Guide required please

[Sarah7]

Hey Bryan

Expectation! Attention is always on something! Test this! But thoughts are saying what…..? That attention should be here and not there?????

I see, so what you're saying is that we are always that, or that we are always present, or that we are always the witness and don't need to make an effort to do so.

Did you test it? What did you notice?

What state is EVER permanent?

None. Except presence I guess.

Well – is that which notices ever not there? Test this too!

Yes, same as seeing and hearing - just sensations. The sensation happens first and then the labeling thoughts. The sensation doesn't come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function. This is interesting because I can see now that these are just commentary from the mind. Similarly for the ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label - comes from the mind.

Fab!

It does feel like 2 sensations but I can tell where one begins and the other ends. Sensing the line that separates them is a thought (subtle but a thought).

Well spotted!

Do sensations just happen even when attention is on something else?
Does thought still happen even when attention is on something else?

Can you find any separation with touch?
Have fun playing around with taste and smell yourself – let me know what you notice!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Not2]

Hey Bryan

Expectation! Attention is always on something! Test this! But thoughts are saying what…..? That attention should be here and not there?????

I see, so what you're saying is that we are always that, or that we are always present, or that we are always the witness and don't need to make an effort to do so.

Did you test it? What did you notice?

Yes, I am always present/witnessing and I can't stop that. I also cannot find a time where I am not that. I could argue that theoretically this is not true but from direct experience it is true, I can't find a time when I am not present/witnessing.

What state is EVER permanent?

None. Except presence I guess.

Well – is that which notices ever not there? Test this too!

Same as above, when I look I cannot find a time when noticing does not happen.

Do sensations just happen even when attention is on something else?

Yes. I can see this very clearly.

Does thought still happen even when attention is on something else?

Yes. I can see this very clearly.

Can you find any separation with touch?
Have fun playing around with taste and smell yourself – let me know what you notice!

The only separation I can find with touch is the perceived separation which I can also see is very subtly, thought.

In terms of taste and smell, they are the same as all the other senses, i.e. just sensations happening and thoughts labeling. I took a sip of coffee and as I smelt it a very subtle thought came that this is coffee and that I like the taste and then when I took a sip it was almost like there was a confirming (subtle) thought that this is coffee.

Regards
Bryan

[Sarah7]

Hey Bryan
Some very lovely noticing's again.

Lets have a tidy up session! As always, in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?
Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?
Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?
Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?
Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Anything else you want to look at Bryan? Anything not clear?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Not2]

Hi Sarah

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Simple answer is no. I find the experience of a self but when I look closely at it, as I've done through this process, I cannot find a 'self' that is the experiencer. Thoughts, sensations, perceptions, etc. just happen.

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

No, in terms of doership, all I find is the illusion of a doer. Thoughts happen after the action is performed. These are just labels.

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

No, it seems like there is a self that can and is making decisions but when looked at and tested, this is not true. This was clear during the tapping exercise.

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

No. This one seems to be the easiest to test and see. There is no knowing of what thought will come next and if thoughts are observed without trying to make them happen, they just naturally arise without any intention.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?

From direct experience, yes. The body is just a collection of various types of sensations.

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

The are not made to arise and they are not experienced by the self. They just happen.

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

It seems like this is true but when looked at closely, there is no self to be separate from everything else. But then does that prove the opposite? I.e. that everything is one?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

When I look at it, it is very clear. In my day to day activities, it is not seen clearly ALL the time. I think thoughts come up and they strengthen the sense of an I. However I am starting to see this more often.

Anything else you want to look at Bryan? Anything not clear?

I can see that from the seeing that there is no I, the search has definitely slowed down a lot but there are some big questions that are unanswered. I guess they are philosophical in a sense and hence not for this forum and maybe no one knows the answers to them.

Regards
Bryan

[Sarah7]

Morning Bryan

It seems like this is true but when looked at closely, there is no self to be separate from everything else. But then does that prove the opposite? I.e. that everything is one?

What is ‘proof’? A thought? Is this thought wanting evidence? Just look! Ive PM’d you as well.

When I look at it, it is very clear. In my day to day activities, it is not seen clearly ALL the time. I think thoughts come up and they strengthen the sense of an I. However I am starting to see this more often.

And is this a problem?

I can see that from the seeing that there is no I, the search has definitely slowed down a lot but there are some big questions that are unanswered. I guess they are philosophical in a sense and hence not for this forum and maybe no one knows the answers to them.

Is seeking still active? Please share what it is that is still missing. And you can bring any big question here!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Not2]

It seems like this is true but when looked at closely, there is no self to be separate from everything else. But then does that prove the opposite? I.e. that everything is one?

What is ‘proof’? A thought? Is this thought wanting evidence? Just look! Ive PM’d you as well.

Yes it is a thought and it is thought wanting evidence. I see what you are saying here - it's thought and not direct experience.

When I look at it, it is very clear. In my day to day activities, it is not seen clearly ALL the time. I think thoughts come up and they strengthen the sense of an I. However I am starting to see this more often.

And is this a problem?

Not a problem at all! :)

Is seeking still active? Please share what it is that is still missing. And you can bring any big question here!

Not really, no. I think the only thing is questions that are still unanswered but I guess that these are possibly just part of my expectations, i.e. to find the answers to the big questions.

1. Is there anything spiritual to life or is this just a realisation of Atheism in a sense? I.e. a cold lifeless universe that came about by chance and that evolved through the eons up until the point that we are currently experiencing. And that we are just the latest version of evolution. I.e. we are nothing but organic robots. And I'm not talking about a self here, I'm talking about body and mind, the entity we call a human being.

2. Where did all of this come from?

3. What happens when this body/mind expires?

Regards
Bryan

[Sarah7]

Hey Bryan

Yes it is a thought and it is thought wanting evidence. I see what you are saying here - it's thought and not direct experience.

Isnt thought part of direct experience as well? Doesn’t thought appear in what is? But does that which notices need proof of any kind?

Not really, no. I think the only thing is questions that are still unanswered but I guess that these are possibly just part of my expectations, i.e. to find the answers to the big questions.

Thought either way! :)

1. Is there anything spiritual to life or

Do you experience a cold lifeless universe? Or do you experience being an organic robot? Or do you experience life life-ing? What experience is personal? Arent you experience itself?

2. Where did all of this come from?

Can you tell me now?

3. What happens when this body/mind expires?

Well in direct experience – did you experience your birth? How do you know you were born, outside of thought that is? So translate that to death – death of what? If ‘you’ were never born? That the ‘you’ you thought you were was never there – but an illusion….. can that which doesn’t exist die?
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life?
Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
Anything to add?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Not2]

Hi Sarah!

Really sorry for the long delay.

Isnt thought part of direct experience as well? Doesn’t thought appear in what is? But does that which notices need proof of any kind?

Yes, thought is part of direct experience and it does appear in what is. That which notices doesn't need proof. It's thought that needs proof!

Do you experience a cold lifeless universe? Or do you experience being an organic robot? Or do you experience life life-ing? What experience is personal? Arent you experience itself?

In direct experience I don't experience a cold lifeless universe etc. The question is yet another thought! I can see that I am experience itself.

2. Where did all of this come from?

Can you tell me now?

This is another question that arises and is experienced. There isn't an answer to this question in direct experience. There are just thoughts about it.

3. What happens when this body/mind expires?

Well in direct experience – did you experience your birth? How do you know you were born, outside of thought that is? So translate that to death – death of what? If ‘you’ were never born? That the ‘you’ you thought you were was never there – but an illusion….. can that which doesn’t exist die?

No, it can't die if it never existed. Once again these are just thoughts that arise and create the illusion of a separate self.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is no separate self. There is only the illusion of one, created by the mind/thought and therefore there never was one to begin with.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is merely thought of a separate self. The way that I see it, it all starts with language. I.e. language is based on words and words are concepts and concepts create separation. It follows that if you don't know language or have any understanding of concepts then there is no illusion created of separation. I have a toddler and an infant and I can clearly see that in their experience there is no sense of separation until language and concepts are introduced. Words (concepts) label everything that we experience with the senses and that causes separation because the mind tells us that we are separate to those experiences (objects, etc.). Now I can see that there is actually no separation and that life just happens. Thoughts are triggered from situations/environment and are based on past experiences. There is no thinker of these thoughts. They just arise based on the triggers. There is no thinker. There is no separate self.

How does it feel to see this?

It feels surreal in a way. Like I have been living a dream and have woken up to see that I was just dreaming.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is no real difference. Thoughts and emotion still arise. Situations still arise. There is still pain and suffering but I feel that an edge of "seriousness" has been lifted. I feel less stressed and more confident. I
feel that this is only the start though and that this could deepen into "taking more af a back seat and letting life just happen".

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I think the experiment you had me perform where I had to tap my fingers and then try to stop tapping. That blew my mind! Another exercise I tried at some point during this dialog was to not think of anything for as long as I could and I couldn't last more than 20 seconds or so! That also blew my mind! I realised I don't create thoughts and that they just arise out of nothing.

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life?

No. Throughout my life I always thought that I did but now I see that I don't. Thoughts (and decisions) just arise based on the situation and past experience.

Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Again, I always thought that I did but I can see that I don't. The finger tapping exercise was key to showing me this. Another example is when I catch myself doing something that I can't remember initiating or consciously doing - driving, brushing teeth, etc.

Anything to add?

Thankfully no! ;)

Regards
Bryan

[Sarah7]

Hey Bryan - Thanks for that. Will ask other guides to check over in case there is anything I have missed out! So there maybe questions. If poss, can you keep checking in! And I have pm'd you! Hugs Sarah xxx