hi, i think i'm ready!

[No_One]

By meeting suffering fully I mean also accepting it, just seeing what it's about without trying to remove suffering. I'm not sure about suffering but all other 'negative' emotions have a purpose. And if you just live them fully you see there's not much wrong about them.

Getting back to the I topic ... How does it get from a simple physical action to 'I am typing a message' 'I am thinking'? Look at the "I" when it arises.

[josh]

By meeting suffering fully I mean also accepting it, just seeing what it's about without trying to remove suffering. I'm not sure about suffering but all other 'negative' emotions have a purpose. And if you just live them fully you see there's not much wrong about them.

ok, i disagree and think i have good reasons, but let's put that off till the end of this.

Getting back to the I topic ... How does it get from a simple physical action to 'I am typing a message' 'I am thinking'? Look at the "I" when it arises.

when i'm paying attention to the field of experience, it simply does not arise. as for when i pay attention... well i guess i couldn't tell you much about that, as i wasnt paying attention!

[josh]

ah a little addendum to what i just said. when i am paying attention, there is still this feeling of being, and other sensations which tell the mind that "i" exist, but they don't cause a problem in the sense that they do not sway whether i actually think i exist.

[josh]

alright, i think i've already "crossed the gate" prior to this interaction. what separates me from other gate-crossers is that, although i see that suffering is not self (just sensations occuring of their own accord) i differ in my approach to that suffering. i think you guys have taken the feel it, see that it is not self, not be swayed by it, make it not a problem, and tolerate it approach. this approach is fine, it is much better than being unaware of the fact that there is no self, being swayed by the sensations, adding extra emphasis to sensations, in this sense yes you have been liberated. you have taken a huge amount of suffering away from your experience, nice. but what tells you for sure that what is left can not be removed. if something must be tolerated, must be coped with, must be sublimated to higher goals... wouldn't it be better if that something weren't there?

other people have realized the truth of there not being a self, they have seen the sensations of being for what they are, but they have also decided that they would prefer the experience free of these compelling, unpleasant sensations. when you have strong attention, when you look right at these sensations, they hold no sway, but what about when you aren't paying attention? couldn't it be possible that you could not pay attention and the feeling of "I" would come back, and you could perhaps harm someone? is it also possible that although you see these sensations, they have some slightly subliminal effect on your behavior?

you can see these feelings of 'i' feelings of depression, anger, fear, desire whatever for what they are, and you can tolerate them, minimize their impact, not believe you exist, and your life will be better than if you didn't do this stuff. but the fact is, people have gone beyond the point of seeing things for what they are and then going forward and changing what those things are.

out of respect for the emphasis on this forum that direct pointing alone should be discussed, i won't go into discussing other practices, or any of that, but if you'd like to private message me i could talk a bit with you. i'm sure plenty of people will tell me that i haven't actually "crossed the gate" if i feel that suffering is a problem. i can't prove what i experience though, no other mind can see into mine, so that argument is an immediate dead end. but i know exactly your perspective, i've been quite able to look at my experience and see that it is not self, that all this stuff is just arising and passing away, that it has no significance, but i realized it is still unpleasant, and still it (subliminally) makes my actions harmful to others, and there is something further to attain.

to sum up, i've crossed the gate, there are other changes that can be made to consciousness that are positive even after there is no more belief in self, if you are interested message me, if not, that's fine go about your life

I'll leave you guys one little link, two people discussing what i'm talking about. one of them has been seeing everything as not-self and leaving it as it is, the other has gone from that point to the ending of that crap that you seem to just have to tolerate and see it for what it is. plenty of people have done it, i've already been at the seeing the crap and leaving it perspective, and now i've gone on and rid this body of lots of that crap, and it's made me enjoy life so much more, and be so much better to those around me. maybe i'm full of crap (to use crap in a different sense :)) or maybe, just maybe, just maybe! there is something that you guys aren't aware of yet. only you can prove to yourself whether this is legitimate or not.

here are the links, what harm could it do to listen?
part 1
http://www.interactivebuddha.com/files/ ... DonAF1.mp3
part 2
http://www.interactivebuddha.com/files/ ... DonAF2.mp3

now i'll leave ya be, try to be open minded, but if your not, i don't mind, enjoy your life to the extent that you can in your current state seeya!

[No_One]

If you say you've seen this let's confirm it and then we can discuss about other topics. Could you rant a bit about the following topics?

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of self is and how it works.
3) How does it feel to be liberated? What's the difference between before and after liberation?

[Ilona]

Well if you think you have crossed the gate, you haven't. Simple as that.
And if you think that seeing through illusion terminates all suffering- it's just an unrealustic expectation.
So you can run away and hide, or you can take a break, take a breath and jump back in.
It's not the method that fails- it's your resistance that is in a way.
How about setting up your intention to go through no mater what?
Your call.

[josh]

ok, i'll post one more time, but i'm not very interested in convincing you of what i have or haven't achieved, or forcing you to do anything you don't want to. i'm just leaving you this opportunity to examine what else is possible, how else one can optimize this human experience.

Well if you think you have crossed the gate, you haven't. Simple as that.

ok, so thinking i've crossed the gate = not having crossed it? how do you guys know that you have then?

And if you think that seeing through illusion terminates all suffering- it's just an unrealustic expectation.

no, i never actually said that seeing through the illusion would terminate the suffering. i said that seeing through the illusion is a useful first step, in the eventual ridding oneself of certain things in experience, namely the field of being. what have you assumed and what have you actually read in what i wrote for sure? it seems that your lumping me into some group of people for whom you have already carved out a specific place in your mind. could it be that i' talking about something different?

So you can run away and hide, or you can take a break, take a breath and jump back in.

I'm not running away, would it be running away if i "crossed the gate" via your method and then left?

It's not the method that fails- it's your resistance that is in a way.

i actually never said the method fails, i said that it achieves exactly what it sets out to do. but i said also that more can be done. again, you seem to have assumed me into a specific place in your mind where a group of people who claim your method doesn't work exist. the irony here is that you tell me i'm the one resisting, when your assumptions are keeping you from even reading what i wrote.

How about setting up your intention to go through no mater what?

no matter what? does that include keeping this one on one going long after i "cross the gate" in your estimation? could it be that your assumptions about this being the only effective method are keeping you from seeing that someone else, not using this method, has already "crossed the gate?" think about what you could be missing out, and what you could be keeping other people from giving a chance.

Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

there are illusions, that could be said to be me, but i can clearly see that they are in fact illusions. no there is no self with actual existence.

Explain in detail what the illusion of self is and how it works.

alright, like i said i don't care too much whether you think i am or not "liberated" so i'll just tell you what the phenomena that "tell" the mind that a self exists.
- thoughts referencing things that are me/mine
- feeling of being
- emotional sensations

How does it feel to be liberated? What's the difference between before and after liberation?

it merely feels as if a large burden was lifted in that it is no longer necessary that i fight and defend this self, the self that is telling me to do various things, achieve status etc. etc. i can see that all these things are being done for something that doesn't exist, and thus am liberated in that sense. however, seeing things as they are, and not being deluded by ideas of self isn't the farthest you can go.

i have to go now, i can understand how difficult it might be to even consider the fact that more can be done after already thinking one has found the final "liberation" it takes a lot of boldness to decide that, "yes i've already seen the feeling of being for just a feeling, but now i want to get rid of all that unpleasantness in my experience so i'll start up again and get rid of that feeling."

so, good luck, if anyone has questions check out the podcast, bye

[No_One]

Come on Josh. You want to teach me something more then the creation of self but you are not able to show me you see that. Yes, you understand the concept (like any guy who spent 1 hour on this site) but you have not seen it. You want to tell us about the next step but you are unable to show a liberated guy that you have seen this. Really, this happens to us all the time. Just back it up and then we can discuss about next steps or whatever. Are you able to back it up? How is the illusion of self created in practice ... in real life?

Simple question. I know ... you have nothing to prove. But is it that or you can't prove it?

[No_One]

Hey Josh ... don't give up on us that easy. Show us you have this then teach us about the next level

[No_One]

Josh, I've been through this also. I was coming to RT and telling them they don't quite get it, that they are not quite it. And guess what ... I was wrong. And I was "sure" I have it about 5 times before. Just check it ... if you can't convince me, you don't quite have it. Or maybe I'm just an idiot. Sure ... the instinct is to say the other is wrong but why take this chance?