A guide request

[EmptySet00]

Keep looking at decision making as you go through your day. Pay attention to how decisions happen- what to eat, what to wear, where to go and when.

Pay attention to the relationship between thoughts and actions.

Do you sometimes do something unconsciously, then have a thought that you decided to do this or that?

Do you ever start to do something, then become more conscious of what you're doing and change your behavior?

Do you notice anything else interesting?

Let me know once you've looked at this for a bit.

[wigglyfish]

Hi ES, just checking in. I have been watching whats going on as I make decisions throughout today, and I have a few observations - that I will post tomorrow. This is quite a difficult and subtle exercise, especially reminding myself to observe whats going on at decision point - instead of just going through the motions out of habit - nonetheless I am finding it very interesting.

I would like to continue doing this tomorrow until I can clearly see whats going on if thats okay. I will check back tomorrow evening.

Thanks
A

[EmptySet00]

Thanks for the note. Yes, it's fine to wait to answer until you feel ready.

[wigglyfish]

I have been wrestling with this today, and have found it difficult to grasp what actually going on during the decision-making process. I made the following observations, sorry for the length:

The relationship between thoughts and actions
1) A thought appears as an image-thought or talk-thought.
2) A desire arises as a feeling-sensation or a talk-thought “I really want this or that”.
3) A decision is made as a talk-thought “I will do this or that”.
4) Action is taken
5) (Sometimes) a talk-thought arises “I did this or that” after the action, or an image-thought arises of myself performing the action.

A couple of other notes:

A decision appears to be actually made, however the decision is just a thought. Likewise, the other parts of the process are thoughts or sensations – the content “I” isn’t real – like the imaginary watermelon experiement. A thought may arise after the action that says something like “I did this or that” that makes it appear that an I decided to perform an action. In other words - (5) fills in in the gaps.

Thought (5) doesn’t always appear. Sometimes I perform habitual actions that are not claimed by the I-thought. Sometimes thought (5) doesn’t appear until hours after the action has been performed. But in remembering the action, thought (5) claims “I did it”.

Here’s a couple of practical examples I noted today.

Example 1. Filling up the birdbath in my garden
1) See the birdbath (Seeing-Sensation)
2) “The birdbath is dry” (Talk-thought)
3) “Shall I refill the birdbath?” (Talk-thought)
4) “I will refill the birdbath” (Decision / Talk-thought)
5) Refill the birdbath (Action)
6) “I filled up the birdbath” (Talk-thought sometimes accompanied by image-thought)

Example 2. Waking up hungry and eating a bowl of coco pops
1) Hunger (Sensation)
2) Image of coco pops (Image-thought)
3) “I would really like some coco pops” (Desire Talk-thought)
4) “I’m never going to get back to sleep unless I have some coco pops” (Talk-thought)
5) Anxiety about not getting enough sleep (Feeling-sensation)
6) “Should I get a bowl or stay in bed?” (Talk-thought)
7) “I’m going to get a bowl of coco pops” (Decision / Talk-thought)
8) Eat coco pops (Action)
9) “I ate a bowl of coco pops, now I can sleep again” (Talk-thought)

Example 3. Being asked what to drink
1) ”I am making a hot drink, would you like a cup of tea or coffee?” (Question)
2) “No thanks” (Answer)
3) “Actually I would quite like a cup of tea” (Decision / Talk-thought)
4) “Actually can I have a cup of tea please?” (Question)
5) “Okay” (Answer)
6) “I chose to have tea (but could have had coffee)” (Talk-thought)

Do you sometimes do something unconsciously, and then have a thought that you decided to do this or that?

Yes, for example I did some hoovering the other day apprently completely unconscios. It was only when packing the hoover away that there was an after-thought "I just vacuumed the lounge".

Do you ever start to do something, then become more conscious of what you're doing and change your behavior?

If you mean like realizing halfway through dinner that I'm wolfing my food down in front of guests, then yes I change my behaviour accordingly when I become more conscious of my actions.

I'm still looking at this, I think I need to examine a few more day to day decisions - especially regarding the last couple questions you asked - but this is what I can see so far.

[EmptySet00]

This is all really good noticing! Keep it up!

The basic question to focus on is: Is there a you, the decision-maker?

Keep looking for a while, then write back with more observations and an answer to my question if you have it.

[wigglyfish]

Hello, I am still alive and kicking. Thu/Fri are busy for me, I usually don’t have the time to jump on my laptop until Saturday.

I have been investigating the “you” that makes/doesn’t make decisions for the past couple days, I’m not going to lie I have found it hard. I started to write down my thoughts on the matter in the hope that it would clarify things, and something clicked while I was doing so - it feels like I am onto something. I would like to keep looking at decisions for a day two to corroborate what clicked. This is what I wrote:

Is there a “you” making decisions?

Is my body making decisions? No. My body is made of sensations. Sensations can’t make decisions by themselves. So what about when my hand touches something hot… What makes the decision to withdraw my hand?

In situations such as this, decisions and actions happen automatically. I remember almost crashing my motorcycle into a HGV when I was a teenager. There was no controller or thought that told me “swerve left”. There was no time. It was reactive instinct to move my body in a way to avoid an accident.

But can a “you” be found here? No, looking now there is no “me” (in the sense of a controller or director) making a decision to move my body in particular way - such as finding the right keys on my computer keyboard to string this sentence together, or scratching my chin. It is habitual, instinctual, and automatic.

So is my mind making decisions? Does thought make decisions? It seems like thought influences actions, in the sense that:

1) A thought about cake arises
2) A desire to eat cake arises
3) A decision to buy a cake arises
4) The cake is purchased and eaten

However, a “me” does not select thought (1) – it just arises, nor does it select the desire to eat cake – this feels like a chain reaction to the former.

Here’s the tricky part for me. When thought (3) arises – why/how is the thought “yes, I want cake” or “no, I will leave the cake today” selected (not to mention many other thoughts such as “not now, perhaps later”), and what comes to that decision? It feels like the decision appears - poof! - “yes, I want cake”, but at the same time it feels so real that “I” made the decision.

Another example – I can think “I am going to raise my right hand” and then raise it. It really feels like “I” conjured up the thought, and then the body of “I” raised my right hand in response.

(This is where something clicked)

Ah… but in the after-thought (““I” conjured up the thought, and then the body of “I” raised my right hand in response”) the “I” or the sense of “I made the decision” (the sense that there is an “I” who is controlling / making decisions) is created by thought.

…So “I” is an afterthought. Everything from (1) – (4) spontaneously arose and happened under its own volition, but the thought “I” claims the whole process, kind of like filling in he gaps.

In other words:

Thoughts arise, true.
Desires arise, true.
Decisions are made, true.
Action is taken, true.
Did the thought “I orchestrated the whole process” arise, true.
Did an “I” actually orchestrate the whole process, false!

Does this make sense?

[EmptySet00]

Very good looking, Andrew!

If it feels like the question of whether the you-making-decisions exists or not is still not clear, here are some other exercises:

Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared? Is there a you choosing the number, or did the number just pop up?

Try this one first thing in the morning after you wake up. Can you see a self making you leave the bed? Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from? What makes the body get up, a you that commands the body?

What about sitting down in a chair, or getting up? What makes the body sit down or get up from a chair?

Keep up the good work!

ES

[wigglyfish]

Hello and thank you for the words of encouragement.

I can’t find a “you”, “me” or a central entity making decisions. A “you” isn’t needed to tell me which foot to place in front of the other when walking, or whether I need to take another breath.

When I pick a number between 1 and 20, the number just pops into awareness – there is no you-decision-maker pre-selecting a number and saying “twelve, not ten”. The thought “twelve” just appears.

When I am lying in bed in the morning there is no you-decision-maker that makes my body get up and out of bed – it just happens. There may be thoughts “I should get up now”, “I’ll get up in five minutes”, “I’ll stay in bed longer” etc, but they do not drive my body out of bed – they are just thoughts. The majority of time, I'm straight up when my alarm sounds, and there’s definitely no “you” making that happen – there’s not even thought present – just habit.

A decision is (appearingly) made, but not by an independent entity/orchestrator. The decision is a thought – a spontaneous thought, i.e. its not calculated. The “I” thought creates the sense of “you” making it appear that there is a real “you” making a decision – both before, and after the decision is made.

“Shall I pick chocolate or vanilla?” (Pre-decision thought)
“Vanilla” (Decision thought)
“I chose vanilla” (Post-decision thought)

In retrospect it seems a bit absurd that a commanding “you” could make decisions, a director of the mind and body – but I suppose it’s easy to get mixed up seeing as thoughts appear to arise in a localised head/brain/behind-the-eyes region of the body.

In short, no I can’t find a you-making-decisions!

[EmptySet00]

So, we've looked at sensations, thoughts, and actions.

Is there anywhere else that self could be hiding? :)

[wigglyfish]

Well, there is still curiosity. If I am not sensations and thoughts, nor is there a self directing and controlling the body and mind, then what am I?

There is a sense of being. Experience is happening to ??? (awareness?). The closest I get is if I relax attention and observe passively without judgement. It feels open and peaceful. It's not super-duper transcendent - but it feels like home base. The phrase "it says yes to everything, and no to nothing" comes to mind. Is that what I am?

As a side-note, I have found this investigation quite amusing lately - there has been lots of spontaneous laughter and joy at the notion of there being no-self at the helm, this hasn't happened before.

Perhaps it's the recent sunny whether?

[EmptySet00]

Experience is happening to ??? (awareness?)

Is there someone/ something that experience is happening to?

[wigglyfish]

Hi, I am very sorry I haven’t replied sooner – it’s been a busy week, I will make sure I post something to let you know if I am away for longer than a day or two in future. Nonetheless, the investigation is still at the forefront of my mind, but I feel as if I am onto something perhaps(?).

Words are a bit tricky here, I’m not sure I expressed myself clearly in my last post. Essentially what I was trying to say was the following:

If there’s no separate self in/controlling the body,
And there’s no separate self in/controlling thought - but the separate self is a product of thought - an idea,
Then what is left?
What am I?
What is my true nature?

When I look into this it feels that the experience of thought, sensation and the world is being experienced by (for use of a better word) ‘awareness’ that is not a separate self, but is by nature impersonal and open to experience. The very same ‘awareness’ that you experience.

For example, I was sitting in my garden this evening, just observing things going on. The song of the birds, the colour of the grass, the thunderbugs flying around, the sound of the neighbours talking, the sound of traffic in the distance, etc. In that simple moment there was no sense of a separate entity “me/I/you” – thought wasn’t congealing into a reference of self. There was just the raw seeing, the hearing, the feeling, and the backdrop of ‘awareness’ (an open “yes-ness”) that is prior to these phenomena - from which they arise. That feels like what I am, my true nature – or “home”.

In answer to the question; is there someone/ something that experience is happening to?

There is no ‘someone’ that experience is happening to – in the sense that there is no separate self.
There is no ‘something’ that experience is happening to – in the sense that there is “no-thing” that can be pointed to or objectified, that experience is happening to.

Experience is happening – but what is knowing experience happening? What is experiencing experience?

Does this make sense, it feels like my mental boundaries are being seriously pushed here.

[EmptySet00]

Great looking!

Do you experience awareness apart from whatever you're experiencing?

[wigglyfish]

I find it quite helpful to write this all down, so sorry about the length. So I was inquiring into what it is that experiences experience, and your question to me was: Do you experience awareness apart form whatever you are experiencing? Which is another was of asking:

- Is awareness separate from experience?
- Are awareness and experience two things?
- Can one be without the other?

To investigate this I asked myself what would my awareness without experience be like? I suppose that this would be equivalent to some kind of void. But then, to say I was in a void would be to admit that I was experiencing void-ness, which is an experience.
Perhaps deep sleep is awareness without experience, because each night I lose experience when I go to sleep. There is no thought, sensation or world during deep sleep and the reference of ‘I’ isn’t present – which leaves only awareness, or awareness without experience. On the other hand, I can't be aware during deep sleep, I can only say after deep sleep has occurred that there was no experience, only awareness.

So technically I could say that there is awareness without experience during deep sleep, but I could not admit that I can experience awareness without experience. Thus, no – I never knowingly experience awareness apart from experience.

Then what would experience be like without awareness? I don’t think its possible. My first instinct would be to say ‘auto-pilot’ mode, but even then there is something experiencing the colours and sounds and sensations even if they aren’t consciously experienced. In other words, awareness is always present for experience, but sometimes (such as in auto-pilot mode) not ‘knowingly’.

To take it a bit further, I took a slice of awareness – hearing next doors dog barking.

- The experience of the dog barking (hearing) appears to/in awareness.
- The experience of the dog barking (hearing) is not independent or separate or outside of awareness.
- I don’t experience the barking of the dog as a “non-experience” that becomes an “experience”.
- Thus no experience, whether its hearing, seeing or another sensation is experienced apart from awareness.

In short, I never experience awareness apart from whatever I am experiencing, neither do I experience experience apart from awareness. Which must mean that they are two sides of the same coin. Awareness and experience.

I’m not sure I would venture to say that awareness = experience, because it is still my impression that experiences of the mind, body and world are for lack of a better word ‘known’ by the presence of awareness – as in, awareness is the background to which they appear.

Reviewing this, I'm certain I have answered my previous question:

what is knowing experience happening? What is experiencing experience?

Awareness is.

But then I think I have made a division between the ‘some-no-thing’ that witnesses (awareness) and that which is witnessed (experience), which I am not sure is true.

[EmptySet00]

Can you find this separation between what witnesses and what is witnessed, as anything but a thought?

Don't -think- about it this time. No hypothetical scenarios. Just see if you can find this separation anywhere but in thought.