Thread for 'JeremyM'

[Xain]

I understand that I is just a pointer, now as for any kind of shift in the way I am experiencing everything, nothing has changed.

What change is expected? Specifically what or who is going to change?
What 'I' is experiencing?

Christianity is a heavy thought to leave behind. It baffles me to think there is no God at all, other than this chaotic energy that happened to form everything by chance, which is a possibility.

You have my great respect for doing so. I was never a religious person, and so it was never much of a hurdle to get through.

The mind (thought) always wants answers and definite things to land on.
Also, it can only deal with separate stuff - Individual objects - Labels - Qualities - Descriptions.
When it begins trying to examine some-sort of absolute - Like 'everything', it begins to struggle.
So it is very easy to think of a 'thing' (God) that made everything and controls everything. Easy for the mind to grasp. For people to understand.
I think that the Bible and Christianity began with an element of truth but became confused.
For example, when Jesus said 'Before Abraham was, I am', I take it to mean that he understood that whatever he truly was, was not a limited body and mind that was born and would die. What he really was, was something that is not separate from everything else, and something that wasn't limited or 'time bound'.

There's no point really, I was mostly just having fun with this new way of thinking. It would prove difficult indeed to talk in that manner all of the time.

It would - And there are groups who talk in the 'third person' all the time. It really doesn't help.

Feeling a hard push from you on this one. 'I' is not something real. 'I' is just a thought, a pointer. What started this conversation, what started the search for an 'I'? It just happened like everything else. There's no separate self to be found, only thoughts and ideas about one.

Beautifully clear! :-) ♥

It seems I understand the concept logically, but not experientially.

Who is going get something experientially?
I think you are already there! And at the same time, you realise there is no separate you 'there' :-)

Xain ♥

[JeremyM]

Lol, yes. I'm pretty sure I'm there. I'm assuming you've read the Gateless Gatecrashers. I distinctly remember ad guy who had been practicing meditation for 20 years or so, and he had gone to retreats and everything, only to find out that "enlightenment" was way more simple than he had thought. I still have an association with the 'I' as being separate, although I know it is not. I could rewrite this whole paragraph without the use of I, but for the sake of convenience I won't. Thank you for your guidance; maybe I'll become a guide in the future. We'll see how the experience goes.

Interesting thoughts on Jesus. The thoughts from my perspective align completely.

[Xain]

Well Jeremy, I am perfectly happy to continue until things are clear for you.
Also, there are a further six questions I can ask when you are ready as part of this process.

Are there any further questions or areas to explore?
Perhaps something was expected to happen or be 'experienced'?
Let me know how you feel.

Xain ♥

[JeremyM]

It couldn't hurt to go further. I'm ready when you are. Yes, something more was expected honestly, even though you told me not to expect anything more than this haha. Can't really change my expectations. The Buddhist idea of Samadhi would have been nice, but

[Xain]

The Buddhist idea of Samadhi would have been nice, but . . .

:-) There are many further things to look into. This may be considered to be only a starting point (but a very important one!)
I am not a Buddhist, but I believe what you have realised is akin to 'stream entry'.

I'll give you the first three of the six questions. They may bring up further things we can look at.
Have a look at them, and give the answers a go when you have a moment:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

Xain ♥

[JeremyM]

Hmm, I will have to look into stream entry. I am not a Buddhist either, but I resonate well with a lot of Buddhist principles.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there's no separate self, never was.

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.

It doesn't really feel much different. I do feel kind of more emotionally detached, but not in a bad way. It's kind of like watching a movie that is called Jeremy. I've also been embracing my agnosticism more fully.

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

I was probably pushed over at the point when I was trying to control my breath and blinking, and then you mentioned that the thought to blink or breathe was just a thought, much like the arm exercise.

[Xain]

I was probably pushed over at the point when I was trying to control my breath and blinking, and then you mentioned that the thought to blink or breathe was just a thought, much like the arm exercise.

Was there ever a separate 'you' doing any exercise?

Here are the last three of the six questions:

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. (Feel free to use conventional language here)

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if possible.

6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?

Xain ♥

[JeremyM]

Was there ever a separate 'you' doing any exercise?

Only an illusion of a separate me.

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. (Feel free to use conventional language here)

The illusion of separate self is kind of a heavy association with the thought 'I.' I can't pinpoint the beginning, but it starts when we first start learning language, when we are given a name even. "Jeremy" is what my mother calls me, so now that is 'me'. Thoughts and emotions arise as life happens, we begin to pick favorite colors, which foods we like etc. depending on whether the association of thought and emotions with a particular concept or object is positive or negative. The repetition of these ideas continue to build the illusion of the separate self, as the thoughts become almost more heavy.

We forget that we have no control over any part of our experience at all because we become so heavily involved with these thought patterns that appear to create a consistent, separate stream of personality.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Decision, intention, free will, choice and control are all in the same basket because there is no such thing as free will. Decisions, choices, control and intention are all just ideas/concepts/thoughts.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

I don't know if anyone truly knows what makes things happen. The experience is definitely real and continuous, but it is a natural unfolding of things that kind of build off of each other. It seems there is a fundamental pattern that all things in this universe are built from, a continuous evolution.

It's like a multidimensional movie, filled with incredible sensations and emotions and events, and it is easy to forget it is just a movie. Like if you've ever seen a scary movie and you become frightened, nearly jumping out of your seat. One may see a romance and get one's heart broken, see a comedy and laugh. One becomes engulfed in the storyline and associates with the characters, and for a moment one is able to forget that they're sitting in a theatre.

What are you responsible for?

Responsibility is just another thought. Because everything is unfolding either as it will and there is no control, there is nothing to be responsible for.

6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?

I don't have much else to add really. The thought of uncertainty of where to go from here arises, but I know the experience will take me wherever it will.

[Xain]

Great replies, thanks Jeremy.

You said that "Decisions, choices, control and intention are all just ideas/concepts/thoughts".
Could you give some examples of how you see this to be true in your experience?

Xain ♥

[JeremyM]

Okay. Say you wake up and take a shower. Do you think "I need to turn the water on?" When you're thirsty by yourself, do you usually think "I am thirsty?" In my experience, I usually do not think about these things, my arm just turns the faucet on. There is just the feeling of thirst, which leads to me getting a drink of some sort, but there is no 'I' that is thirsty, only the thirst itself. However, if I'm around someone else I might express the thought "I'm thirsty" to the other person in order to express how I'm feeling.

So when you're turning on the water, when you're feeling thirsty, where are your thoughts? Perhaps you are thinking of some project you have to do at work, maybe there's even a feeling of dread and stress. Maybe you're thinking of a loved one, or something funny you'd read the night before. You go to work and someone asks you what you'd eaten for breakfast, so you begin to recall little thought visions and say "Actually, I didn't eat breakfast, but I was very thirsty, so I had a glass of water," although really at the time you were just doing those things, they were just happening, you weren't thinking "I am making a glass of water right now." I could be much more creative with this, but I'm trying to keep a cohesion between ideas here.

So anyway, back to the shower thing, even though in the shower you were thinking about something other than turning the water on, let's say you did think "I need to turn the shower on." Either way, what is happening here? It doesn't matter what you're thinking because the body is already turning the water on. This is an example of how you don't need 'I' to do anything. So intentions are really just an idea. Let's say, "I'm turning the shower on," okay, and now we actually turn it on, that gives the illusion that you have just had an intention and then turned your intention into a physical reality. You have now made a decision, right? But let's look at another scenario, where you're thinking about that joke you read from the night before, smiling to yourself, you think "Why did the chicken cross the road?" as you turn the shower on. Well where did the intention go now?

I mean, really I feel that I'm just overcomplicating this very simple idea. 'I' is just a word, a pointer. Language is a bunch of symbols that point to something. A chair is not a 'chair,' it is just what it is in and of itself, but the human race would most likely be incredibly lost if we didn't have this ability to distinguish between objects. I am not 'Jeremy,' I just am. I'm a 'human being.' Oh screw it, it's impossible to capture the essence of anything through pointer tools. It's as if when we mistake ourselves for being 'I,' we take the painting of the apple to actually be the apple, missing the reality of the apple entirely.

Although this isn't the point of our dialogue, I will say that I think emotions are the root of experience. There is an emotion, and your thoughts kind of metaphorically spring up in a harmony with the emotion, and then the actions arise either according to the preceding thoughts or to the direct root of the emotion depending on how used to the action you are. We don't think about turning on the shower because we've done it so much, however, if you were learning a new instrument for instance, your thoughts would be more centered around how to properly play a note or song.

[Xain]

Thank you for your great reply, Jeremy.
That question 5 can be a bit of a stinker.

The other guides are very happy with your responses and so am I.
This guidance is now at an end. However, there is much more to explore and consider.
If you would like (and you are on Facebook), I can add you to our Facebook groups for new arrivals, general discussion and further exploration. If you would like this, please tell me your facebook name and/or page link in a private message and I will arrange this for you. (Click the red name 'Xain' and then choose 'Send Private Message').

All the best for the future, and thank you
Xain ♥