Thread for Hannah Brown

[HannahBrown]

Hi, sorry I missed yesterday, I was caught up doing things with and for my Mother and the internet was playing up. All good now.

So, I have had lots of opportunities to play with taste! Currently tasting my Lapsang Souchong tea. It seems relatively easy to let go of 'taster' and just experience taste because there is no agency, or choice. As long as there is some awareness it's just taste continuing. Same with the hearing. The agency part is in the noticing, so I can let go of who/what is hearing or tasting. However there is still choice in what to taste, what to put in the mouth, which gives rise to the sense of self. I am not arguing or trying to analyse, that's just how it appears to me.
Hb

[Mad biker]

However there is still choice in what to taste, what to put in the mouth, which gives rise to the sense of self. I am not arguing or trying to analyse, that's just how it appears to me.

OK, OK Hannah! I hear you loud and clear! (puts his hands aloft in mock surrender)

I will be getting to 'thought' and 'choice' in good time!

I just want us to limber up a bit more on bodily 'looking' first, or in this case specifically tasting:


Great observation there thanks, now give me some more.

Right just do your breathing to arrive there and leave aside what went before. Just arriving, just being.

It seems relatively easy to let go of 'taster' and just experience taste

'Seems'?

Well is it relatively easy, or is it not relatively easy Hannah?

But more significantly: What is this 'letting go' you tell me about?

Who or what is doing this 'letting go'?

Is there in fact any 'letting go' being done?

Was there an actual taster before this 'letting go'? A taster 'who' only ceased to exist after the 'letting go'

Or instead was there never any taster at all but simply taste itself, with 'taster' being a later construct? An imputation tacked-on immediately after the fact of basic direct tasting itself?

Just re-visit the exercise again. Just take another look and get back to me answering all the questions above.
Mb

[HannahBrown]

Hello!
I am liking your replies to me!

Well is it relatively easy, or is it not relatively easy Hannah?

Yes it is quite easy!

But more significantly: What is this 'letting go' you tell me about?

The letting go is when I stop trying to think it through rationally. The bit of me that tries to stay in control and that thinks it is in charge. It is very persistent but in direct experience there is no taster, there is only taste. So the taster did not cease to exist after 'letting go' but the idea that there is a taster got dropped. So there was not someone letting go, just an idea being dropped (temporarily!)

I can feel my 'ego-mind' (if that's what it is) squirming in the face of this experience, I 'know' the theory, and believe the teachings, but in an abstract way, there is such resistance to being with this experience fully.

HB x

[Mad biker]

FANFARE! And full marks!
Lovely stuff!
I am off to London soon.

I might manage to get another one out to you before tomorrow but perhaps not, but you are looking just fine.
Mb

[Mad biker]

Meanwhile look at this:

We can sometimes take thought too seriously:

Again WHERE thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can a thought ITSELF actually think something?
Can a thought ITSELF actually be responsible for anything?
Can thought actually DO anything in itself?

Are they not already history by the time you have noticed them (therefore are they not ALWAYS about the past?)

[HannahBrown]

Hi Mad Biker,

We can sometimes take thought too seriously:

Yes, I see that, there have been times that I have felt overwhelmed by the proliferation of thoughts, by the constant discursive commentary or the nagging anxious worrying type thoughts, ( these usually in the middle of the night).

Again WHERE thoughts come from?
Where are they going?

I guess mostly they come from nowhere but their nature is governed by my views and habits, my ideas about who I am and how the world is. They can arise in response to these habits or to defend those views, even though I may not be very aware of those underlying views. Although I suspect they all come from believing I have a fixed separate self.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No to all the above

Can a thought ITSELF actually think something?
Can a thought ITSELF actually be responsible for anything?
Can thought actually DO anything in itself?

I don't fully understand those questions, but can see the answer is no, especially clear in the last question, a thought cannot actually DO anything in itself, other than how it affects my mental state, emotionally. Actually the responsibility one is interesting. If we are taking responsibility for our actions, but the action was entirely triggered by a thought process, based on a view, then who or what should take responsibility? If there is no self to take responsibility, then is there just acknowledgement of the action, confession, understanding, forgiveness, but no subject?

Are they not already history by the time you have noticed them (therefore are they not ALWAYS about the past?)

Yes, I can see that, but what about when I am planning or fantasising about the future?

HB x

[HannahBrown]

I have been putting off telling you this because I have been in denial about how difficult it might be to keep posting. On Wednesday I am setting off to drive a van down through France to Spain. It will probably be very difficult tp post till I get to Spain, probably about a week later, but I will try. If I find free wifi cafés in rural France I will use them to post but will do the exercises with my morning meditation. The posting is bound to become erratic. I am sorry about this but hope you can bear with me. I return here on 5th April.
With Metta,
HB

[Mad biker]

Not long back from London after a tiring outing so I am feeling a bit Friar Tucked.

Hey do have a good road trip and let's see what can be done to stay in touch:

Here are 300 Cyber Caffs locations in France and Spain but do phone first to see if they are still open as Cybers area dying trade.

Best bet for both countries are Cybers with Morrocan proprietors as these are still open and will stay open.

http://www.cybercafes.com/country.asp?s ... try=FRANCE

http://www.cybercafes.com/country.asp?s ... ntry=Spain

But I will be back here with you tomorrow morning addressing your latest after a much needed bed.
Mb

[Mad biker]

Yes, I see that, there have been times that I have felt overwhelmed by the proliferation of thoughts, by the constant discursive commentary or the nagging anxious worrying type thoughts, ( these usually in the middle of the night).

I know! 'thought' is largely a load of old cobblers isn't it?! (see more below)

Although I suspect they all come from believing I have a fixed separate self.

Mmm, well the really crap ones do! However the bad news is that thought continues to arrive from nowhere even after you have seen through Self-View because consciousness just continues to generate content.

It is like seeing: You can still see after awakening the way you see now. But even now, do you really take seriously everything you see or read? You see clowns or kids messing around and you know it is just clowns and kids messing around. You know you could switch on the TV to watch a Soap or a Serial that everyone is raving about but you don't bother because it is not your kind of thing. You could pick up a copy of 'The Sun' at your local Newsagents but I'll bet you just don't bother? It is the same after seeing through Self-View. Rubbish thoughts come up but you do not take them seriously. Prior to seeing through, we too often take rubbish thoughts seriously because we experience thoughts as being who we actually are!

It is like the weather. It comes and it goes. It is not set in stone. Do you take the weather seriously? Especially in the UK you can often get four seasons in one day?

Can a thought ITSELF actually think something?
Can a thought ITSELF actually be responsible for anything?
Can thought actually DO anything in itself?



I don't fully understand those questions,

OK, we usually don't see 'thought' as a 'thing'. We tend to have it placed upon a far, far more exalted pedestal than that. (I mean is it not actually who we are at-the-end-of-the-day for Christ's sake?) Now, for the purposes of exposition I am turning 'a thought' into a 'thing', or, more accurately, I am drawing attention to the fact that a thought is in reality nothing more than a thing, and I am doing this to move towards breaking down the notion that a thought is somehow our self

Eg you might think a thought:

'desk'
'wall'
'carpet'
' Mmm, what time is the next bus to Exeter?'

Let us call any one of those thoughts; 'Dave'
Now. What I am asking is; can Dave actually think something?

I am deliberately leaving the matter of responsibility aside for the time being.

Please re-read this whole post from the start before answering. Not the whole thread just this post of mine.

Mb

[Mad biker]

There are three more above this one, which is just to say, that I don't want you to be rushing things with this journey coming up, as your TTD list will be acquiring the length and weight they always customarily do pre-excursion.

So why don't we just suspend the 'no iphone/no ipad' rule under the circs so that your departure is less of a looming, oncoming Bardo? That way you could get free Wi Fi where ever it is available en route? France is the home of the Hypermarche and have exported same to Spain. There is no decent town in France without a Carrefoure en Espagne aussi! Carrefoure always have a signal. The same is probably true of any shopping Mall too.

So perhaps you could download me with the shopping then open up your gizmo back 'home' in a quiet spot where you can just centre your self for our 'meeting' so to speak without too much distraction kicking about? lets just see what can be done.
Mb

[HannahBrown]

Rubbish thoughts come up but you do not take them seriously. Prior to seeing through, we too often take rubbish thoughts seriously because we experience thoughts as being who we actually are!

Yes of course! That is so true, that's why I so often feel a sense of shame around thoughts I judge 'unworthy' or just 'not nice', because I think they are who I actually am.

Let us call any one of those thoughts; 'Dave'
Now. What I am asking is; can Dave actually think something?

No

Thanks for sending the list of cyber cafés , but yes I think downloading you with the shopping sounds great! I think we will manage.

[Mad biker]

Yes we will be just fine!

Good observation there.

A few more kickings for thoughts:

(But firstly arrive as always with a few nice breaths to just settle yourself kindly on that chair.)

If you simply sit quietly and pay close attention to your thoughts for 5 minutes (just time it). Notice that thoughts seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause. They are a total surprise and you can find no cause or reason for their appearance. It will become obvious you were not involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts. THIS is Direct Experience. All your other reflections on the past karmic genesis of these thoughts might well be true and probably often is, but none of that stuff is DE it is just mental proliferation. Regularly remind yourself of the difference. But it would be par for the course for me to remind you again so you are still doing just fine!

Do you ever have unpleasant thoughts? do you want to have them? If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy? So if you have no control over so much of your thinking, how can you believe that thoughts are 'self'? Is the weather 'self'?

Observe a thought. Notice that you didn’t actually do anything in order to make that thought appear. Notice also that when a thought appears, you are never given an option to avoid that thought. Every thought appears spontaneously without anyone’s permission.


Just decide to think a thought right now!

Just count down three, two, one, zero now just think a thought!

(tell me what happened)


Hold your hand a few inches above your leg. Say to yourself, "I'm going to tap my leg sometime in the next 30 seconds." Watch to see what heppens. Also observe whether or not thinking "Tap now!" has any effect. Notice exactly what happens when the hand does tap the leg (or if it doesn't).

Over the next few days just notice where a 'good idea' comes from it might be a design thing it might be a decision you arrive at. OK? Just notice a good idea and be absolutely honest about where, where it actually comes from. Just be scrupulously honest (exclude any good food ideas for this exercise)

(It might be something to do with travelling ie where and when to go for des Routes Nationales as opposed to the Autoroutes and vice versa, the sheer nostalgia of the RN20 or the samey grind of the motorway!)



Now on a completely different tack (bumper edition of homework as tomorrow is such a big day and you might need two days worth)
Do this as a completely separate exercise next day:

When you point anywhere in the world you point at appearances. You are distant from what you are looking at and you see things, you see objects. Observe this – direct your attention at things by pointing at them.

For example, I can see the shapes and colours of this room…

of my foot...

...of my knee

of my chest...

In all these instances attention is directed outwards, at objects.

Now point where others see your face.

What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you (think?) are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

Looking in to the place where others see your face, do you find colour or shape here.

What do you find?

Then..Take it further: Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like.
Mb

[HannahBrown]

Salut fou biker!
Wow that is lots to be getting on with, thanks for the bumper edition! Yesterday was a long day, but we are now in France and I have had a chance to do the first bit.

Observe a thought. Notice that you didn’t actually do anything in order to make that thought appear. Notice also that when a thought appears, you are never given an option to avoid that thought. Every thought appears spontaneously without anyone’s permission.

Yes I agree with that. I also notice that often when there is no particular new thought the mind seems to fill the space with repeating the last thought, or the last phrase heard, or that niggling tune......endlessly! Unless I am very consciously staying with body/sense awareness, well even then really, they do just keep appearing! I also notice that at the edges of sleep the thoughts become particularly random, sometimes quite dreamlike, sometimes driving me crazy! Often what appears in my mind are images.

Just decide to think a thought right now!
Just count down three, two, one, zero now just think a thought!

I can't! It doesn't seem possible, I just go blank!

Hold your hand a few inches above your leg. Say to yourself, "I'm going to tap my leg sometime in the next 30 seconds." Watch to see what heppens. Also observe whether or not thinking "Tap now!" has any effect. Notice exactly what happens when the hand does tap the leg (or if it doesn't).

Interesting! It is as though the intention is there but without any real control, I think 'Tap now' and nothing happens. There is anticipation, in the mind but then when the tap happens the experience switches immediately to sensation in the leg.

That is as far as I have got so far, I will continue to watch out for those 'good ideas' today, and find somewhere to post this from.

A bientot!
Hb x

[HannahBrown]

Bonjour!
I have only just managed to send the last one, as yesterday was beset by a mild migraine made much worse by trying to navigate and read maps. Ok now, phew.
Observations since yesterday re. Ideas:
No, I cannot lay any claim to them either, they just seem to pop up. No 'me' controlling them. Obviously I can see they arise from the karmic formations/skandhas, but we are not looking at those, just DE n'est ce pas?

Hopefully more later, this was just trying to catch up, I still have lots more to do from your last post. We are travelling on D roads mainly, so really experience the countryside rather than fast road ribbon development that is the same everywhere and pretty ugly. Its slow but very enjoyable. But it means we don't see many big Carrefours.

Merci beaucoup!
HB

[Mad biker]

Alors!
Just addressing your last one first:

No, I cannot lay any claim to them either, they just seem to pop up. No 'me' controlling them. Obviously I can see they arise from the karmic formations/skandhas, but we are not looking at those, just DE n'est ce pas?

Full marks for each of the four observations above Hannah.

But look also at when you have a really good idea or make a really good decision. Just notice over the next few hours. Perhaps it is a navigation decision.
Did you make it arise or did it just happen. Did 'self' want to quickly claim it? Did it WANT to say 'I' had that great idea 'I' made that good decision

This excercise can even work if you had one of those good ideas or decisions in the last hour or so just go back to that moment and ask whether or not 'you' actually did anything at all to make that good idea or decision arise.

With GOOD ideas we tend to more easily want to experience it as something that was our own creation.
Do your nice few breaths before the exercise too!
Mb