The Gate

Hi James :)

List of (unrealistic) expectations:
-Inner talk containing phrases with "I" should stop
-Every movement should seem automatic with no "I"-thought claiming it.

Give me an example of what you mean here with 'I' just stopping. What happens when things happen automatically? How would it be without 'I' thought not claiming it?

No who, but feeling which thought interpretes as a frustration and adds it own comments.

Revise what thought is....How can thought add anything?? How can it add comments?

Tanya-D wrote:
I want you to really observe thought content/stories for 20 minutes or so. Watch them like you are watching TV. Answer where they come from? Where do they go? Is 'I' in there controlling anything? What is there? What is this inner talk really? A verbal stream of consciousness that thinks in words?

Sorry, need more time for this. Initial answers: Come from nowhere, go to nowhere, no controller, and three I don't knows.

OK, so now answer this question fully, please.

Also consider - what if this IS all that is . . what does that bring up? What if all that you have already observed is IT? Now what?

Tanya

Hi Tanya :)

Give me an example of what you mean here with 'I' just stopping. What happens when things happen automatically? How would it be without 'I' thought not claiming it?

Mainly that I-thoughts like "I should do this" "I hate this" etc. which contain "I" should stop popping up. But thoughts happen automatically, so maybe they have their worth too and there is no need to eliminate them (not saying that it is even possible).

OK, so now answer this question fully, please.

Thoughts come from "emptiness", they go to "emptiness", they came and go, no controller, inner talk is dialogue, verbalised thoughts.

Also consider - what if this IS all that is . . what does that bring up? What if all that you have already observed is IT? Now what?

Sense of relief.

Hmm, I was in the shower and something happened. It seemed like follows:

- There is only experience, no experiencer.
- Thoughts and feelings are part of experience.
- What is observed cannot be the self.
- There is nothing separate from experience, that means no "I" separate from it.

Is some of these incorrect?

Truth indeed p*sses you off :)


Thanks,

James

Hi James :)

Mainly that I-thoughts like "I should do this" "I hate this" etc. which contain "I" should stop popping up. But thoughts happen automatically, so maybe they have their worth too and there is no need to eliminate them (not saying that it is even possible).

How would it be without 'I' thought claiming the above? What is left? Without 'I', what is actually being described? Then ask, why would thought stop happening? Isn't thought part of Direct Experience?

Thoughts come from "emptiness", they go to "emptiness", they came and go, no controller, inner talk is dialogue, verbalised thoughts.

Perfect! So are you happy you've seen there is no thinker of thoughts or controller?

- There is only experience, no experiencer.
- Thoughts and feelings are part of experience.
- What is observed cannot be the self.
- There is nothing separate from experience, that means no "I" separate from it.

Is some of these incorrect?

ALL correct! :) Well done. So, is there a self anywhere at all, in direct expereience?

Truth indeed p*sses you off :)

Haha! I hear ya! You are really getting this now, just have faith.

Tanya

Hi Tanya,

How would it be without 'I' thought claiming the above? What is left? Without 'I', what is actually being described? Then ask, why would thought stop happening? Isn't thought part of Direct Experience?

I assume that thoughts would be eg. like this:
-There is a desire that this thought would not come into consciousness.
-There is a desire that this feeling would go away.
-Hey, there is a feeling of ~ here but it will go away.

So without "I" thoughts and feelings are left, and they are described.

Hmm, thought would not stop happening, "I"-thought... habit, I assume that then it would have no power.

And yes, thought is part of DE.

So are you happy you've seen there is no thinker of thoughts or controller?

Dammit. It is clear that if I just wait I cannot predict what inner talk will say next. Even in middle of sentence it cannot be predicted. But there is a vague feeling of "doing it". Wait, is this thought/feeling of doing it just nothing... Ok, more time please.

So, is there a self anywhere at all, in direct expereience?

There is breathing and looking... thoughts come and go, awareness is there. Feelings... Not that feeling that there is definitely nothing outside DE...

Some more expectations that pop up:

-There definitely will be click when I is seen through or feeling like you have escaped from grave.
-A mystic aura will come surround me after that.
-Everything will feel happier and lighter.
-No more problems in life.
-Instant peace.


Kind regards,

James

Hi James :)

I assume that thoughts would be eg. like this:
-There is a desire that this thought would not come into consciousness.
-There is a desire that this feeling would go away.
-Hey, there is a feeling of ~ here but it will go away.

So without "I" thoughts and feelings are left, and they are described.

Hmm, thought would not stop happening, "I"-thought... habit, I assume that then it would have no power.

And yes, thought is part of DE.

If I understand you correctly with the above, James, there is still 'controlling' happening here. What is in control?

Dammit. It is clear that if I just wait I cannot predict what inner talk will say next. Even in middle of sentence it cannot be predicted. But there is a vague feeling of "doing it". Wait, is this thought/feeling of doing it just nothing... Ok, more time please.

Sure, take more time with this. You are correct when you ask if it is just another thought, but it's a story inside the thought, right? Kind of like you see the movie screen, but the characters on it are unreal. The screen is always there, but different stories play out on that screen. The 'screen' being 'thought' in this metaphor :)

There is breathing and looking... thoughts come and go, awareness is there. Feelings... Not that feeling that there is definitely nothing outside DE...

Some more expectations that pop up:

-There definitely will be click when I is seen through or feeling like you have escaped from grave.
-A mystic aura will come surround me after that.
-Everything will feel happier and lighter.
-No more problems in life.
-Instant peace.

Yes, the expectations are in the way of really seeing through this. The feeling of nothing being outside of DE has been 'known' before, yes? And am I correct in understanding you want the exact same experience to prove that this is it?

So what is expectation? More thought stories? Can you find any of these expectations in DE?

Seeing through the illusion of self happens in a moment, James, like a blink of an eye. Acclimating this, allowing it to become embodied can take far more time, in most cases. There are very, very few people who 'see' and stay with that clarity :) Most of us have a 'aha' moment then all the doubts, beliefs, conditioning etc. starts to come up for processing. So, be honest here, are you waiting for that 'bells and whistles' moment when everything become perfect in your life - instant peace as you say? It may or may not happen. Your moment may have already happened, but thought story is demanding it be something else. Or we could say ego is getting in the way here and clinging on to an expectation/conditioning/belief structure. The shadow thinks its in control of the body, so to speak :)

All as this part of LU does is help you to have that moment of 'knowing' that self is just an illusion. Nothing more at this stage. The embodying of that insight deepens the more work you do in the other LU groups. If you so choose.

In the spirit of sharing' I went through the gate and would not believe it for several months. Beliefs/conditioning/self-thoughts kept suggesting I hadn't seen really seen it. This was absolutely NOT it! It was so ordinary!? Was this what I'd spent years searching for? What a joke!! :) Eventually that calmed down - it was followed by disappointment for a while because of the expectations, not un-similar to yours that had me wanting something other that what it actually was. This was understood and seen as a story. :) Then I realised that It is just a very simple presence and awareness. That's it!

I hope that helps.

Be well

Tanya

Hi Tanya!

If I understand you correctly with the above, James, there is still 'controlling' happening here. What is in control?

Great question!

There is no "I" that is in control of thoughts or feelings, they come and go by their own (usually in a response to something). And "I" thought is not there all the day (eg. daydreaming or sleeping), so then there is no control either. It's just sometimes when there is a thought that there is control about things. But I don't know the answer to the question. aargh.

Sure, take more time with this. You are correct when you ask if it is just another thought, but it's a story inside the thought, right? Kind of like you see the movie screen, but the characters on it are unreal. The screen is always there, but different stories play out on that screen. The 'screen' being 'thought' in this metaphor :)

Do you have another metaphor because this one at this moment I don't get :) Or can you rephrase it?

Yes, the expectations are in the way of really seeing through this. The feeling of nothing being outside of DE has been 'known' before, yes? And am I correct in understanding you want the exact same experience to prove that this is it?

Yes, and that state shall last forever!! :3 Jokes aside, "I think" that no feeling lasts forever so that would be impossible. But in daily life "I" thoughts are frequent, this feeling is not. Is that a "problem"?

So what is expectation? More thought stories? Can you find any of these expectations in DE?

Expectations are stories in thought. I cannot find them in DE.

So, be honest here, are you waiting for that 'bells and whistles' moment when everything become perfect in your life - instant peace as you say?

Yes or that mystical "click".

simple presence and awareness. That's it!

So how is it really? You did "saw" through something or at least were sure that there is nothing else to see? On mornings when thoughts are quiet there is something like this "awareness" but it disappears during the day when I have to interact with people.

Kind Regards,

James

Hi James :)

There is no "I" that is in control of thoughts or feelings, they come and go by their own (usually in a response to something). And "I" thought is not there all the day (eg. daydreaming or sleeping), so then there is no control either. It's just sometimes when there is a thought that there is control about things. But I don't know the answer to the question. aargh.

You kinda answered it! :) When there is thought, 'I' claims it by suggesting it is in control, right? Just like you said,
'It's just sometimes when there is a thought that there is control about things.' That's exactly right! When there is a thought that says it's in control - is it really? :) Thoughts don't control, do they? And 'I' is thought too, so that isn't in control either.

Do you have another metaphor because this one at this moment I don't get :) Or can you rephrase it?

Forget the metaphors. :) OK, thoughts of a lifetime are completely gone in this present moment, aren't they? Thoughts just come and go, as you have said. :) The ever-changing flux of thought is not our True Nature of who we really are - if they were they would be with us at all times but that is not in our direct experience . . .what is here all the time is presence.

So answer the following: Are you present? Do you exist right now? Are you aware right now? Any doubt about that? What IS is what’s happening before you have a thought about it . . .that is what we truly are, without any self in the way. Just raw, direct experience. So, right now, just observe the experience in front of you without making it into something; without giving it any meaning. Is self there?

Yes, and that state shall last forever!! :3 Jokes aside, "I think" that no feeling lasts forever so that would be impossible. But in daily life "I" thoughts are frequent, this feeling is not. Is that a "problem"?

Not unless you make a story out of it, by 'thinking' it is :) Thought rises and falls. It is part of DE. The illusion is stories that the self tries to tell itself to make sense of the DE. Does that make sense?

Expectations are stories in thought. I cannot find them in DE.

Correct! :)

Yes or that mystical "click".

Tell me what the mystical click is going to be like, and then look for it in DE. Is it there? Or is it another story you keep telling yourself? And one that is getting in the way of you seeing what you truly are?

So how is it really? You did "saw" through something or at least were sure that there is nothing else to see? On mornings when thoughts are quiet there is something like this "awareness" but it disappears during the day when I have to interact with people.

How is it really? Look at DE, it is there! There is nothing hidden from you. No conspiracy :) Your self is just adamant it has to see it in a specific way. But the self cannot see the Truth. The self is what is in the way. Just look at DE and tell me what is there, right now?

There is nothing to physically see. It isn't like the sun rise in the morning, it more like a moment of realisation that there is no Santa Claus. Life goes on exactly the same, but with a new 'knowing'.
Think of it like this; there is a moment of Awakening, the moment when you realise that self is not real, it is just a thought that is persistent and obsessive, and that is all it ever was - then deepening, or some call it enlightenment, takes us further to clear more of our perception. Like cleaning dirty windows :) The cleaner our perception, the more we see our True Nature which is simple awareness.

So, look at the self and tell me is it real (in DE) or is it just thought?

Good work James :)

Tanya

Hi Tanya!

You kinda answered it! :) When there is thought, 'I' claims it by suggesting it is in control, right? Just like you said,
'It's just sometimes when there is a thought that there is control about things.' That's exactly right! When there is a thought that says it's in control - is it really? :) Thoughts don't control, do they? And 'I' is thought too, so that isn't in control either.

Correct, I claims afterwards that it is in control. It even seems like that first there comes the action and after that the thought, so no "I" was in control. Thoughts don't control, the idea is absurd. Somehow it still might need looking.

So answer the following: Are you present? Do you exist right now? Are you aware right now? Any doubt about that? What IS is what’s happening before you have a thought about it . . .that is what we truly are, without any self in the way. Just raw, direct experience. So, right now, just observe the experience in front of you without making it into something; without giving it any meaning. Is self there?

No doubt. Hmm, this whole chapter has so much meaning... If "I" touch the table there is nothing between the feeling of touching the table and.. what? feeling of touching the table? "Between" word is extra? I don't find self outside of experience nor inside, only thing that points to it is thought. What does it mean, "without making it into something; without giving it any meaning."? :)

Not unless you make a story out of it, by 'thinking' it is :) Thought rises and falls. It is part of DE. The illusion is stories that the self tries to tell itself to make sense of the DE. Does that make sense?

Yes. Not using "I" thoughts is "burdensome".

Tell me what the mystical click is going to be like, and then look for it in DE. Is it there? Or is it another story you keep telling yourself? And one that is getting in the way of you seeing what you truly are?

Ok, I'll take it back, because I don't know how it would be like. But whatever it is it's not there. And yes, it seems to be another story.

How is it really? Look at DE, it is there! There is nothing hidden from you. No conspiracy :) Your self is just adamant it has to see it in a specific way. But the self cannot see the Truth. The self is what is in the way. Just look at DE and tell me what is there, right now?

Sound, sights, feelings, thoughts. That's about it. You want a longer answer? :)

So, look at the self and tell me is it real (in DE) or is it just thought?

Hmm, there is doubt. Story warning: You wrote about moment of realization that I think I didn't have. I cannot find an "I" but I would not say that I am 100% sure that there is no "I"! (again story?) Help, please :)


Have a nice friday evening :)

James

Hey James :)

Correct, I claims afterwards that it is in control. It even seems like that first there comes the action and after that the thought, so no "I" was in control. Thoughts don't control, the idea is absurd. Somehow it still might need looking.

That is perfect! Thoughts don't control and I/Self/me is an after-thought that makes experience personal. Before that, there is just experience. There is nothing more to understand. You got it! :)

No doubt. Hmm, this whole chapter has so much meaning... If "I" touch the table there is nothing between the feeling of touching the table and.. what? feeling of touching the table? "Between" word is extra? I don't find self outside of experience nor inside, only thing that points to it is thought. What does it mean, "without making it into something; without giving it any meaning."? :)

Absolutely right again! The only thing that suggest there is an 'I' or the self, is thought stories about self.
What does it mean, "without making it into something; without giving it any meaning." I meant see if you can just be with the raw (no 'I' or self) experience of what is happening without putting labels to it, or meaning to it. If I said, 'I think I'll go and make dinner,' notice how the self has claimed ownership. The only thing that is happening in that sentence is making dinner. That is what is happening. Making dinner is happening. That is raw, direct experience. See if you can try this exercise with some experiences throughout your day and write what you find.

Ok, I'll take it back, because I don't know how it would be like. But whatever it is it's not there. And yes, it seems to be another story.

It is a story, but investigate it for yourself :) What do you mean 'whatever it is it's not there?

Sound, sights, feelings, thoughts. That's about it. You want a longer answer? :)

Smells and tastes, and presence too. You know you exist, don't you? :) All senses make up DE, or you could even call it existence, and DE/existence is what you really are. When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing happening? Same with sound. Are you hearing something or is there just hearing? Just remember that we're only concerned with what is actually experienced, not thoughts you might have about the experiences.

Hmm, there is doubt. Story warning: You wrote about moment of realization that I think I didn't have. I cannot find an "I" but I would not say that I am 100% sure that there is no "I"! (again story?) Help, please :)

OK, what is the doubt? Another story? Or is this doubt in DE? Describe this doubt that is happening. And then tell me how it will be when no 'I' is 100% known.

You too, have a nice Friday evening :

Tanya

Hi Tanya :)

See if you can try this exercise with some experiences throughout your day and write what you find.

Well, today has been thought-filled day but anyway, I went to a walk. At moments it is easy to "stay" in the presence but talking/reading/thinking gets in the way. Am I supposed to focus on seeing/hearing etc. one by one? Or just to "presence"?

[Possible thought story warning: I realized that "I" haven't make some choices I thought I did. Instead I found stories concerning those choices. But if "I" "drop" the stories, what is left? It seems like all of the stories are fake, but there is feeling of liking some of them.]

I will continue this practice if it's ok.

It is a story, but investigate it for yourself :) What do you mean 'whatever it is it's not there?

Sorry, I just meant I cannot find it in DE.

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing happening? Same with sound. Are you hearing something or is there just hearing? Just remember that we're only concerned with what is actually experienced, not thoughts you might have about the experiences.

Maybe we (I) can investigate seeing, that's the only one which gives any "trouble" at all. There is sense of "I" doing the seeing which doesn't make sense, but it's there.

OK, what is the doubt? Another story? Or is this doubt in DE? Describe this doubt that is happening. And then tell me how it will be when no 'I' is 100% known.

It is story thought which claims that there needs to be a some kind of realisation, that means big feeling of something combined with thought that "I" have been seen through. And after that every time that it is investigated/asked, it's clear that there really is no "I". And after that feeling of relaxation when finally anything what has been postponed can be done now when search is over.

I have couple of questions even though you might make me answer :)

-Is there no one at all (eg. no controller at all) or there is something ("intelligence") controller which is not "I"?

-Free will/causality. Ok, if experience is all there is then no free will, but (forgive this silly story) thought comes that listening to certain song would produce positive feelings. Another says that there is no controller so that won't happen. But certain song is played and it produces a positive feeling. Ok, thought didn't come from "I", but was choosing to play it similar to choose the glass of drink? "I" didn't seem to produce the feeling, but the stimulus? Or maybe in other situation listening to that wouldn't have produced the feeling.

Ok, sorry for rambling. Thanks for the guidance :)

James

Ohh, I forgot to tell about eating.

I went with my food plate to sit. Just whe I was sitting down, there was a guy who came to sit at the same table. He said something, I don't speak the language of country where I live, so I didn't understand. Thought came that there was a free table, thought came that I don't wanna sit so close, thought came that I can go there. I went there and felt embarrased because I couldn't explain the guy why I went to sit somewhere else and thoughts we racing. Then suddenly I thought what had happened in DE. Sitting, raising, walking, sitting. But there was this story that was playing in thoughts! But not in DE :)

Hi James! :)

Well, today has been thought-filled day but anyway, I went to a walk. At moments it is easy to "stay" in the presence but talking/reading/thinking gets in the way. Am I supposed to focus on seeing/hearing etc. one by one? Or just to "presence"?

See if you can just observe talking/reading/thinking - same as when you watch TV. Just observe. What do you find?

[Possible thought story warning: I realized that "I" haven't make some choices I thought I did. Instead I found stories concerning those choices. But if "I" "drop" the stories, what is left? It seems like all of the stories are fake, but there is feeling of liking some of them.]

That's a pretty fantastic realisation, James! Well done! :) Yes, great idea to keep up this practice. OK, so what is left when all thought stories are dropped? Liking some of the stories at this stage, is fine.

Maybe we (I) can investigate seeing, that's the only one which gives any "trouble" at all. There is sense of "I" doing the seeing which doesn't make sense, but it's there.

Where is this 'I' that is doing the seeing?

It is story thought which claims that there needs to be a some kind of realisation, that means big feeling of something combined with thought that "I" have been seen through. And after that every time that it is investigated/asked, it's clear that there really is no "I".

Yaaay! :) Fantastic!

And after that feeling of relaxation when finally anything what has been postponed can be done now when search is over.

What do you mean here?

I have couple of questions even though you might make me answer :)

Of course I will! LOL :)

-Is there no one at all (eg. no controller at all) or there is something ("intelligence") controller which is not "I"?

How does it seem to you? :) Excellent question, by the way.

-Free will/causality. Ok, if experience is all there is then no free will, but (forgive this silly story) thought comes that listening to certain song would produce positive feelings. Another says that there is no controller so that won't happen. But certain song is played and it produces a positive feeling. Ok, thought didn't come from "I", but was choosing to play it similar to choose the glass of drink? "I" didn't seem to produce the feeling, but the stimulus? Or maybe in other situation listening to that wouldn't have produced the feeling.

Does thought produce a positive feeling? How do you know that? Is that another story that says that thought is the 'cause' of a good feeling? Does the song produce a positive feeling? Now you know that the self/I is just a persistent thought, how can it produce a stimulus? How can it do anything independently? Isn't this the old trap of looking for that which controls again? Check this out :)

I went with my food plate to sit. Just whe I was sitting down, there was a guy who came to sit at the same table. He said something, I don't speak the language of country where I live, so I didn't understand. Thought came that there was a free table, thought came that I don't wanna sit so close, thought came that I can go there. I went there and felt embarrased because I couldn't explain the guy why I went to sit somewhere else and thoughts we racing. Then suddenly I thought what had happened in DE. Sitting, raising, walking, sitting. But there was this story that was playing in thoughts! But not in DE :)

Wonderful!! : - D (big smile) Yes, the story played inside thought and the body had feelings which then got labelled as embarrassed and belief attached these feelings to the story. BUT - How do you know that was what was felt? When you actually sit with a body sensation, where is the name or label of that sensation in DE?

Wonderful work today James :)

Tanya

Hi Tanya :)

See if you can just observe talking/reading/thinking - same as when you watch TV. Just observe. What do you find?

Well, I don't watch much TV and when I do I blank out :) But; didn't have much chance to talk today. It was hard to read and at the same time observe. While thinking it was maybe little easier, but usually there is unconciousness of everything when thought is on so hard to say. When walking or doing something else it seemed bit easier. Had some glimpses of something which is hard to put in words but words "automatic" and "no effort needed" are maybe close. I'll continue :)

That's a pretty fantastic realisation, James! Well done! :) Yes, great idea to keep up this practice. OK, so what is left when all thought stories are dropped? Liking some of the stories at this stage, is fine.

Awkward moment when someone askes a 'Why?'-question? :D DE or what is actually happening is left.

Where is this 'I' that is doing the seeing?

Hmm, now it feels little bit of stupid again. No "I" that is "doing" the seeing but movement of eyes which causes feelings of "seer" which is located in eyes.

What do you mean here?

Hmm, might be in fact story! Some things like starting to read a book was not started because of wanting to focus on this thing. In DE: Book moved to corner, website opened.

How does it seem to you? :) Excellent question, by the way.

"Intelligence" "theory" seems truer, there is eg. "automatically" dodging when car is coming which would point to that there is something.

Does thought produce a positive feeling? How do you know that? Is that another story that says that thought is the 'cause' of a good feeling? Does the song produce a positive feeling? Now you know that the self/I is just a persistent thought, how can it produce a stimulus? How can it do anything independently? Isn't this the old trap of looking for that which controls again? Check this out :)

-Feeling seems to come before thought usually
-Yes, another story saying so
-Thought saying that it produces, in DE: song playing, feeling changing
-No "I" producing stimulus
-"How can it do anything independently?" - ?

Wonderful!! : - D (big smile) Yes, the story played inside thought and the body had feelings which then got labelled as embarrassed and belief attached these feelings to the story. BUT - How do you know that was what was felt? When you actually sit with a body sensation, where is the name or label of that sensation in DE?

There is no name, thought labels it so like you wrote. Another way of writing could be: Feeling hotness in cheeks (blushing) (but blushing is a another word/label).

Thanks :)

James

Hi James :)

usually there is unconciousness of everything when thought is on so hard to say.

Well spotted! Thought gets in the way of what IS - DE.

Had some glimpses of something which is hard to put in words but words "automatic" and "no effort needed" are maybe close. I'll continue :)

Great! Let me know what you find.

DE or what is actually happening is left.

Great, and do you find self in there anywhere?

"Intelligence" "theory" seems truer, there is eg. "automatically" dodging when car is coming which would point to that there is something.

What do you mean by theory? What is this automatic'ness exactly? Is 'self' in there?

-Feeling seems to come before thought usually

Great! That's right! Is there a self/I feeling anything in DE?

-"How can it do anything independently?" - ?

Can 'self' do anything independently? AND - what would it be independent from?

There is no name, thought labels it so like you wrote. Another way of writing could be: Feeling hotness in cheeks (blushing) (but blushing is a another word/label).

Excellent! And cheeks are not found in DE, are they? You have to rely on a mirror to see cheeks - and that is not DE, but a representation. :)

So, are you now certain there in no self?

Well done :)

Tanya

Hi Tanya,

Today observing the presence has been difficult, lots of thoughts and unconciousness. I'll continue, but here is what I got now:

Great, and do you find self in there anywhere?

Still looking.

What do you mean by theory? What is this automatic'ness exactly? Is 'self' in there?

I mean it's more likely that there is intelligence than the other option. And still don't know what is it exactly, word "instinct" comes to mind in this example. Eg. I am approaching a street, look right, car comes at fast speed, I pull back. No "I" or "self" there, the movement happens automatically.

Great! That's right! Is there a self/I feeling anything in DE?

Can you clarify, please? :)

Can 'self' do anything independently? AND - what would it be independent from?

Independent from what? Experience? It seems that there is nothing outside of experience.

So, are you now certain there in no self?

Still looking.


James