Today I was grappling with that concept of destroying ego - transcending ego and all that stuff that's taught in meditation circles. And yes, I see it doesn't exist to destroy. But wasn't sure what to make of what was left...
What you say makes sense. It's like there is a creature that sees, hears, smells etc. Then the creature thinks thoughts about those sensations, has preferences, opinions etc. Much less negative, nothing to fix or get rid of.
Thanks so much Ilona for your love and dedication to this
Request for a guide
Re: Request for a guide
there is an idea, that there is a creature. but have a look, is it actually there, or just an idea.
take a fruit, that you like, smell it, feel the texture, bite it, experience the taste.. while examining all that, see if there is a senser, a perceiver, a character? is there a gap between perceiving and perceived?
is the taste still happening, if you don't think about it? how about touch and smell?
describe the taste with as many words as you can. can you see how words describe, but don't even come close to experience?
sending love.
take a fruit, that you like, smell it, feel the texture, bite it, experience the taste.. while examining all that, see if there is a senser, a perceiver, a character? is there a gap between perceiving and perceived?
is the taste still happening, if you don't think about it? how about touch and smell?
describe the taste with as many words as you can. can you see how words describe, but don't even come close to experience?
sending love.
See for yourself.
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
Re: Request for a guide
Yes, you're right, the creature is an idea, a thought. Thoughts come and go, nothing directs them.
There is a gap between perceiving and perceived. Describing the experience is not the experience.
There is no self, no ego to experience anything.
The fear earlier that was resisting this, it was confusing... a stream of thoughts. It seems strange now that a stream of thoughts would mean anything. I guess there's so much habit and practice at attending to these thoughts and getting caught up in a panic loop of 'me' thinking.
It's clear that fear is a thought. Not directed by anyone, nothing to direct it. The sensations that arise with fear are just that - sensations. There isn't anyone to feel them. That's a relief!
Who feels relief?
No one. It was just a thought :)
There is a gap between perceiving and perceived. Describing the experience is not the experience.
There is no self, no ego to experience anything.
The fear earlier that was resisting this, it was confusing... a stream of thoughts. It seems strange now that a stream of thoughts would mean anything. I guess there's so much habit and practice at attending to these thoughts and getting caught up in a panic loop of 'me' thinking.
It's clear that fear is a thought. Not directed by anyone, nothing to direct it. The sensations that arise with fear are just that - sensations. There isn't anyone to feel them. That's a relief!
Who feels relief?
No one. It was just a thought :)
Re: Request for a guide
I'm not sure if you typed it wrong or you found the gap.There is a gap between perceiving and perceived.
Can you expand on this?
Very good to notice, that fear is a sensation. What is behind fear? What is the fear trying to cover, to protect?
Sending much love your way.
See for yourself.
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
Re: Request for a guide
ooops... a typo, there is no gap, there is just perceiving.
Well the fear is just thought thinking there is something to protect, but it's just an idea. There's nothing to protect.
Well the fear is just thought thinking there is something to protect, but it's just an idea. There's nothing to protect.
Re: Request for a guide
I've been looking at beliefs today, ones that have had a strong hold, like:
I should meditate and become enlightened
The negative thoughts I have are the cause of my emotional pain
I create my own suffering
I should help people in order to have a worthwhile life
and....
I am Jodie
But these are thoughts, labelled as beliefs. Interesting.
'I am Jodie' is a thought, that's all. There's no owner of the thought.
I was walking with my groceries to the car this afternoon and a thought was nagging from the conversation at the checkout and I could feel the pull to start rolling with some internal dialogue, but instead thinking dropped and there was everything except thought. It was different to times where I've made an effort to observe sensations (sight, sounds etc). Then there was an observer assessing it all. But today it was effortless, like life happening.
Makes me question the need for hours of meditation every day. Why have I been doing that all these years? A special time to sit and 'observe reality as it is'. When it's done with 'an observer' seeking enlightenment it seems rather foolish. I guess there is perceiving, but no need to sit cross legged on a cushion for that. It's happening anyway.
I should meditate and become enlightened
The negative thoughts I have are the cause of my emotional pain
I create my own suffering
I should help people in order to have a worthwhile life
and....
I am Jodie
But these are thoughts, labelled as beliefs. Interesting.
'I am Jodie' is a thought, that's all. There's no owner of the thought.
I was walking with my groceries to the car this afternoon and a thought was nagging from the conversation at the checkout and I could feel the pull to start rolling with some internal dialogue, but instead thinking dropped and there was everything except thought. It was different to times where I've made an effort to observe sensations (sight, sounds etc). Then there was an observer assessing it all. But today it was effortless, like life happening.
Makes me question the need for hours of meditation every day. Why have I been doing that all these years? A special time to sit and 'observe reality as it is'. When it's done with 'an observer' seeking enlightenment it seems rather foolish. I guess there is perceiving, but no need to sit cross legged on a cushion for that. It's happening anyway.
Re: Request for a guide
:) yes, it's all happening anyway.. Life goes on, with and without idea of observer. Perceiving is happenig, with and without idea of perceiver. Without ideas it's raw, intimate, peaceful..
It's like a little shift, from trying to observe to noticing observing effortlessly. From thinking to being.
can you say with a big fat YES, that it's clear- separate self is an illusion?
If not, is there anything else that wants to be looked at?
Sending love
It's like a little shift, from trying to observe to noticing observing effortlessly. From thinking to being.
can you say with a big fat YES, that it's clear- separate self is an illusion?
If not, is there anything else that wants to be looked at?
Sending love
See for yourself.
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
Re: Request for a guide
YES! in a big fat kind of way :)
yes, noticing happens, perceiving happens, life happens.
The clincher in the last few days has been with unpleasantness and fear arising in some way (with thoughts and feelings). And noticing the compulsion to react (with more thoughts/reasons/rationales), to protect 'self' with some idea that 'I' am ok, safe, right etc. But this protecting mechanism seemed futile. Nothing to protect. Wow
Just life happening.
I asked before if it's possible to forget this and you replied that it can be hidden, but you just have to look again (something like that anyway). Thank you for guiding the way and pointing to this... and for all the love.
Sending much gratitude x
yes, noticing happens, perceiving happens, life happens.
The clincher in the last few days has been with unpleasantness and fear arising in some way (with thoughts and feelings). And noticing the compulsion to react (with more thoughts/reasons/rationales), to protect 'self' with some idea that 'I' am ok, safe, right etc. But this protecting mechanism seemed futile. Nothing to protect. Wow
Just life happening.
I asked before if it's possible to forget this and you replied that it can be hidden, but you just have to look again (something like that anyway). Thank you for guiding the way and pointing to this... and for all the love.
Sending much gratitude x
Re: Request for a guide
Wonderful!
Here are some questions for you, please take time and answer what feels true to you.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?
Much love your way!
Here are some questions for you, please take time and answer what feels true to you.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?
Much love your way!
See for yourself.
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
Re: Request for a guide
Hi Ilona :)
These are some thoughts I've had about the questions.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no separate entity, a self, me or I at all. At birth there was only perceiving, life happening. Now there is still only perceiving, life happening. A separate self can not exist, it's not real.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It seems the illusion of a separate self is formed with language. A child is taught language and starts to use words to label perceiving. As living continues to happen it is clouded with thoughts of living. There becomes 'someone' living life, and the illusion that 'one thing living' is separate from 'another thing living' forms continually.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Before I started this dialogue I thought the ego was a problem and that dissolving it would bring me relief from suffering. I created all sorts of beliefs about that. And feeling that I 'knew' all this created a sense of importance and superiority. It was agony when I felt others were superior to me or if they criticised me. This felt constricting and fearful, like a striving was necessary and I was failing all the time. The striving gave the 'me' a context to live in, to create some meaning about life, and the idea that 'I' could live it well... which really just meant creating some 'evidence' that I was better than others.
Now it's like the problem of the ego IS the problem. Just thinking about it creates the problem. There is no ego to dissolve. It doesn't exist.
Still, I stumble with it. Last night I met with my ex, who is refusing to accept that he's an ex. I noticed the reactions happening, the gripping feeling in the abdomen all forming from thoughts of fear as I constructed a 'me' to be protected from criticism, being wrong etc. Sometimes it was happening to a 'me', sometimes there was just the sensations happening. I felt like he was putting words in my mouth that don't belong there, and while I had the understanding that there was 'no ones mouth' to put words in, it was intellectual understanding and 'I' was reacting. I tried to explain this too him and it didn't go well. After he left there was a lot of buzzing in my brain and body. I'd label it anxiety/fear.
This morning it feels like a dream. I replay parts of the dream, doubt floats past, there is perceiving now, another doubt floats past... surrendering to all this.
Prior to this dialogue I would have reasoned with my self afterwards, created some story about how I'm right and he's wrong, doesn't understand me etc. While, this still happened to some degree, it is feeble - like watching the physiology settle, and the pulsing of life continue.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I noticed the fear loop maintaining the illusion of the separate self was playing out in this guided dialogue with you. A long pattern of looking to a guru - an authority figure - to affirm that I am special, worthy, better than others etc, was happening. Like leaving one cult to join another. Make the other cult wrong and this one right. Would Ilona give me membership?
Even writing this, such thoughts float past... the self using this dialogue as a tool for delusion. A self perceiving, then just perceiving.
A few days ago I had a cold coming, sore throat and everything - which is usually a sign that I'm not expressing something important. I started writing and lots of stuff came out, all the past guru's I've used and then turned on. I saw I was doing it now. The lie. What it did to affirm itself, to keep itself going. And yet... no one to be approved of. Whether I was told I was 'through' made no difference. I got there was no gate. Better that life happens than to live a lie. I thought about the point of the dialogue and thought about ending it. But there was a 'me' wanting to do that... so here I am
5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.
A decision is a thought, and I've wondered about this. Does life happen as a non-thinking vegetable!?
Looking at this over the last few days I see it like; a thought happens, perceiving happens, the brain makes an assessment and another thought happens - I guess this could be labelled as a decision, intention, free will etc. But what ever it is, it's done. Any long winded thinking about the decision, such as labelling it a good or bad one, second guessing, doubting - all that - creates an illusion of free will and that there is someone to make a decision and to have control.
Maybe the perceiving that happens is like a knowing or intuition or something like that. Like, life happening as knowing. No one makes things happen. There is just life happening, life knowing.
I remember you mention in a previous post that behavioural patterns, habits, preferences etc can be called character. This was useful last week when I had a thought to travel. The thought was followed by many sensations. Some labelling went on for a while. Excitement, fear, worry. Good decision, bad decision. Exhausting really, so I gave up on it eventually, but there wasn't any clear knowing about it either. Later (maybe the next day) I thought this again, 'will I travel?' Same thing started to happen so I left it.
A few days later the thought popped up again. I surrendered to the excitement, fear and worry, seeing the pattern of indecision come up and feeling the intensity of the emotions. They washed over and then other thoughts flowed through and it was like the thoughts of character arose with preferences of what I like to do when travelling, places I've been to in the past, what felt good etc. Surrendering to the flow of images and thoughts there was a 'yes' feeling for a place and a time. I booked the tickets and it was done.
So I guess I made a decision to book flights, but it feels different to the way I'd usually do it. Surrendering to the emotions and letting the knowing come through felt more like flowing with a current. Like being moved in a direction, rather than directing motion with decisions.
6) Anything to add?
It feels like a slippery slope into illusion of a separate self. I imagine there are walls and they are slippery - so they are!!
I also imagine this is a thought habit and that it gets weaker if it's not fed.
While writing this I also feel the long, hard trek to create the illusion. It takes effort. Truth is effortless. Life happens.
These are some thoughts I've had about the questions.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no separate entity, a self, me or I at all. At birth there was only perceiving, life happening. Now there is still only perceiving, life happening. A separate self can not exist, it's not real.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It seems the illusion of a separate self is formed with language. A child is taught language and starts to use words to label perceiving. As living continues to happen it is clouded with thoughts of living. There becomes 'someone' living life, and the illusion that 'one thing living' is separate from 'another thing living' forms continually.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Before I started this dialogue I thought the ego was a problem and that dissolving it would bring me relief from suffering. I created all sorts of beliefs about that. And feeling that I 'knew' all this created a sense of importance and superiority. It was agony when I felt others were superior to me or if they criticised me. This felt constricting and fearful, like a striving was necessary and I was failing all the time. The striving gave the 'me' a context to live in, to create some meaning about life, and the idea that 'I' could live it well... which really just meant creating some 'evidence' that I was better than others.
Now it's like the problem of the ego IS the problem. Just thinking about it creates the problem. There is no ego to dissolve. It doesn't exist.
Still, I stumble with it. Last night I met with my ex, who is refusing to accept that he's an ex. I noticed the reactions happening, the gripping feeling in the abdomen all forming from thoughts of fear as I constructed a 'me' to be protected from criticism, being wrong etc. Sometimes it was happening to a 'me', sometimes there was just the sensations happening. I felt like he was putting words in my mouth that don't belong there, and while I had the understanding that there was 'no ones mouth' to put words in, it was intellectual understanding and 'I' was reacting. I tried to explain this too him and it didn't go well. After he left there was a lot of buzzing in my brain and body. I'd label it anxiety/fear.
This morning it feels like a dream. I replay parts of the dream, doubt floats past, there is perceiving now, another doubt floats past... surrendering to all this.
Prior to this dialogue I would have reasoned with my self afterwards, created some story about how I'm right and he's wrong, doesn't understand me etc. While, this still happened to some degree, it is feeble - like watching the physiology settle, and the pulsing of life continue.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I noticed the fear loop maintaining the illusion of the separate self was playing out in this guided dialogue with you. A long pattern of looking to a guru - an authority figure - to affirm that I am special, worthy, better than others etc, was happening. Like leaving one cult to join another. Make the other cult wrong and this one right. Would Ilona give me membership?
Even writing this, such thoughts float past... the self using this dialogue as a tool for delusion. A self perceiving, then just perceiving.
A few days ago I had a cold coming, sore throat and everything - which is usually a sign that I'm not expressing something important. I started writing and lots of stuff came out, all the past guru's I've used and then turned on. I saw I was doing it now. The lie. What it did to affirm itself, to keep itself going. And yet... no one to be approved of. Whether I was told I was 'through' made no difference. I got there was no gate. Better that life happens than to live a lie. I thought about the point of the dialogue and thought about ending it. But there was a 'me' wanting to do that... so here I am
5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.
A decision is a thought, and I've wondered about this. Does life happen as a non-thinking vegetable!?
Looking at this over the last few days I see it like; a thought happens, perceiving happens, the brain makes an assessment and another thought happens - I guess this could be labelled as a decision, intention, free will etc. But what ever it is, it's done. Any long winded thinking about the decision, such as labelling it a good or bad one, second guessing, doubting - all that - creates an illusion of free will and that there is someone to make a decision and to have control.
Maybe the perceiving that happens is like a knowing or intuition or something like that. Like, life happening as knowing. No one makes things happen. There is just life happening, life knowing.
I remember you mention in a previous post that behavioural patterns, habits, preferences etc can be called character. This was useful last week when I had a thought to travel. The thought was followed by many sensations. Some labelling went on for a while. Excitement, fear, worry. Good decision, bad decision. Exhausting really, so I gave up on it eventually, but there wasn't any clear knowing about it either. Later (maybe the next day) I thought this again, 'will I travel?' Same thing started to happen so I left it.
A few days later the thought popped up again. I surrendered to the excitement, fear and worry, seeing the pattern of indecision come up and feeling the intensity of the emotions. They washed over and then other thoughts flowed through and it was like the thoughts of character arose with preferences of what I like to do when travelling, places I've been to in the past, what felt good etc. Surrendering to the flow of images and thoughts there was a 'yes' feeling for a place and a time. I booked the tickets and it was done.
So I guess I made a decision to book flights, but it feels different to the way I'd usually do it. Surrendering to the emotions and letting the knowing come through felt more like flowing with a current. Like being moved in a direction, rather than directing motion with decisions.
6) Anything to add?
It feels like a slippery slope into illusion of a separate self. I imagine there are walls and they are slippery - so they are!!
I also imagine this is a thought habit and that it gets weaker if it's not fed.
While writing this I also feel the long, hard trek to create the illusion. It takes effort. Truth is effortless. Life happens.
Re: Request for a guide
Beautiful answers Jodie! Thank you. Sorry I wasn't able to answer earlier. Passing away of a dear friend took me to experience of deep sadness and that wasn't the pace to answer from.
This made me smile- does life happen as a non-thinking vegetable? Hehe. Well no. Thinking is included. All is included. Nothing is outside of life. Life expresses as thinking, as selfing, as you. As decision making, as trip planing, as thinking and being excited. All has its place.
You can find stability in knowing, that here now is it. This is it. And keep looking. You know now where and how to look, that is the tool to dispell all kinds of foggy thinking. Just look- where is this I , the separate entity, now?
Some thought patterns drop with seeing that I is not there. Some deeper conditioning will need work. And everything that comes up for you is part of clearing process. It takes time to deconstruct what was build upon the self illusion. This is an opening to the real exporation.
Looks to me that you found home. :) now it's time to settle. And carry on with looking.
Is there anything else you may want to explore now?
Much love.
This made me smile- does life happen as a non-thinking vegetable? Hehe. Well no. Thinking is included. All is included. Nothing is outside of life. Life expresses as thinking, as selfing, as you. As decision making, as trip planing, as thinking and being excited. All has its place.
You can find stability in knowing, that here now is it. This is it. And keep looking. You know now where and how to look, that is the tool to dispell all kinds of foggy thinking. Just look- where is this I , the separate entity, now?
Some thought patterns drop with seeing that I is not there. Some deeper conditioning will need work. And everything that comes up for you is part of clearing process. It takes time to deconstruct what was build upon the self illusion. This is an opening to the real exporation.
Looks to me that you found home. :) now it's time to settle. And carry on with looking.
Is there anything else you may want to explore now?
Much love.
See for yourself.
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
Re: Request for a guide
Dear Ilona, I'm sorry to hear of your friends passing and the sadness.
Your reply rings true and it's reassuring to hear the things you say. I feel more alive. Not in the 'oh so happy' kind of way, but in a 'raw, wanting to feel whatever is happening' kind of way. I'm not scared to feel it.
Just look. So simple, yet with no beliefs it is so profound.
I will keep exploring. Like you say, real exploration. If there are questions I have I will post again.
For now though, I just want to thank you for everything you share. Revealing life is no small thing.
With much gratitude, Jodie
Your reply rings true and it's reassuring to hear the things you say. I feel more alive. Not in the 'oh so happy' kind of way, but in a 'raw, wanting to feel whatever is happening' kind of way. I'm not scared to feel it.
Just look. So simple, yet with no beliefs it is so profound.
I will keep exploring. Like you say, real exploration. If there are questions I have I will post again.
For now though, I just want to thank you for everything you share. Revealing life is no small thing.
With much gratitude, Jodie
Re: Request for a guide
Dear Jodie,
I'm very happy to welcome you home.. Thank you for LOOKING! :)
One of other guides asks this question:
In question 5 she say the brain makes an assessment and another thought happens. Can you ask her what is the actual experience of the brain? or Do you experience the brain having thoughts or thoughts just appear.
How would you answer that?
Much love your way.
I'm very happy to welcome you home.. Thank you for LOOKING! :)
One of other guides asks this question:
In question 5 she say the brain makes an assessment and another thought happens. Can you ask her what is the actual experience of the brain? or Do you experience the brain having thoughts or thoughts just appear.
How would you answer that?
Much love your way.
See for yourself.
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
Re: Request for a guide
Thanks Ilona :)
I really welcome your questions too. In answer to this one:
Thoughts just appear. I see there is some matter labelled as a brain. This organ receives impressions from the senses and then it reacts and influences the biology of the organism. Sometimes it seems that the thoughts arising are influenced by the reactions and responses of the brain... sometimes thoughts seem more random.
There isn't anyone with a brain though. Or anyone perceiving and responding. Just life happening.
With much love, Jodie
I really welcome your questions too. In answer to this one:
Thoughts just appear. I see there is some matter labelled as a brain. This organ receives impressions from the senses and then it reacts and influences the biology of the organism. Sometimes it seems that the thoughts arising are influenced by the reactions and responses of the brain... sometimes thoughts seem more random.
There isn't anyone with a brain though. Or anyone perceiving and responding. Just life happening.
With much love, Jodie
Re: Request for a guide
Thank you, Jodie.
You say, that you see there is some matter labelled as a brain. How do you see that in actual experience? Which sense perception informs about presence or absense of brain?
Much love.
You say, that you see there is some matter labelled as a brain. How do you see that in actual experience? Which sense perception informs about presence or absense of brain?
Much love.
See for yourself.
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 44 guests