Seeking a guide

[moondog]

Hi Anna,

This of course passed/subsided after a while to the more usual state of awareness where thoughts & labelling run rampant and the feeling of separation is more apparent than the feeling of total one-ness in a single flow of life...that's just being in a state of non-presence and imagining that "I" am more my thoughts and labelling. The experience during the meditation was just a very useful experience of what we have been discussing in a very embodied/experiential manner.

Your experience sounds great and you might take it as a good sign of progress but, as you clearly realise, no more than that. It's a good indication of how all states, 'good' or 'bad', pleasant or unpleasant, come and go. Fortunately, you're not looking for any particular kind of state but, instead, just the certainty that whenever you look for a separate self, you'll know it's nowhere to be found. It's never existed.

I" have found that almost all actions are automatic, there is no "I" there directing them. When there is something new to learn, it doesn't feel automatic...but it's also not as if there is an "i" learning the new thing....it's the same as before, if I look for an "i" doing anything, there is no "i' to be found.

Just to be clear about this Anna, when you say that you've that almost all actions are automatic, are you saying that there are a few that are directed/controlled by a separate entity? If so, please describe the experience that shows this sometimes to be the case. I'd just add that when I use the word 'automatic' I don't mean literally so, as the word suggests something kind of robotic which is not the case at all. I simply mean lacking any evident director or controller, so that actions just feel like they're arising spontaneously and freely, of their own accord.

Anyway, you're continuing to see that there's no separate self to be found in experience which is great. So, let's continue along the same lines by looking at deciding and choosing. There's quite an overlap with actions and control but it's useful to look more closely at what happens (and doesn't happen) when decisions/choices are made.

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

Pete x

[Anna77]

Hi Pete :)

Now, re "almost all actions being automatic" what i was referring to with "almost" was the thing where learning something new doesn't feel or appear to be an automatic thing...it is still automatic, but it's a slowed down version so it doesn't feel as speedy as what i would normally associate with an automatic experience. There is some process going on, some electrical signalling from brain to body parts to perform certain functions - when new/unfamiliar - that's a slower, more deliberate, learning type process rather than the same actions happening quickly & efficiently...and i usually associate "automatic" with speed and efficiency. It seems to require more presence & focus where as once something is learned, it can be done "automatically" whilst being completely non-present...

so the brain/body electrical signalling process is exactly the same process as when it's a new thing being learned or an already learned thing, but once it becomes learned it can be done faster and with none or almost no presence. It's just a slowed down, laboured version in the initial learning stages & requires more attentive presence...there is still no "I" entity doing this stuff, it's like a combination of a body and brain computing information.

I guess it's like laying new electrical circuits in the brain...so these are being created anew when ever learning something new... it is a process in which there is no "i" involved and certainly no "I' controlling it...but it feels like there's an internal wiring of new circuitry going on...& this requires that "i" to be more attentive to the task at hand...once something is learned, it appears my attention can be less focussed and drift all over the place.

Thoughts and labelling are still happening when learning something new...but the thoughts and labelling are largely directed in a focussed manner on what is being learned...there isn't an "I" controlling the focus of attention, this is just what happens automatically when something new is being learned.

Does that all make sense pete? It's hard to describe and I don't know if I've explained it very well/clearly. There still isn't a "I" that "I" can find anywhere doing anything...but my understanding of what constitutes "automatic" was a process that happens quickly and fluidly and that was making me think that somehow learning something new didn't synchronise with my use of the word automatic.

I'm really tired so will come back to this tomorrow :)

[moondog]

Hi Anna,

Now, re "almost all actions being automatic" what i was referring to with "almost" was the thing where learning something new doesn't feel or appear to be an automatic thing...it is still automatic, but it's a slowed down version so it doesn't feel as speedy as what i would normally associate with an automatic experience.

...there is still no "I" entity doing this stuff, it's like a combination of a body and brain computing information...

...it is a process in which there is no "i" involved and certainly no "I' controlling it...

There still isn't a "I" that "I" can find anywhere doing anything...but my understanding of what constitutes "automatic" was a process that happens quickly and fluidly and that was making me think that somehow learning something new didn't synchronise with my use of the word automatic.

Thanks for explaining all of that so clearly and thoroughly. All you need do is to look to see whether a separate self can be found in direct experience and, once you've looked everywhere there is to look and have found no such entity, you'll then be able to know for sure that there's no such thing, and that's it. You've not been able to find the little critter anywhere you've looked so far, and I'm looking forward to your findings when looking at the experience of choosing/deciding. And remember to be kind to yourself Anna, and just continue to approach all of this in a relaxed, even playful, way.

Pete x

[Anna77]

just continue to approach all of this in a relaxed, even playful, way.

This is the really most important thing i need to remind myself of Pete - more than anything else!!! I get so intensely "stuck" in "doing things"....I'm often completely lost in "doing stuff" and not remembering to just relax about life in general!

So, I went through some processes of doing actions and looking to see if I could find "someone - anyone" in the drivers seat so to speak. Still nothing, no -one. The body performs actions, the "mind" labels the actions, maybe tells a story about them or runs a commentary about them...but that's all there is going on...

There is no "i" i can find controlling things, making the decisions and driving what is going on...the decision thing is really quite funny to reflect on...having always "thought" ..."i" am making decisions...but "i" am not actually making decisions at all...because "i" can't find someone/an entity called "i" who is making them...the decisions are happening...to pick up a cup and sip water, to put these words together and type them out...but i don't know where they're coming from & I don't know where the decisions being made are coming from either...

it goes back to that former awareness of lots of data being fed in and out of this body/brain system and it's performing functions much like a living computing device...but the driver of this device is unknown...I'm not sure who or what is driving it all, it's life...life is driving it all, but that's about as far as my comprehension of it goes.

There is something about that living computing system that just came up...if the seer, seen & seeing are the same, if it's all one continuous flow of life, then it's the same with this living computing system...there's data incoming and information/data outgoing from everything, everywhere, all the time. All this information/data is feeding in and flowing out & streaming back and forth between everything else, in all of life, in this constant flow of life/consciousness...just all coming and going constantly. Life responding to life in every moment, shifting and changing in relation to the flow of life as it goes in and out and through everything all the time...

It was as if, for a very brief moment....life hinted at the feeling that there was no separation between the consciousness that is you writing & responding and the consciousness that is me writing & responding....

[moondog]

Hi Anna,

So, I went through some processes of doing actions and looking to see if I could find "someone - anyone" in the drivers seat so to speak. Still nothing, no -one. The body performs actions, the "mind" labels the actions, maybe tells a story about them or runs a commentary about them...but that's all there is going on...

There is no "i" i can find controlling things, making the decisions and driving what is going on...the decision thing is really quite funny to reflect on...having always "thought" ..."i" am making decisions...but "i" am not actually making decisions at all...because "i" can't find someone/an entity called "i" who is making them...the decisions are happening...to pick up a cup and sip water, to put these words together and type them out...but i don't know where they're coming from & I don't know where the decisions being made are coming from either...

Splendid Anna, this is such a crucial area to see that there's no little controller making all (or any) decisions and your observations show that you see this very clearly in direct experience.

So that's great; and so far you've been able to see with clarity that there's just no separate self present or necessary in seeing, hearing, tasting, touching or smelling, thinking, doing, controlling, deciding or choosing. Which brings us to the body, so let's look to see whether there's a self to be found in or as the body:

Solely from experience:

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?


Pete x

[Anna77]

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Hi Pete,

this seems tricky...I'm sitting here, aware that there is something commonly labelled as "pain" in my stomach...so the body is experiencing a feeling/sensation, it has a label that has been made to mark the sensation....

The body doesn't experience thoughts, the thoughts come from somewhere - nowhere, they register somewhere in consciousness...I'm not sure where and how the thoughts are registering...

The body is experiencing sensations...the sensation of discomfort/pain (a label for the sensation) in a specific area of the body...the body experiences sensations that have specific labels for the sensations...cold, hot, pain, pleasure etc....they're labels, but the labels are a reference to the sensation that is being felt in/on the body. The body could just be a collection of sensations...after all, "the body" is also just a label like everything else...

So, I don't know what the body is except that I'm accustomed to referring to it via the labels it has been given, "body, arms, legs, face, stomach etc." Without the label...what is it?

I don't know...a physical mass...the physical mass does experience sensations though...even if I'm not labelling the sensation of my hands touching...just feeling the experience of it happening...there is still sensation being registered whether it is mentally labelled or not.

[moondog]

Hi Anna,

this seems tricky...I'm sitting here, aware that there is something commonly labelled as "pain" in my stomach...so the body is experiencing a feeling/sensation, it has a label that has been made to mark the sensation....[

You get it, so not so tricky really. So long as you see that in direct experience there's nothing but sensing, seeing, hearing etc., and that it's just thinking that labels this experiencing as 'my body', 'my head' etc.

The body doesn't experience thoughts, the thoughts come from somewhere - nowhere, they register somewhere in consciousness...I'm not sure where and how the thoughts are registering...

You're right.

The body is experiencing sensations...the sensation of discomfort/pain (a label for the sensation) in a specific area of the body...the body experiences sensations that have specific labels for the sensations...cold, hot, pain, pleasure etc....they're labels, but the labels are a reference to the sensation that is being felt in/on the body. The body could just be a collection of sensations...after all, "the body" is also just a label like everything else...

You got it. All I need to see is that you're not under any illusion that there's a separate 'you' that you either think is the body or is lurking somewhere in the body. Clearly you're not, and you can see that It's simply about labelling experiencing, trying to nail it down.

Nice going Anna... you've looked and looked everywhere there is to look in experiencing and you haven't been able to find even a trace of a self-entity either obviously present or hiding anywhere.

So, before we review and revisit any areas that might be needed, let's just look from a slightly different perspective:

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

Pete x

[Anna77]

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

Hi Pete...so, there is no "I' to be found anywhere when i actually really look...a lot of the day, I'm not present and not looking, so whenever that is the case, I'm still identified with the thought form that there is an "i" or the thought form that masquerades as "i". But yes, when I do become present and really look, there is no self or "I" to be found running anything.

I don't know what experiences, what thinks, what does...I honestly don't know...except that it's life, a version of life or part of life expressing, experiencing & doing. I guess that means life has to be aware too then, the awareness must also come from this life animation...I'm not sure where else it could come from...there doesn't seem to be anything else.

There's really nowhere else to go is there? :)

[moondog]

Hi Anna,

...so, there is no "I' to be found anywhere when i actually really look...a lot of the day, I'm not present and not looking, so whenever that is the case, I'm still identified with the thought form that there is an "i" or the thought form that masquerades as "i". But yes, when I do become present and really look, there is no self or "I" to be found running anything.

It's fine, so long as when you look you can see for sure that there's no separate self to be found, except as a thought story, and that story is seen for what it is - just another story, that's it. These I-thoughts have been coming and going for most of your life, and there's a strong habit-energy still at play, and they don't just stop. But now that they've been seen through, like in the Wizard of Oz, they're no longer believed and so they gradually lose their power and ability seduce you into believing there's this special, unique entity enabling 'you' and 'your life' to happen. Once it's known, it can't be unknown :)

I don't know what experiences, what thinks, what does...I honestly don't know...except that it's life, a version of life or part of life expressing, experiencing & doing. I guess that means life has to be aware too then, the awareness must also come from this life animation...I'm not sure where else it could come from...there doesn't seem to be anything else. There's really nowhere else to go is there? :)

No there isn't. It's just awareness aware of 'itself'.

I'm really pleased with your answers Anna. Now, time just briefly to review everything we've done so far, to see if you need to revisit any aspects to look in more depth for any evidence of a self-entity anywhere at all.

As always, in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

It might seem like a bit if a long list of questions but the answers can be brief unless, of course, there's something you want to examine some more. It doesn't look to me as if there's likely to be much, if anything, but basically, we just need to tidy up and identify any areas that need to be looked into a bit more deeply, or clarified.

Nice going Anna.

Pete x

[Anna77]

Hi Pete :)

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Nope...not when i am really present and really looking, only when I am not present and in habitual identification with thought do I imagine there is still a self, but I know there isn't in reality...only in imagination.

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

No, again there is the imagined belief of this when I'm not present - but even that's very hazy in its attempt at getting traction these days...usually I realise quite promptly when i'm "imagining that i" have any influence or control over life at all, that is a total illusory belief/thought form...it's quite a relief to remember that & let go of the belief in some ways.

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Yeah, this one is still quite easy to forget but in direct experience, there isn't anyone or anything making anything happen, decisions are included in this...there's nothing and no-one there anywhere doing anything.

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Definitely no self thinking....there's just a lot of thinking that goes on all the time with absolutely total lack of control or anyone or anything directing it.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Yes, that's correct. The body is a collection of sensations and thought labels them a experiences...thought labels the body as well.

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

No, the 5 senses are not made to arise by a self, mainly b/c there is none :) Same for the 5 body senses not being experienced by a self, mainly b/c there isn't one there to make that a true statement.

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
No, this is still harder to maintain a present awareness of, but in direct experience when i'm present and looking, there is definitely no separate self in here with the rest of the world out there.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

No, there's not doubt that in all cases, the self is nothing more than a mental fabrication.

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

Nope, nope, nope, nothing happening here...I can see clearly when i am present and looking that there isn't anything al all driving anything, deciding anything, experiencing anything...there is a lot of thoughts and labelling going on but even that's just part of the constant flow of all of it, a mass of life all swirling together in a completely interconnected manner....like watching steam rise from a cup of tea or camp fire smoke, it's all one movement the just goes where ever it wants to go and there's no way of predicting or controlling it...and there's nothing "in" the steam or smoke that can predict or control it. It's just life moving however life wants to move.

I am pretty sure "i" wanted more bells and whistles than this Pete! :) It makes me laugh a bit, thought says it's a combination of relief & disappointment...but really, it is what it is..who cares? There's no-one to care anyway. Only some thoughts making labels and judgements ...

<3 <3 <3

[moondog]

Hi Anna,

Thanks for your lovely, clear replies. I like them a lot:)

I am pretty sure "i" wanted more bells and whistles than this Pete! :) It makes me laugh a bit, thought says it's a combination of relief & disappointment...but really, it is what it is..who cares? There's no-one to care anyway. Only some thoughts making labels and judgements ...

Yeah, I was like that too, but you'll discover that not having constantly to protect, shore up and cosset the separate self that's been seen never to have been is very liberating. It frees up energy to live life much more immediately. There's a gradual falling away of long-held beliefs that just takes as long as it takes for each of us...

Anyway, here are the final questions Anna. When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience. Once I get your answers, and have clarified anything I might need to, I'll put them forward for to the guides for any comments. I'll then arrange for you to get access to the aftercare and various other groups on Facebook and the LU site. These are very friendly, helpful and supportive forums where you can discuss any issues relating to having seen that there's no separate self. Initially, it can be very helpful to talk with other folks who have also recently gated. So, if you do want to join the FB groups, please either let me know your details here or, if you prefer, PM them to me.

Always from direct experience:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Please give examples from recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

I'm really happy for you Anna.

Pete x

[Anna77]

Hi Pete :) I'm back from the little whirlwind of activity & busy-ness of the last few days...onto the FINAL QUESTIONS!!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

NO, there is isn't and there never was. "I" "thought" there was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

"I" is a sense of a separate entity/self and it's a thought form, an idea or mental construct..it's not real...there is no-one or nothing that is "i". The illusion comes from this thought form "thinking" it is "i", thinking it is a separate entity or self from all of life/everything else.

It's hard to explain that this thought, which is not "me" - "thinks" it is, somehow. This thought creates an imagined sense of self or separate identity from everything else. It comes from labelling as far as "I" can tell...Thought labels everything. It labels life. It labels experience, it labels things...Labelling is a form of thought separating the whole, dividing life into parts...with every label, an imagined sense separation is created...

For example, thought labels this table, it labels this body, it labels these fingers typing...all of this is just an expression of life, being and happening....there's no such thing as a body, fingers, a table, they are real "things" but these labels are made up! These things have been labelled by a mental construct/thought in order to give different aspects of the whole/life a name/label and create a sense of separation/individuation from the whole/life. Again, this isn't real, everything is whole/one all the time, but thought & labelling imagine it to be otherwise...

When it starts....we're born, there is no sense of separation or "i", there just is-ness - no separation. As we grow up & our brain area of language faculty develops, we learn to name things, label things, and we're also taught by peers about being a separate entity, we're taught that there is an "I", that we are a separate entity with an identity from everything else. This compounds over time & is reinforced on a daily basis, so it's very easy to spend an entire life being identified with the thought form that there is an identity and separate self...when in reality/direct experience, there isn't.

Being taught about "linear time" also reinforces this sense of separation from the whole or from life happening because it's another way of dividing life/the whole into parts and labelling it...this is because there actually is no such thing as time...there is only now. Time is another made up mental construct used to label and divide life happening....

Life is happening, there is no time, there is just life, being, happening. The sun rises and sets, but that's not time, that's something labelled by thought as the movement of a planet around a star, thought has also created a label for this experience and called "a day" and created "time" to name this experience of life happening...it's still just life happening...regardless of the label of time or not. If "I" look at a clock and see the hands pointing at a couple of numbers, in reality, that means nothing...thought labels what it sees and "thinks" the label means something.

Identification with the labelling of time strengthens identification with thought because there is no time unless identified with thought. In direct experience, there is no time, in reality, there is no time, whenever there is no identification with thought, there is no time.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It doesn't feel any different really. There is a slight sense of being less concerned about life because what's the point? Life is just happening regardless of whether "I" think about it or have a reaction to it or not. There is no control over life happening, so why bother worrying? Because "I" am still identified with thought a lot of the "time" - that is - not looking at direct experience - life is very similar to how it was beginning the process...but there is awareness that life is just happening regardless of the thoughts going on....whenever "I" look at direct experience, the truth is there for "me" to see, to feel, to experience...Thought keeps going regardless, when "i" wake, thoughts are there, when "I" go to sleep, thoughts are there. Life just keeps happening regardless. "I" have no control over it...there's nothing to be gained or lost because there's no-one to gain or lose anything. There is just life, doing whatever it's doing.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

This is a good question..."I" don't know if there was just one thing...it felt like a culmination of looking and finding nothing...every time" i" was looking at direct experience, there was nothing there. It just kept coming back to the same thing, again and again, nope, nothing there, no-one home...At some stage "I" was noticing that life was like a river current that just moved along and thoughts were the same...everything swept along in the current of life, moving, swirling, being sucked here & there in this current of life and there was no way of controlling it, no way of knowing how and where and why it was doing what it was doing...That seemed like quite a clear moment of seeing life as it is...another time I told Pete this was the same as looking at steam or smoke...those 2 analogies seemed to make it very clear...there is no way to know, calculate or control how those things move & happen, life looks like that happening.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Please give examples from recent experience.

All of these things are mental constructs, they don't exist. Thought labels things as "I made a decision" - "I have a choice" - "I have control" That is all a thought labelling experience, labelling life happening. There is no control, there is no "I" making any decisions, there is no "I" making any choices. Life is happening, it is always just happening, any sense that there is any control over this is an illusion created by thought and labelling. There is no "I' so how can there be "I" making choices, having control, intention etc? There can't b/c "I" doesn't exist, only life exists and is happening outside of any controlling mechanism.

Examples from recent experience, "I" go to sleep at night, every night, "I" wake up every morning. "I" have no control over when "I" fall asleep or wake. "I" don't set alarms, so waking just happens whenever it happens...and to prove this unequivocally, often "I" wake a short time after falling asleep at night, maybe an hour later, or between 2 and 4am..."I" sure as hell am not loving being awake & "I" sure as hell haven't "decided/chosen/intended" to be awake at these times...this is life just happening - no control - can't do anything about it, life is doing whatever it wants regardless of how "I" might feel or what "I" might want to happen...

It's pretty funny and cracks me up a bit b/c it is so completely ludicrous to believe that there is an "I" that can control any of this :) It is all so completely out of "my" control. There is just life, there is no control over it....it's comical that thought "thinks" it can control or has control over life...life is so massive - it's so continuous, it's so constant...it is like thinking you can control a tidal wave and the ocean.

Another example...eating...when "I" put food in my mouth, tasting happens, "I" can't control taste at all, there is no control over the sensation of taste occurring...taste absolutely happens, every time, regardless, and chewing and swallowing the same...nothing is deciding or choosing and controlling this, it just happens regardless of what thought thinks and labels the experience as...even if "I" were to "decide" to stop chewing & spit the food out...there is no "I" doing that, there is no "I" deciding or doing, so it's just more of life happening, life doing, life deciding if life decides...that "I" don't know, life just is, does & happens..."I" haven't a clue if life "decides".

6) Anything to add?

Well, "I" don't think there is anything to add here, that's all folks :) Much love to one and all xxn

[moondog]

Hi Anna,

Thanks for your splendidly clear, detailed replies.

I'll now ask the guides to have a look at this thread and will let you know as soon as I can whether they have any queries to clarify anything, as they often do. It's a good idea to check from time to time, to keep the flow going if necessary. It can take a day or two or longer, or it can be quicker. No worries.

After that, I'll arrange for you to get access to various group on LU site and the Facebook groups. Looking forward to your PM with your FB details if you want to join the various FB groups.

Pete x

[Anna77]

Sounds great pete :) We'll sit and wait and see what unfolds!

I'm really looking forward to being able to continue with a group to remind myself to keep looking at direct experience on a daily basis. I'll pm details for FB :) xxn

[moondog]

Hi Anna,

I'm really pleased to be able to tell you that the guides are satisfied that you've seen through the illusion of a separate self and that they have no queries.

I'll now get in touch with LU admin to get you 'turned blue' and they'll soon contact you with invitations to the various groups etc. I'll pass your FB details on to them as soon as you PM them to me.

You've been a pleasure to guide and I've really enjoyed your replies and comments. I'm very happy to have helped you see through the illusion of a separate self.

Go well Anna :)

Pete x