Mindfulness,Meditation,and True Nature - Adam51387

[Adam51387]

How about the sense of the body as being the true self?

[Sarah7]

Hi Adam

Haha, its funny you should bring that up. While sitting my leg kept falling asleep and it was distracting my inquiry and focus, so i just stretched my legs out straight, there was no need to sit any paticular way at all. I am getting better at being with this awareness, but sitting does help me access it.

Are ‘you’ awareness?

it is difficult to access during the day with external stimuli and distraction. I think i need to be with it more to be able to see right...see i have already fallen into the mind in this very post hahaha

By the way this wasn’t a comment on whether you should meditate or not – simply looking to see if ‘this’ that notices everything is always there. Where is it then if it cant be found? Is it in thought? No – you already answered that! LOL. So is it in what notices that you have been externally distracted? Is it what noticed you had fallen into thought?
Was it distracted by thought? Was it bothered you had been distracted?

If forgetting happens – no worries! If worries – then what is that? Just pick up when remembering happens! OK. :)

How about the sense of the body as being the true self?

What is true self? Another thought label?

So let's have a little look at sensory experience. Seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling and tasting, and we are going to start with seeing.

Describe the experience of seeing step-by-step. In seeing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Go into detail. Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing.

Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Or is there only seeing? Notice the habitual thought, "That is a ……...", "I'm seeing that object"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience? What is your direct experience of this object? List your direct experience. Is it senses that tell you its there? Is it thoughts about the object, that tell you its there? Look very closely. Which comes first the sense or the thought? Notice the shapes and colours you’re seeing. Now just pay attention to how seeing happens. How many senses are there here - 1 or more? Take your time with it.

Can you find a dividing line between the seer and the seeing of the object? Are you doing the seeing? Or is it truer to say that seeing is just happening? Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the seeing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the seeing. Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and seer and an object? Or is there just one experience of seeing, with no one as a seer. Look closely.

Try it with various sights e.g. out of the window at a distant view. See if you can find a way to separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer. Where does one start and the other end?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Adam51387]

No, i am not awareness,because i care, i Compartmentalize, awareness doesnt.

True self, is a long winded concept. Ill have to get back to this as i had a long day and must get some sleep soon.

Well, seeing is done by the eyes, which relays back to the brain science has taught me. In other words this organism sees..
Seeing is done by the eyes alone. Another sensory input just confirms that its there, touching this paper bag for example, confirms theres something physically there that i am seeing.
If i close my eyes, i can still feel the bag without seeing it. The seeing comes first, then thoughts. Probably wouldnt be thinking about the details of this bag had i not seen it first. And by i, i mean this organism... I know what i must realize is that there is only seeing, but i am still identifying this organism as i , who sees...but awareness sees...i still think it is i who sees.it is senses that tell me its there. I will have too look at this more, i should get some rest. Thanks Sarah. XxXxxx

[Sarah7]

Hey Adam
Get some sleep and try this again when you have some time. OK!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Adam51387]

Good morning Sarah.

Seeing is right here. There is no depth to seeing. The things seen can be farther away or within reach, but the distance doesnt matter, it is all one layer being seen from one point.

When i look down at this phone i see my fingers touching the buttons. There are different colors, that helps distinguish. I know it is my fingers because i recognize them, the mind recalls. Apart from that, i feel them pressing the screen of the phone. But without the memory, the recalling of what my fingers look like, and without tying the feeling to the mind body connection, what is being seen is all one. Theres no way to seperate the fingers visual from the phone visual, or the ground visual. So seeing is done from one point. It is one dimensional..there is no seperating what is being seen without concepts and memory recall and other sensory input.

i see my door across the room. It is far away. I only know it is far away from my memory recall and from the fact it cant be felt. If i look down at my meditation blanket right beneath me, there is no way to seperate it,gauge its distance or distinguish it from the door and the floor without the concepts abd menory recall attached to it. The seeing is basically instantaneous. But the concepts and memorys of the things i look at are already preconcieved.

[Sarah7]

Hi Adam
Hope you had a good sleep!

Seeing is right here. There is no depth to seeing. The things seen can be farther away or within reach, but the distance doesnt matter, it is all one layer being seen from one point.

Fab! And does seeing happen whether attention is on it or not?

OK then. Onto hearing!
Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought, "Those are birds." Notice the habitual thought, "I hear that." Now just pay attention to how hearing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound? Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening? Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the hearing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the hearing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and hearing and a sound? Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer. Look closely. Try it with various sounds. See if you can find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer. Where does one start and the other end? So what do you see about the thought, "I'm hearing that sound"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?
What is a noise? Is that a label also? Is the sound there? Can you really know? Can you catch the labelling – ‘I’ hear that?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Adam51387]

Just hearing, this is coming a little easier, i looked at hearing while seeing and begin to realize, but that was then. Right now...i am hearing everything much in the same way seeing occurs. All the sounds,the tv ahead of me, the air conditioner behind, is all blurred into hearing experience itself. But it is happening from the point in which i sit, the awareness has a locale, and thats where i identify a self from. This point of awareness. Although nothing at this point can be really defined as a me. Feeling will be the most difficult to not identify with. The interesting thing about hearing that i notice is different from seeing is that it occurs in a 360 degree spectrum regardless of where my ears are pointed, the eyes only see that which is directly in front. Awareness seems to have a bigger hold on hearing in space/time

[Adam51387]

Oh, and seeing does happen whether you focus on it or not, same for all the senses. Goodnight Sarah! :)

[Sarah7]

Hi Adam!

Oh, and seeing does happen whether you focus on it or not, same for all the senses.

Good – just what I was going to ask in relation to hearing! LOL.

Just hearing, this is coming a little easier,

So could you find a separation between a ‘you’ and ‘heard’ and the ‘hearing’? Regardless of where hearing appeared to come from – if at all?

The interesting thing about hearing that i notice is different from seeing is that it occurs in a 360 degree spectrum regardless of where my ears are pointed, the eyes only see that which is directly in front. Awareness seems to have a bigger hold on hearing in space/time

360 degree? Check that again – is that a thought or an experience?
Do you feel clear with hearing?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Adam51387]

When you put it that way what is heard is just right here. Its one dimensional. These senses can happen simultaneously, but they dont tie back to a self....this being realized, i still struggle with the organism, the body.physical self

[Adam51387]

I can hear inside the Space my body inhabits!

[Sarah7]

Hey Adam

When you put it that way what is heard is just right here. Its one dimensional. These senses can happen simultaneously, but they dont tie back to a self

OK – Im just checking here – that this is checked and verified by you? Never take mine or anyone else’s word here – everything should be checked and verifies by yourself. OK!

this being realized, i still struggle with the organism, the body.physical self

OK – we can look more at the body – and below is a start. OK!

Touch the table with your eyes shut (or open). Pretend like it’s the first time you have ever touched a table. Go straight to the raw sensation/perception. What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts?
Does the sensation of touching come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function? Does this sensation come with a ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label? Is it one sensation/perception or two?
Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove. Notice your memories or references with which you compare the experience.
Sit with these sensations. Look at them. Look at the labelling e.g. table, hand. Look at the thoughts or story that attach at the end of this list if any. What is your direct experience of these words? Do they exist outside of thought? Are they sensations again? Are they just thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the sensation or the thoughts? Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in.

Sit on a chair with your eyes closed. Feel the Direct Experience of sitting there. Notice thoughts thinking, labelling and explaining. Notice memory too. Notice sensations experiencing. Notice the sensation of bottom on chair – what is that – a thought? Notice the ‘me’ ‘mine labels e.g. this is my bottom – but look closely at that sensation labelling – is it yours, or just coming and going along with thoughts, ever changing. Is it the thought that wants to own? How many sensations do you notice? 2? One bottom sensation, and one chair sensation? How is that possible? Where does one sensation end and another begin? Locate that line. Can you feel that line? Or is that thought? Can you sense that line – or is that thought explaining the sensation?

Do we experience sensations or do we experience sensing? For us to experience a sensation it would have to be independently walking around wouldn’t it?

Eyes closed. Turn your attention to your skin. Do you have Direct Experience of it being outside?

Do you experience a sensation inside another sensation? Do you experience a perception inside another perception? A sensation inside a perception, a perception inside a sensation? Do you experience a body in the world and a mind in the body? How can a body be in the world and a mind in a body? Do you experience a thought inside a perception or a sensation? How can you experience a thought inside a body or inside the world? Experience has no inside or outside – it is just experience seamlessly experiencing.

I can hear inside the Space my body inhabits!

Can you? Check – is it a thought?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Sarah7]

And Adam as well as the post above - Ive pm'd you look above on the purple bar - where it says messages!
Hugs S xxx

[Adam51387]

Hey Sarah!
Sorry i havent replied for some reason i was not seeing your response, i seen the pm. These questions are going deep, i have to make time today to really look at this. I will respond asap. Thanks xxxx

[Adam51387]

About the first question, I did verify it myself then, and now as i hear, there is still no depth to the birds chirping and the band saw running out my window, its a concept in my head that gives them depth. But the hearing of it couldnt be distinguished without thought.