Ready to look?

[Canfora]

Keep me posted, Jennie! Some examples would be helpful :)

[Canfora]

When you say "I don't quite "get" it" do you mean that when you think about this you have doubts?

[jennie]

Yes, I guess I mean my mind doesn't get it! But otherwise, I see that my body moves on its own. My thoughts think on their own. Choices are made. But I cannot find a governing entity. Also when I woke up this morning, I realized that "I" didn't wake up. Waking up just happened.

I realize the "me" in my thoughts is entirely fiction and without any power to act. But it feels like there is something behind that, behind thoughts.
I can't penetrate the feeling of this subtle (although un-find-able!) sense of me that pervades everything.

So, an example,
as I am sitting here, writing this. The word "my" is floating all around. "My" computer. "My" room. "My" body. "My" thoughts. "My" searching for a "me". "My" looking at how choices are made. I get that the "my" is just an abstract label. I look to what it points to. I feel a lot of resistance now. A lot of confusion. So, I look at that. Is the confusion "mine"? No.

I feel kind of stuck.

[Canfora]

My thoughts think on their own.

Can you see a thought thinking? What can you see a thought do? For example, what can the thought "shoe" do?

But it feels like there is something behind that, behind thoughts.

If you can't see something behind thoughts - a thinker -, is it possible that they're just appearing and don't belong to a you? And that identification with their content isn't personal - it just seems to be? Look again, Jennie. What can you see causing the thinking right now?

I can't penetrate the feeling of this subtle (although un-find-able!) sense of me that pervades everything.

Could it be that this sense of me is just the sensation of being life or alive? Can you find what feels this sensation - the "me"? Do you expect this sense of me to disappear?

I feel kind of stuck.

You're doing fine! Can you see that this ^ is only a thought? If you compare this thought with what you can see going on, are you really experiencing "stuckness" or only thoughts about being stuck, confused and resisting? :)

[jennie]

Hi Sandra :)
Thanks for the questions.

Can you see a thought thinking? What can you see a thought do? For example, what can the thought "shoe" do?'

No, I cannot see a thought thinking. The thought "shoe" doesn't seem to do anything. Although, a mental image comes up of a shoe. Also, it seems I was able to think that thought "shoe" on command. But on closer inspection, this whole process is happening without "me" controlling it. It seems at the root of "myself" is just a continual applying the word "I" to what is happening (thinking, talking, moving, choosing, etc.) But I cannot find the "I".
I understand that if there was a real, separate self, it must be found somewhere other than the mind. For what is in the mind is abstraction only, not real.

If you can't see something behind thoughts - a thinker -, is it possible that they're just appearing and don't belong to a you? And that identification with their content isn't personal - it just seems to be? Look again, Jennie. What can you see causing the thinking right now?

The thinking is just happening. But, what is it that identifies with the thoughts? Because identification happens.

Nothing is causing the thinking. But isn't the thinking conditioned by my past? The thoughts are in English. What about the process of learning. ?

Could it be that this sense of me is just the sensation of being life or alive? Can you find what feels this sensation - the "me"? Do you expect this sense of me to disappear?

It is a sense of "being here". No I cannot find what feels this sensation.

I do expect the false sense of me to disappear!

If you compare this thought with what you can see going on, are you really experiencing "stuckness" or only thoughts about being stuck, confused and resisting? :)

Thoughts about being stuck!

I am still not sure where "I" am. I am here. I sense that. I am not in the past or future. I exist now. I am here. But, what am I? Not sure! Other than, I know I am here, now.

[Canfora]

Hi Jennie,

Also, it seems I was able to think that thought "shoe" on command.

On command or because of what I wrote? :)

But on closer inspection, this whole process is happening without "me" controlling it. It seems at the root of "myself" is just a continual applying the word "I" to what is happening (thinking, talking, moving, choosing, etc.) But I cannot find the "I".

Nice! Yes, thinking and labeling make the illusion seen real.

I understand that if there was a real, separate self, it must be found somewhere other than the mind. For what is in the mind is abstraction only, not real.

Yes.

The thinking is just happening. But, what is it that identifies with the thoughts? Because identification happens.

Yes, it does! And what happens when you see through identification - when you look to what is going on and see what is happening, instead of a story? In those moments of awareness, can you see that, like thought, identification is also just happening?

Nothing is causing the thinking. But isn't the thinking conditioned by my past? The thoughts are in English. What about the process of learning. ?

I'm not sure what you mean, Jennie. Can you please explain this ^ other way?

I do expect the false sense of me to disappear!

If this sense of self is something that is being experienced, why do you say that it is false?
Why do you expect that it will disappear?

I am still not sure where "I" am. I am here. I sense that. I am not in the past or future. I exist now. I am here. But, what am I? Not sure! Other than, I know I am here, now.

How do you know an "I" is here? Other than thoughts about this I, how is this I experienced?

What can you see when you look for this I?

[jennie]

Hi Sandra,

jennie wrote:Also, it seems I was able to think that thought "shoe" on command.
sandra wrote: On command or because of what I wrote? :)

But, what would have recognized what you wrote? What knows what a shoe is? What is able to read something and then think about it?

jennie wrote:The thinking is just happening. But, what is it that identifies with the thoughts? Because identification happens.
sandra wrote: Yes, it does! And what happens when you see through identification - when you look to what is going on and see what is happening, instead of a story? In those moments of awareness, can you see that, like thought, identification is also just happening?

How is identification happening? How does identification "know" to happen? So, I am trying to see how identification with thought happens. Thoughts just seem to come instantaneously with the word "I" attached. Like the thought "I wonder..." What is the "I" that is wondering? Nowhere to be found.

jennie wrote:Nothing is causing the thinking. But isn't the thinking conditioned by my past? The thoughts are in English. What about the process of learning. ?
sandra wrote: I'm not sure what you mean, Jennie. Can you please explain this ^ other way?

I just meant, it seems my thoughts are conditioned by my past and language, and thus they seem personal to me.

Also, learning just happens? It happens to no one in particular?

jennie wrote:I do expect the false sense of me to disappear!
sandra wrote: If this sense of self is something that is being experienced, why do you say that it is false?
Why do you expect that it will disappear?

hmmm.... the thoughts of self are being experienced and identified with. As they have my whole life! I expect that the identification will occur less as I see through it.

How do you know an "I" is here? Other than thoughts about this I, how is this I experienced?

The more I look for this I in this moment, the more it vaporizes. But I do experience a "backdrop" to all of this, a backdrop of a feeling of existence.

What can you see when you look for this I?

I feel like it is the I that is looking.

[Canfora]

Hi Jennie,

As a guide I'm not here to answer your questions, that wouldn't be helpful. Even if I did, I would only been sharing my point of view. And my point of view is only a bunch of thoughts about what I still believe to be true :)

You're giving a lot of power to thinking. Why is that? Can you see the difference between the content of thoughts and what is being experienced?

If thoughts are about the experience of eating chocolat, for example, is the experience of eating chocolat real? If a crave is felt, will you be satisfied only by thinking about eating what you're craving? Can thinking, imagining something, cause a real experience?

How do you know a thought is accurate, pointing to the true?

[jennie]

Hi Sandra,

Thanks for keeping me on track.

As a guide I'm not here to answer your questions, that wouldn't be helpful. Even if I did, I would only been sharing my point of view. And my point of view is only a bunch of thoughts about what I still believe to be true :)

I get this. Thanks! I think, sometimes, the questions are more for me, as I am trying to figure things out. But, I get it that this is not an intellectual exercise, it is a direct experience exercise!

You're giving a lot of power to thinking. Why is that? Can you see the difference between the content of thoughts and what is being experienced?

Yes I can see this difference, usually. Apart from thoughts, the experience itself is very simple. Whatever I am thinking about, whether it be future, past, myself, someone I love, etc. etc. when I stop thinking about it, it no longer exists in direct experience in this moment. I don't know what that means. (<-- that's just a thought)
When I listen and look in this moment, there are sounds, sights, body sensations. There are also thoughts. The sounds, sights, sensations are real, but the thoughts are not. I guess, I am having some difficulty seeing that thoughts are not real just because they are thoughts. Oh, actually, in my experience, it is that thoughts are real (because they happen), but the content of them is not.

If thoughts are about the experience of eating chocolat, for example, is the experience of eating chocolat real? If a crave is felt, will you be satisfied only by thinking about eating what you're craving? Can thinking, imagining something, cause a real experience?

No, thoughts cannot create a real experience, cannot satisfy a craving. The thought "water" is not water, does not have the substance of water in it, and I cannot drink the thought to quench my thirst.

How do you know a thought is accurate, pointing to the true?

If I look at a chair, and have a thought, "that is a chair" it seems that although the thought "chair" is empty of chair, the thought does point to something true.

Hope you have a good day! :)
Jennie

[Canfora]

Hi Jennie, thank you for your beautiful, clear post!

Let's do an exercise around the idea of separation. The goal is to see if - looking to experience - you can find something that proves the existence of separation or if separation can't be found and only seems to be true because of thinking, labeling, language.

There is seeing the computer right now. Draw a line in mid air, from seer to seeing to seen. Then tell me whether there are three distinct 'things' there.

Now, you'll need to look at actuality, not the construct we've been taught. What is ACTUALLY going on?

Seer ---- > Seeing ----> Seen

Is that how it works, or is that just language?

**********************************************************************************************

And if you do the exercise in the opposite direction, what do you discover?
What are you pointing to - a separate observer?

If I look at a chair, and have a thought, "that is a chair" it seems that although the thought "chair" is empty of chair, the thought does point to something true.

Right now, to what is the thought "I" pointing to?

[jennie]

Hi Sandra,

Let's do an exercise around the idea of separation. The goal is to see if - looking to experience - you can find something that proves the existence of separation or if separation can't be found and only seems to be true because of thinking, labeling, language.

There is seeing the computer right now. Draw a line in mid air, from seer to seeing to seen. Then tell me whether there are three distinct 'things' there.

The seeing is not separate from the seer. At first it seems that the seeing comes out of the seer. But on closer inspection, I cannot find the separation between seer and seeing. They are one thing.
What is seen (the computer) also seems to be separate at first. It appears to be a separate object, with physical boundaries (boundaries I can touch, for instance). But I experience that if seer and seeing are one, then what is seen is included in that.

And if you do the exercise in the opposite direction, what do you discover?
What are you pointing to - a separate observer?

I discover that the seer does not exist anywhere! Thus, not inside my body! I discover that it is impossible to separate seer from seeing from seen. They exist together simultaneously. This is quite the discovery, I think I need to let it sink in and register. I'll be staying with this, re-experiencing it.

jennie wrote:If I look at a chair, and have a thought, "that is a chair" it seems that although the thought "chair" is empty of chair, the thought does point to something true.
sandra wrote: Right now, to what is the thought "I" pointing to?

I see...
"I" don't look at a chair.
The thought "I" is pointing to nothing. The thought "I" cannot see. It has co-opted seeing as something it does, but this is just the label "I" being placed on an activity in which it has no part.

[Canfora]

Glad to know this experience resonates with you!

I'll be staying with this, re-experiencing it.

Tell me how it's going the looking at separation, please. What happens when you're walking in the street and looking to what is being experienced, for example? Can you see the flow, the absence of separation also?

Regarding the thought "I", is it possible that "I" is only experienced as thoughts?
If you look at I, is that a thought or a source of thoughts? Do thoughts come from an I? Where is the I when there are no thoughts about it?

[jennie]

Hi Sandra,
I have a felt sense of being part of a whole, being part of one movement. I feel less separation between seer-seen. I experience this more when I am consciously looking for my self (and not finding one). As for when I am walking down the street, or driving my car, for instance, I still feel a separation.
Oh also, I have been having instances where the persona of Jennie seems very inauthentic. The "me" that only exists in my mind seems more and more like a facade, like its not real. There is a growing since that what I say or do is not "me". It is just happening.

I am letting this sink in.

Regarding the thought "I", is it possible that "I" is only experienced as thoughts?
If you look at I, is that a thought or a source of thoughts? Do thoughts come from an I? Where is the I when there are no thoughts about it?

Yes, its possible that "I" is only experienced as thoughts! If I look at "I", it cannot be found, (so far). Thoughts don't come from an I. They just come. I don't know where they come from. When there are no thoughts about the I, it disappears (like, during deep sleep or very absorbing activities). However, the activity still continues.
(Although, I am wondering how the "I" so readily reappears, like first thing when I wake up in the morning, there is often memory of the past and a sense of I present. So, I am wondering if there is a storage bank of thoughts, somewhere, or something like that, or else how would they be retrieved so quickly. <-- Well, that is all just intellectual speculation. I have to stick to direct experience!)

Thanks for the pointing! I'm going to keep looking.
Warmly,
Jennie

[Canfora]

Hi Jennie,

When there are no thoughts about the I, it disappears

I am wondering how the "I" so readily reappears,

In your experience, can you find something that disappears and reappears - an I that is created by thoughts and activated or deactivated by thoughts? Do thoughts have the capacity to create a you?

If you can see that the I only exists as and in thoughts, is the I real? Can the I be experienced - or only a thought at a time about the I?

Have a look. What can you see? Any I around?

Thanks for the pointing! I'm going to keep looking.

Thank you for looking, Jennie.
Take care,
Sandra

[jennie]

Hi Sandra,
I need a little more time for answering the questions. As I was working to answer them last night, I kept being overcome by exhaustion and falling asleep.
So, I'll be back here tomorrow afternoon to answer them.
Thanks,
Jennie