let it permeate. What is noticed?

Yes, I get the basic gist of all this. I will let it permeate, and let you know if anything new is noticed.

Think of a young child – is the world meaningless to them? Or full of wonder under every stone?
When you went for your walk – how did it feel?

All I can do here is try to remember what my childhood experience was like, and it definitely was "full of wonder." In fact, it was filled with just about as much pain and confusion as my adult life has been. Its the chaos I experienced as a child that seems to have led to my spiritual search.

When I go for walks alone in nature these day, there is some relief from that and I feel a bit more connected to the whole, but nothing transformative, as you seem to be alluding to.

All these riddles and complications are created by what? Look behind the thoughts – is there confusion there?

I thought I understood what you meant earlier when you say, "look behind the thoughts," but now it really seems impossible. I'm trying to do that again right now, but how can you look behind thoughts when that's all there is (in terms of perceived manifestation). I don't "see" anything else than that. Sometimes the thoughts are good, sometimes bad, sometimes neutral. For the rest, its just unconsciousness or a thoughtless state which I can't access without it just becoming thought again.

When this happens – have you looked closely at it? What is all of this made up of? Do you see the love here? Is this true what is written here, outside of thought that is? Is it thought just wanting something other than what is?

You asked me for examples of the way the negative thinking manifests. I look at it constantly, but all I see is what I said in the previous paragraph. I suppose one could call it love, and dismiss it as just thought wanting other than what is, but that just leads me right back to what I was saying earlier about dismissing thought as meaningless not really eliminating the suffering.

Do you experience this? Or think this? Have you looked for this in evidence?

No, I don't really experience it. Its just another thought for which I have no evidence. Again, just responding to your request for examples as to how my thought patterns generally operate. I wish I could be more helpful there, but looking reveals that it just constantly goes in circles like that.

So your saying thoughts have power – to do what – make you have emotion? If so be happy now – no thinking just do it! If not give me an example of what else they can do.

I'm not saying that I can instantly command a thought to make me feel a certain way, but that my conditioning has programmed with certain thoughts and beliefs that color my experience. In my case, its been mostly a negative ride, with brief moments of happiness (and achieved through lots of work on myself).

What is bothered here? When the bothered starts – look – what is bothered?

All I can say is that thought is what is bothered, although that insight/understanding doesn't seem to help much.

No – no leap of faith – that would be another thought – LOOK. What is your next thought – theres your proof. Predictions are usually based on memory – and then a ‘see, I told you’ thought! No need to comment just notice.

Okay, will do.

What do thoughts know? Can they think?

Well they "appear" to think and know everything, and that seems to be sufficient for them.

Well to say nothing is happening is a thought isn’t it?

Yes, correct. Ironic, isn't it? It seems to be one of those zen-like or quantum physics-like paradoxes where it both is and isn't at the same time. I've come to accept that life is full of them.

Is the word water actually water?

No, its just a consensus concept referring to a collectively agreed-upon experience of something that is posited to be an independently existing object (in this case, some wet stuff we can drink and swim in).

Can a label ever describe what is experienced?

No, its always just a consensus concept which attempts to communicate what we believe to be a common experience.

Is that which notices in limbo?

No, but does that fact negate the constant effects of thought on my consciousness? In my direct experience, it does not.

Be well, Sarah. Looking forward to your response.

Big hug,

Jim

Good morning Jim!

Yes, you're right about that. No emotions in pure awareness.

Keep checking. And is it ever not there?

All I can do here is try to remember what my childhood experience was like, and it definitely was "full of wonder." In fact, it was filled with just about as much pain and confusion as my adult life has been. Its the chaos I experienced as a child that seems to have led to my spiritual search.

And was that spiritual search an attempt at not having chaos, confusion and pain experienced? Was it an attempt at having everything wonderful all the time – no more pain? There is nothing wrong with moving away from pain and confusion I might add – but be aware of what it is that is pushing forward to something other than what is. Do you see?

But the real question is who or what experiences pain and confusion – especially if that which notices everything isn’t bothered by any of it?

I thought I understood what you meant earlier when you say, "look behind the thoughts," but now it really seems impossible. I'm trying to do that again right now, but how can you look behind thoughts when that's all there is (in terms of perceived manifestation). I don't "see" anything else than that. Sometimes the thoughts are good, sometimes bad, sometimes neutral. For the rest, its just unconsciousness or a thoughtless state which I can't access without it just becoming thought again.

And is that space experiencing pain or confusion? If not – what is/does? Where is this experiencer?

I look at it constantly, but all I see is what I said in the previous paragraph. I suppose one could call it love, and dismiss it as just thought wanting other than what is, but that just leads me right back to what I was saying earlier about dismissing thought as meaningless not really eliminating the suffering.

But it isn’t based her and now is it? It’s a future projection isn’t it? Isnt that wanting something other than what is? Isnt it a story about getting somewhere else because here isn’t what should be happening?

All I can say is that thought is what is bothered, although that insight/understanding doesn't seem to help much.

No, but does that fact negate the constant effects of thought on my consciousness? In my direct experience, it does not.

Help what? Again – is this a wanting something other than what is – bothered is being felt but thoughts say it shouldn’t be ? Can you ‘be’ with this bothered? Can you just sit and stay with it? Can you do that with any so called negative emotion or feeling?
Big hugs Sarah xxx

HI Sarah,

Thanks so much for your kind efforts to guide me further with this. Here we go!

Keep checking. And is it ever not there?

Please clarify your question for me, Sarah. Are you saying that since awareness is always present, and there is no emotion in awareness, that emotion is non-existent?

And was that spiritual search an attempt at not having chaos, confusion and pain experienced? Was it an attempt at having everything wonderful all the time – no more pain?

The spiritual search was an attempt to find meaning in it and place the pain in a more positive and realistic perspective. To take a very traumatic childhood and rather than succumb to an interpretation of it that would lead to self-destruction, use that energy to grow into a more fully evolved being, transforming it into something that would contribute to the greater good of our planet.

There is nothing wrong with moving away from pain and confusion I might add – but be aware of what it is that is pushing forward to something other than what is. Do you see?

No, I still can't see what it is. I keep running into the same problem I alluded to earlier, i.e., there's either thinking happening or unconsciousness (and in the latter case, nothing to "see," per se). That is, unless you are referring to thought doing the pushing, in which case, please see below.

But the real question is who or what experiences pain and confusion – especially if that which notices everything isn’t bothered by any of it?

That which notices everything (pure awareness) may not be bothered by any of it, but as long as who or what (thought?) experiences pain and confusion, it amounts to the same thing: suffering. To say otherwise is simply verbal/semantic gymnastics. Pain is pain, whether its thought that experiences it or the "what is that notices."

Am I missing something here, Sarah? One of my main spiritual practices for years was one form or another of trying to dis-identify from from my my thoughts/experiences and watch them from a neutral space. It sounds like you are recommending essentially the same thing. And while this practice/technique has certainly brought a good measure of peace to my life, the problem is that it is a hell of a lot of work to keep it up, and impossible to maintain all the time. Further, my conclusion is that it doesn't even come close to eliminating identification, but just mitigates the effects of it. In the end, I have to say that all these meditation/mindfulness techniques boil down to mental/verbal gymnastics and going in circles, ad infinitum. In fact, I fear that our conversation has devolved into that pattern.

Please tell me if you're suggesting something different, and if so, is there any chance you could try to take a crack at doing it without asking me a question and re-directing me to looking at what notices?

And is that space experiencing pain or confusion? If not – what is/does? Where is this experiencer?

Okay, I could tell you what I think you want to hear: No, that space is not experiencing pain or confusion. Its only thought that does. That experience of someone in pain/confusion is happening in pure awareness, and therefore isn't real. Its just belief going into the thought that makes it seem real. That insight is all that needs to be (or ever can be) realized, so -- voila! - I'm done....case closed :-)

Somehow, though, Sarah, that just isn't very convincing to me. I know you'll ask something like, "What is it that needs to be convinced?," but as long as the sense of not being convinced is there--whether its perceived as real of just thought/belief--then again, it amounts to the same thing, and we're back to circular verbal gymnastics, aren't we?

But it isn’t based here and now is it? It’s a future projection isn’t it? Isnt that wanting something other than what is? Isnt it a story about getting somewhere else because here isn’t what should be happening?

I've never quite thought of it like this, but your question begs the acknowledgment that awareness/perception is, was, and always will be a "story about getting somewhere else" than what is. I'm afraid that's just the nature of the beast, as far as I can see. Acknowledging that reality, however, doesn't give one much motivation to continue one's inquiry. One eventually either just throws up one's hands and falls into:

1) Nihilism

2) Stoicism

3) A simple religious faith where one just "trusts the Lord."

I really don't see any other option, based on this inquiry, thus far.

Help what?

Me, for one :)

Again – is this a wanting something other than what is – bothered is being felt but thoughts say it shouldn’t be ?

Touche', I concede that, Sarah, 'a la' my above responses. But then so what? Who cares = Nihilism.

Can you ‘be’ with this bothered? Can you just sit and stay with it? Can you do that with any so called negative emotion or feeling?

And so we circle back again to what I mentioned above. I can--and frequently do--"be with it" all day long, but such a practice just leads to a nihilistic outlook.

Sorry, Sarah, you said you liked difficult. There it is. If I'm wrong here, is there anything else you can say about it?

Thanks again for your diligence and dedication in seeing this process through.

Peace/Love,

Jim

Good morning Jim

Please clarify your question for me, Sarah. Are you saying that since awareness is always present, and there is no emotion in awareness, that emotion is non-existent?

No – just asking if that which notices is ever not there? Not accessible? Emotion is experienced isn’t it?

The spiritual search was an attempt to find meaning in it and place the pain in a more positive and realistic perspective. To take a very traumatic childhood and rather than succumb to an interpretation of it that would lead to self-destruction, use that energy to grow into a more fully evolved being, transforming it into something that would contribute to the greater good of our planet.

Without wishing to upset you here – is it seen that all of this is story?

No, I still can't see what it is. I keep running into the same problem I alluded to earlier, i.e., there's either thinking happening or unconsciousness (and in the latter case, nothing to "see," per se). That is, unless you are referring to thought doing the pushing, in which case, please see below.

Well – what wants? Outside of thought is there wanting or desire? If not – then its in thought only – thought wanting something other than what is – now look.

That which notices everything (pure awareness) may not be bothered by any of it, but as long as who or what (thought?) experiences pain and confusion, it amounts to the same thing: suffering. To say otherwise is simply verbal/semantic gymnastics. Pain is pain, whether its thought that experiences it or the "what is that notices."

But is it yours? Do you own it?

Am I missing something here, Sarah? One of my main spiritual practices for years was one form or another of trying to dis-identify from from my my thoughts/experiences and watch them from a neutral space. It sounds like you are recommending essentially the same thing. And while this practice/technique has certainly brought a good measure of peace to my life, the problem is that it is a hell of a lot of work to keep it up, and impossible to maintain all the time. Further, my conclusion is that it doesn't even come close to eliminating identification, but just mitigates the effects of it. In the end, I have to say that all these meditation/mindfulness techniques boil down to mental/verbal gymnastics and going in circles, ad infinitum. In fact, I fear that our conversation has devolved into that pattern.

Well if the problem could be solved IN thought – you would have done it by now wouldn’t you? Have you found what you were looking for? No – so your looking in the wrong place. Has all this thinking solved anything? Or just created more suffering or confusion?

Is the content of thought real? Not asking if thought is experienced – just the content. For instance your past – what is actually being experienced there – the past or a thought? The answer is found in what is actually experienced NOT what thought says is experienced. That takes looking again and again and again! Onion peeling Jim! One layer at a time!

Okay, I could tell you what I think you want to hear: No, that space is not experiencing pain or confusion. Its only thought that does. That experience of someone in pain/confusion is happening in pure awareness, and therefore isn't real. Its just belief going into the thought that makes it seem real. That insight is all that needs to be (or ever can be) realized, so -- voila! - I'm done....case closed :-)

Now go look and SEE this!

Somehow, though, Sarah, that just isn't very convincing to me.

That’s because you are waiting for thoughts to be convinced. And that isn’t going to happen! And yes – SEE what needs to be convinced here!

I've never quite thought of it like this, but your question begs the acknowledgment that awareness/perception is, was, and always will be a "story about getting somewhere else" than what is. I'm afraid that's just the nature of the beast, as far as I can see. Acknowledging that reality, however, doesn't give one much motivation to continue one's inquiry.

Have a look and see how much of this happens.
Is that because you want something different from this answer?
Motivation may or may not happen – the rest is story – if you have had enough that’s perfectly OK Jim. You are free to leave anytime you like. If you need time to digest – that’s fine too. Im here for as long as you wish to speak with me.

But then so what? Who cares = Nihilism.

Future thought sending you out of what is?

And so we circle back again to what I mentioned above. I can--and frequently do--"be with it" all day long, but such a practice just leads to a nihilistic outlook.

Is nihilism experienced all the time? Is it permanent? Or is this a guess based on thoughts? And if it is experienced – are you ‘being’ with it – or resisting it?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Good Morning, Sarah! Great to hear back from you, as always :)

No – just asking if that which notices is ever not there? Not accessible? Emotion is experienced isn’t it?

Okay, yes, I will concede that that which notices is never not there. And yes, it is always accessible, but not always easily (e.g. when intense emotion is in play). Not sure where you going with your question about whether emotion is experienced, though. Yes, it is experienced, and as mentioned earlier in this paragraph, it seems to be the most significant obstacle to accessing the freedom pure awareness offers.

Without wishing to upset you here – is it seen that all of this is story?

Not upsetting me at all, Sarah, but thank you for your concern and checking with me on it. I'm just fascinated as ever, and trying to follow you. Yes, its seen that (looked at from one perspective) its a story. But even assuming it has no more (or perhaps less) meaning than a fairy-tale, the story is real enough to me to where its a distinction without a difference.

Well – what wants? Outside of thought is there wanting or desire? If not – then its in thought only – thought wanting something other than what is – now look.

Yes, Sarah, I agree with you that there is no wanting or desire outside of thought. In fact, I think I've been pretty clear that I don't think that anything exists outside of thought. The problem is that thought is there all the time, isn't it? Or if its not, it doesn't matter anyway, correct? So to say its "only thought," is like saying, its "only money," when its obvious you need money to survive. Or, "Its just air," when you need air to breath. You see, in my direct experience, thought is integral to experience, so to dismiss it as "only thought," doesn't do much to convince me its as trivial as you suggest, in the grand scheme of things. Sure, whenever I die, it presumably won't be there anymore. But until then, its basically what you're dealing with, in this dimension at least, no?

But is it yours? Do you own it?

Ultimately, I don't see that it makes any difference whether its "mine" or just floating around out there as a disembodied "story." Its still real enough to me to where I have to deal with it (whether I believe in it or not).

Well if the problem could be solved IN thought – you would have done it by now wouldn’t you? Have you found what you were looking for? No – so your looking in the wrong place. Has all this thinking solved anything? Or just created more suffering or confusion?

Great point, Sarah! Again, I agree with you in essence here, but for all practical purposes, admitting that thinking hasn't solved any of my suffering doesn't give me anywhere else to go with it (that I've found so far). You're statement here reminds me of a spiritual guide I had when I was in my 20's who said, "Maybe the answer, Jim, is that there is no answer." Sounds wonderful, of course, but it still didn't do anything to point me in a direction that would bring me any solutions. Hence, the search continued. So with all due respect, Sarah, I'm still wondering, what's the difference here?

Is the content of thought real? Not asking if thought is experienced – just the content.

As I said before, my perception is that yes, the content of thought is real when looked at from one perspective (materialism), and not real when looked at from another (Advaita).

For instance your past – what is actually being experienced there – the past or a thought?

A thought, but one so vivid and intense so as not to possess any qualitative difference to my experience, whether I label it as real or imaginary.

The answer is found in what is actually experienced NOT what thought says is experienced. That takes looking again and again and again! Onion peeling Jim! One layer at a time!

Okay, Sarah, I'm taking your word that this is true. Hopefully, I've at least peeled off the first layer by now? I know its off the subject a bit, but how do you measure such a thing anyway, I'm wondering?

Now go look and SEE this!

Believe me, I'm trying as hard as I can, Sarah! I'll keep trying too, but so far, something hasn't clicked to make that understand real in my present experience. The biggest problem I see is that the thoughts are just so powerful, you can never stay in pure awareness for long enough for it to become habitual. This is what gives me the sense that thoughts are more real than, say Advaita people, give them credit for. I'll keep challenging that notion with all I have, however, as I really despise the alternative...LOL

That’s because you are waiting for thoughts to be convinced. And that isn’t going to happen! And yes – SEE what needs to be convinced here!

Okay, thanks for that. I will sit with that today and see if I can see it.

Have a look and see how much of this happens.

Okay, yes, I'll keep looking for it.

Is that because you want something different from this answer?

Thought seems to want something different. I (separate from thought) is just hoping to realize that my being isn't just thought, at the end of the day!

Motivation may or may not happen – the rest is story – if you have had enough that’s perfectly OK Jim. You are free to leave anytime you like. If you need time to digest – that’s fine too. Im here for as long as you wish to speak with me.

Thanks again for checking in with me here, Sarah, but I'm determined to see this through to the end, wherever it goes (or until you get tired of me, whichever comes first...LOL). I'm really not sure what there is to digest anyway, so might as well keep going with it, as long as you're game. So I suppose that means the motivation is present, for whatever its worth.... I promise to keep you posted on this aspect of it, though, as we go.

Future thought sending you out of what is?

Or is what you're saying here merely another thought? Its all infinite regression!

Is nihilism experienced all the time? Is it permanent? Or is this a guess based on thoughts?

No, I hardly ever think about nihilism except in the context of this kind of inquiry. Its just that, despite my best efforts to find another analogy for what I'm hearing here, the word "nihilism" best approximates it. I don't feel any negative connotations with that word, by the way. Do you? I actually think its not a bad way to consider the ultimate reality of things. The only problem is that the embrace of that idea doesn't give one much more freedom than attributing religious meaning to life. I wish you could help me see it differently, if indeed this isn't what your pointing to.

And if it is experienced – are you ‘being’ with it – or resisting it?

Please allow me to answer your question with another question. If "what is noticing" is really what we're looking for here, and thoughts are irrelevant and powerless, then why are all these efforts needed to see through thought?

Thanks for doing your best to help me to see what you're pointing at. Despite nihilism, your caring means a lot to me! I just hope that's coming through my words.

Hugs,

Jim xxx

Good morning Jim

Okay, yes, I will concede that that which notices is never not there. And yes, it is always accessible, but not always easily (e.g. when intense emotion is in play).

OK – but that which notices also noticed intense pain or intense emotion didn’t it? And was it in intense pain/emotion? See if remembering happens and have a look and then I want you to smile! :)

Yes, Sarah, I agree with you that there is no wanting or desire outside of thought.

OK – so again – I want you to try and spot as many examples of thought wanting as you can. Give me a rough daily percentage – and each time you spot one – SMILE! :)

For instance your past – what is actually being experienced there – the past or a thought?

A thought, but one so vivid and intense so as not to possess any qualitative difference to my experience, whether I label it as real or imaginary.

OK – so if this pops up again I want you to write down whether sensations are experienced, feeling is experienced, emotion is and thought – rather than following content just be with it all – sit with it all. See if resistance is present, see if thought wanting something other than what is is present. If identification with thought happens – no worries just pick up noticing when remembering happens. All I need is a description of what is experienced here – no thinking or theory. OK!

Please allow me to answer your question with another question. If "what is noticing" is really what we're looking for here, and thoughts are irrelevant and powerless, then why are all these efforts needed to see through thought?

No, that space is not experiencing pain or confusion. Its only thought that does. That experience of someone in pain/confusion is happening in pure awareness, and therefore isn't real. Its just belief going into the thought that makes it seem real.

You answered it yourself :)
Im not going anywhere Jim. Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah,

Thank you for your continued compassionate guidance, heartfelt and with laser-accurate precision, as always! I am taking today to process your above responses further, and will be back with you on my findings tomorrow.

You're the best! Hugs -- Jim

Good idea!
Hugs Sarah xxx

Good Morning, Sarah!

Thanks for allowing me some time to reflect on all we've discussed to this point. Glad to be back but as you can see, after this, there doesn't seem much else to say.

OK – but that which notices also noticed intense pain or intense emotion didn’t it? And was it in intense pain/emotion? See if remembering happens and have a look and then I want you to smile! :)

You're right again, darn you! LOL

OK – so again – I want you to try and spot as many examples of thought wanting as you can. Give me a rough daily percentage – and each time you spot one – SMILE! :)

I see, there's no way to quantify it (even roughly) in terms of percentages. I seem to "remember" the wanting, but in retrospect its hard to say it was even there.

OK – so if this pops up again I want you to write down whether sensations are experienced, feeling is experienced, emotion is and thought – rather than following content just be with it all – sit with it all. See if resistance is present, see if thought wanting something other than what is is present.

Well, I did what you suggested here. No, none of those things you mention are present. They are simply thoughts wanting something other than what is present. Not reality.

If identification with thought happens – no worries just pick up noticing when remembering happens. All I need is a description of what is experienced here – no thinking or theory. OK!

Right, none of the things that thought tells you are really hear, except as imagination.

You answered it yourself :)

I guess I did. Very cool! Now what? Is that it?

Thanks for sticking with me on this.

Jim

Hey Jim!

Now what? Is that it?

You tell me! Has the illusion of self been revealed? If so what remains?

Is there any doubt still? If so where?

Is seeking still present?

Anymore questions? Anything else you want to look at? Shall we have a tidy up session?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Good Morning, Sarah,

You tell me! Has the illusion of self been revealed?

Yes, you definitely did your job, making me look at this thing so intensely and from so many different angles, the illusion of self just couldn't be sustained any further. Its amazing how it persisted for so long. I can see where I came very close to seeing through the illusion in my previous investigations, but I must have had some residual fear left that sent me back into the dream.

If so what remains?

Just simple awareness of what is happening now in terms of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations, and thoughts. All spontaneously arising in various patterns and falling away without resistance.

Is there any doubt still? If so where?

I'm trying to see if there are any more doubts, but amazingly I can't find any! That last struggle I with nihilism and your constant pushing me to keep looking and challenging me to quantify the supposed evidence of an independent self doing anything at all (versus simply watching experience unfold without a doer) seemed to have been the final straw with it.

Is seeking still present?

What would be doing the seeking and what could be found? There is obviously nothing but what is, as it is. If "seeking" (or anything else) arises, I see that its just more thoughts that refer to nothing substantial. Just a story.

Anymore questions? Anything else you want to look at? Shall we have a tidy up session?

No, Sarah, I don't see what there could even be to ask after this, although I appreciate your asking :-) So unless you have anything else to add, I guess we can call this the tidy-up session.

Its amazing how you did this, Sarah! Nothing happened, but it did. How wonderful.

Love and gratitude,

Jim

Right then Jim
Lets check then - l like to be thorough!!!!! Please answer in as much detail as you feel is needed. :)

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Anything else to add?
Hugs Sarah xxx