May I be guided by Vivien?

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,

The experiencer CAN or CANNOT be found?
(I assume you accidentally left out the word not, but please correct me if I’m wrong :)

Yes, I left out the word "not". I wanted to say "The experiencer can't be found." Thank you for correcting.

What is controlling the arm? Can a controlling ‘thing’ be located?

It's a knowing. Knowing which arm to move. But I can't describe it specifically. It can't be touched, smelled or seen.

What moves the arm?

Arms move by themselves according to the knowing.

What is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find the ‘thing’ that is doing the choosing?

Knowing chooses which arm to move. But "knowing" is not a matter that can be described specifically. "Knowing" may be just a label that I want to describe my feeling because I don't know how to describe it in a better way.

How is decision made which arm to raise?
How is decision made when to raise the arm?

I just know it and do it spontaneously without being interrupted by thoughts.

Regards,
Ivy

[Vivien]

Dear Ivy,

Vivien: What is controlling the arm? Can a controlling ‘thing’ be located?

Ivy: It's a knowing. Knowing which arm to move. But I can't describe it specifically. It can't be touched, smelled or seen.

OK. What’s happened here is that the word ‘controller’ have been replaced with the word ‘knower/knowing’. But replacing one word with another doesn’t change a thing. The belief in a controller/knower entity is kept in place.

“It's a knowing. Knowing which arm to move. But I can't describe it specifically. It can't be touched, smelled or seen.” – If it’s cannot be touched, smelled or seen, then how this supposed ‘knowing/controller’ is experienced?

If you say that it cannot be experienced, the how is it known that it exist at all?

Vivien: What moves the arm?

Ivy: Arms move by themselves according to the knowing.

This reply is quite contradictory.

On one hand you say that…
- ‘arms move by themselves’ – so there is no controller whatsoever, since they move by themselves without anything controlling them.

But on the other hand you say that…
- ‘according to the knowing’ – so here is an assumption of a controller.

But this simply cannot be.
Arms are either moving by themselves, OR, the arm are moved by a controller/knowing. So which one is REALLY happening?

Knowing chooses which arm to move. But "knowing" is not a matter that can be described specifically. "Knowing" may be just a label that I want to describe my feeling because I don't know how to describe it in a better way.

“Knowing chooses which arm to choose” – says a thought. But what is the actual experience?

“‘Knowing’ may be just a label that I want to describe my feeling…” – what is this ‘I’ exactly that wants to describe this?

What is this ‘I’ EXACTLY that has this feeling?

Love, Vivien

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,

“It's a knowing. Knowing which arm to move. But I can't describe it specifically. It can't be touched, smelled or seen.” – If it’s cannot be touched, smelled or seen, then how this supposed ‘knowing/controller’ is experienced?

It's like thoughts. Thoughts can't be touched, smelled, heard or seen, but thoughts are experienced. Knowing is more subtle than thoughts. Like if you always follow the same route to go home, you just know where to turn right or left without thinking. Or when you are familiar with the daily routine, you just know what to do next.

If you say that it cannot be experienced, the how is it known that it exist at all?

I don't know if it exists or not. Thoughts are experienced, but thoughts don't exist.

Arms are either moving by themselves, OR, the arm are moved by a controller/knowing. So which one is REALLY happening?

Arms can move by themselves without following what knowing says when I am unconscious. But the question here is want me to choose which arm to raise, when I am doing this I am conscious, so arms follow the knowing's instruction.

“Knowing chooses which arm to choose” – says a thought. But what is the actual experience?

It's my actual experience which may be interpreted by thoughts, but I can't find any other answers.

“‘Knowing’ may be just a label that I want to describe my feeling…” – what is this ‘I’ exactly that wants to describe this?

What is this ‘I’ EXACTLY that has this feeling?

"I" is a word and a way to express and describe what is experienced here. It provides a more convenient way to communicate.

Regards,
Ivy

[Vivien]

Dear Ivy,

Have you read through my previous post thoroughly?

I’m especially referring to this part:
“What’s happened here is that the word ‘controller’ have been replaced with the word ‘knower/knowing’. But replacing one word with another doesn’t change a thing. The belief in a controller/knower entity is kept in place.”

So let’s see again what is actual experience.

In actual experience there is….
- seeing
- hearing
- feeling/touching
- smelling
- tasting
- noticing a thought

Is this totally clear?
Is there anything else in experience than the above list? If yes, what would be that exactly?

Thoughts are experienced, but thoughts don't exist.

This statement is an utter impossibility.

If a thought is experienced or noticed then the thought EXIST.
However, it exists only as an appearing thought, but what the thought is ABOUT is just a fantasy.
Is this clear? – please don’t just say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ but also explain the answer.

Vivien: “Knowing chooses which arm to choose” – says a thought. But what is the actual experience?

Ivy: It's my actual experience which may be interpreted by thoughts, but I can't find any other answers.

OK, so you state that a chooser is an actual experience…
If you agree with the list of the ‘components’ of experience above (seeing, hearing, feeling/touching, smelling, tasting + noticing thoughts) then how the chooser is experienced? With which of those?

Is the chooser an image/sight?
Is the chooser a sensation?
Is the chooser a smell?
Is the chooser a taste?
Is the chooser a thought?
If none of the above, then what is it?

We are looking for a 'thing' that is doing the choosing. We are looking for a real chooser.
Not thought stories about a hypothetical chooser, but a real one.

Just because you replace the word ‘chooser’ with ‘knowing’ won’t change thing!
The belief in that supposed entity that makes decisions is there.

Where is this chooser that you are claiming to exist?
WHERE is it?

Love, Vivien

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,

I can't see the answers clearly. I will keep trying and reply later. Thank you for the patience.

Regards,
Ivy

[Vivien]

Dear Ivy,

I suggest reading through the whole thread from the beginning and doing the exercises again, and looking with each question that seems to be unclear.
Doing this can be very helpful.

Please let me know how it goes.

Love, Vivien

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,

Thank you for the patience. I have read through the whole thread from the beginning and kept trying to see the answers, but I am still not sure about it. I wonder if the "knowing" is actually a "thought" which is less obvious than the primary thoughts, and I label the "thought" as "knowing"?

So let’s see again what is actual experience.

In actual experience there is….
- seeing
- hearing
- feeling/touching
- smelling
- tasting
- noticing a thought

Is this totally clear?
Is there anything else in experience than the above list? If yes, what would be that exactly?

No.

If a thought is experienced or noticed then the thought EXIST.
However, it exists only as an appearing thought, but what the thought is ABOUT is just a fantasy.
Is this clear? – please don’t just say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ but also explain the answer.

Yes, things are experienced exist. Originally I thought "thoughts" are invisible so they don't exist.

how the chooser is experienced? With which of those?

Is the chooser an image/sight?
Is the chooser a sensation?
Is the chooser a smell?
Is the chooser a taste?
Is the chooser a thought?
If none of the above, then what is it?
We are looking for a 'thing' that is doing the choosing. We are looking for a real chooser.
Not thought stories about a hypothetical chooser, but a real one.

I may label "thoughts" as "knowing" but I am not sure about it. I can't find an entity that make choices or decisions, and I can't find an entity as a thinker, seer, hearer or doer etc. Maybe thoughts about which arm to raise arise and the body just follow the thoughts.

Where is this chooser that you are claiming to exist?
WHERE is it?

I can't find it. Maybe only thoughts of choosing and decision happen without a chooser.

Regards,
Ivy

[Vivien]

Dear Ivy,

Vivien: So let’s see again what is actual experience.

In actual experience there is….
- seeing
- hearing
- feeling/touching
- smelling
- tasting
- noticing a thought

Is this totally clear?
Is there anything else in experience than the above list? If yes, what would be that exactly?

Ivy: No

Sorry, it’s not clear for me that what your answer ‘no’ refers to. That these 6 ‘components’ of actual experience is not clear?
Please, elaborate on this.

I wonder if the "knowing" is actually a "thought" which is less obvious than the primary thoughts, and I label the "thought" as "knowing"?

This above comment is a thought interpretation trying to figure out (by thought) that what is going on.
If a sentence start with "I wonder", it’s sign that it's coming from thinking and not looking.

Being clear on thoughts is very important. This is the bases of ANY further investigation.

In general language ‘knowing’ means some kind of intellectual knowledge, which can happen ONLY on the level of thoughts. But what we are doing here is NOT an intellectual knowing or understanding.

There is a ‘knowing’ WITHOUT any thoughts. The word ‘knowing’ can be replaced by ‘seeing’, ‘noticing’, or ‘aware of’.

But according to your above comment there is no knowing without a thought, because (according to the comment) knowing is a thought. So let’s see if this REALLY the case. But at first, let’s just observe thoughts.

Have you noticed that the thought stream is not continuous?
Have you noticed that there is a gap (few seconds) between two thoughts?

In the next 24 hours in the all waking hours try to observe the gaps between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done but noticing that thinking is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Please do it as often as possible; while waiting in a bus stop, washing hands, taking shower, eating, drinking, preparing food, walking down the street, walking up on a staircase, waiting for the lift, going to the bathroom, having a minute break from work, before falling asleep, etc.

Please take every opportunity to look for the gap between two thoughts. So do this hundreds times during the day.
Please report back how it went.

Love, Vivien

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,

Vivien: So let’s see again what is actual experience.

In actual experience there is….
- seeing
- hearing
- feeling/touching
- smelling
- tasting
- noticing a thought

Is this totally clear?
Is there anything else in experience than the above list? If yes, what would be that exactly?

Ivy: No

Vivien: Sorry, it’s not clear for me that what your answer ‘no’ refers to. That these 6 ‘components’ of actual experience is not clear?
Please, elaborate on this.

Sorry, I didn't express it clearly enough. I mean there is no other experiences I can find other than the list above.

Have you noticed that the thought stream is not continuous?

Yes. Thoughts appear and disappear. Thoughts are not continuous.

Have you noticed that there is a gap (few seconds) between two thoughts?

Yes.

Please take every opportunity to look for the gap between two thoughts. So do this hundreds times during the day.
Please report back how it went.

I have done it as often as possible. The more I focus on gap, the more I see that the gap is not actual a gap, the gap is always there and remains still in the background. It's thoughts arising and cover the background, and the uncovered parts look like gaps.

Regards,
Ivy

[Vivien]

Dear Ivy,

Sorry, I didn't express it clearly enough. I mean there is no other experiences I can find other than the list above.

Thanks for clarifying this :)

Vivien: Have you noticed that there is a gap (few seconds) between two thoughts?

Ivy: Yes

OK. In your previous post you wrote:

I wonder if the "knowing" is actually a "thought" which is less obvious than the primary thoughts, and I label the "thought" as "knowing"?

The above comment assumes that knowing = thought

So let’s see if this really the case.
You’ve seen that thoughts are not continuous, there are gaps between them. So today while observing the gaps between thoughts also look for these:

What ‘happens’ in the gap between two thoughts? – don’t go for theories, just look the plain, raw experience.

If thought = knowing that would mean that without the presence of a thought there cannot be a sensation. But is this true?

Does sensation stop just because there is no thought present?
Does sound stop just because there is no thought present?
Does image/sight stop just because there is no thought present?
Does taste stop just because there is no thought present?
Does smell stop just because there is no thought present?

Please spend at least ten minutes investigating with EACH of the questions bellow one-by-one. You can also investigate it during the day (just as you did it with the gap).

Do thoughts needed in order to know the presence (or be aware of) a sensation?
Do thoughts needed in order to know the presence (or be aware of) an image?
Do thoughts needed in order to know the presence (or be aware of) an sound?
Do thoughts needed in order to know the presence (or be aware of) a taste?
Do thoughts needed in order to know the presence (or be aware of) a smell?

If no, then how could be thought = knowing?

Can a thought know anything?
Or thoughts are KNOWN?

Love, Vivien

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,

What ‘happens’ in the gap between two thoughts? – don’t go for theories, just look the plain, raw experience.

If thought = knowing that would mean that without the presence of a thought there cannot be a sensation. But is this true?

No matter thoughts arise or not, the sensations-seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, are there, sensations don't disappear just because thoughts disappear.

Does sensation stop just because there is no thought present?
Does sound stop just because there is no thought present?
Does image/sight stop just because there is no thought present?
Does taste stop just because there is no thought present?
Does smell stop just because there is no thought present?

No, sensation, sound, image, taste, smell are all still there when no thoughts present.

Do thoughts needed in order to know the presence (or be aware of) a sensation?
Do thoughts needed in order to know the presence (or be aware of) an image?
Do thoughts needed in order to know the presence (or be aware of) an sound?
Do thoughts needed in order to know the presence (or be aware of) a taste?
Do thoughts needed in order to know the presence (or be aware of) a smell?

No, sensations, images, sounds, tastes, smells are still there no matter thoughts arise or not. Thoughts even may interrupt the sensations. When I look at beautiful scenes, thoughts may interrupt and say " It won't last for the long time." Thoughts interrupt and interpret the direct experiences.

If no, then how could be thought = knowing?

Can a thought know anything?
Or thoughts are KNOWN?

Thoughts are known. But by what? Like the previous question, which hand will raise is known in advanced, but by what? An entity can't be found.

Regards,
Ivy

[Vivien]

Dear Ivy,

No matter thoughts arise or not, the sensations-seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, are there, sensations don't disappear just because thoughts disappear.

Yes! :)

So, can thought be the knower of experience? – look very carefully.

You wrote this previously:

I wonder if the "knowing" is actually a "thought" which is less obvious than the primary thoughts, and I label the "thought" as "knowing"?

Is this the case?
Is knowing = thought?

Can a thought know ANYTHING?
Do thoughts have abilities (like knowing)?

Thoughts even may interrupt the sensations. When I look at beautiful scenes, thoughts may interrupt and say " It won't last for the long time." Thoughts interrupt and interpret the direct experiences.

Yes, thoughts interpret the actual experience.
BUT can thoughts interrupt the experience?

“When I look at beautiful scenes, thoughts may interrupt and say…:” – Does the thought REALLY interrupt the sight?
Does the sight stop being there (disappear) just because an interpreting thought has arisen?

Love, Vivien

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,

So, can thought be the knower of experience? – look very carefully.

No, thoughts and experiences are known. Thoughts are something experienced, too. Thoughts are not knower.

Is this the case?
Is knowing = thought?

No, thoughts are known and experienced. Thoughts are not knowing.

Can a thought know ANYTHING?

Thoughts can't know anything, thoughts just interpret everything.

Do thoughts have abilities (like knowing)?

Sorry, I don't understand this question well, can you explain it more clearly?

BUT can thoughts interrupt the experience?

“When I look at beautiful scenes, thoughts may interrupt and say…:” – Does the thought REALLY interrupt the sight?
Does the sight stop being there (disappear) just because an interpreting thought has arisen?

No, I expressed it badly. I meant seeing, hearing, smelling, touching, tasting happen fluently, but thoughts disturb (not interrupt) and interpret the experiences.

Regards,
Ivy

[Vivien]

Dear Ivy,

No, thoughts and experiences are known. Thoughts are something experienced, too. Thoughts are not knower.

Yes :)

Vivien: Do thoughts have abilities (like knowing)?

Ivy: Sorry, I don't understand this question well, can you explain it more clearly?

By ‘abilities’ I mean ‘to be able to perform an action or do something’. In other words, can a thought do anything?

Are thoughts some kind of entities that are able to perform actions (like to know things, do things, disturb things, etc. - you can put any VERB here)?

Do thoughts have ANY characteristics or attributes?

I meant seeing, hearing, smelling, touching, tasting happen fluently, but thoughts disturb (not interrupt) and interpret the experiences.

Can a thought REALLY be able to disturb the experience?

Thoughts could disturb experienced ONLY IF thoughts weren’t part of the experience.
Isn’t thoughts are ALSO part of experience? – please look carefully.

A few posts above I asked:

In actual experience there is….
- seeing
- hearing
- feeling/touching
- smelling
- tasting
- noticing a thought

Is this totally clear?

And you said that yes, it’s clear.

So experience has 6 ‘components’, the 5 senses + thought.

Noticing thought is part of experience, since thought are known. Is this clear? – please look very carefully.

Love, Vivien

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,

By ‘abilities’ I mean ‘to be able to perform an action or do something’. In other words, can a thought do anything?
Are thoughts some kind of entities that are able to perform actions (like to know things, do things, disturb things, etc. - you can put any VERB here)?

Thoughts arise and disappear.They can't be entities to perform actions or do something. Attention may be drawn to thoughts, but thoughts don't "do" it. Thoughts exist and sometimes attention just goes to thoughts automatically.

Do thoughts have ANY characteristics or attributes?

Thoughts themselves don't have characteristics or attributes. But interrepting everything is an attribute of the the contents of thoughts. Even the simpliest ones "good" "bad" are still interpretation of something.

Can a thought REALLY be able to disturb the experience?

Thoughts could disturb experienced ONLY IF thoughts weren’t part of the experience.
Isn’t thoughts are ALSO part of experience? – please look carefully.

Thought is a part of experiences. But when attention is drawn to thoughts, experineces can't be experienced fully. For example, when I am eating food and thoughts happen at the same time, if attention is drawn to thoughts, the flavor of food can't be tasted and experienced as they are fully. Maybe I should use the word "distract" instead of "disturb". When attention is drawn to thoughts, what are experienced are distracted and can't be experienced as they are fully.

So experience has 6 ‘components’, the 5 senses + thought.

Noticing thought is part of experience, since thought are known. Is this clear? – please look very carefully.

Yes. Thought is part of experience.

Regards,
Ivy