Thread for Moondog

[moondog]

Hi Seagull,

A sensation is noticed by my conscious mind(eventually)it is labelled as "dry mouth" followed by the idea of getting a drink, but I cant pin down the exact moment I decide to reach out for my cup or get up to make myself one. Nearly every time I find that I am already beginning to do the thing that I decided to do as I am already doing it (my hand is reaching out to grab the cup as I become aware that I must have made a decision to drink just at that moment.

When you say 'a sensation is noticed by my conscious mind', do you mean 'you' simply become aware of, i.e. experience, the sensation?

Is the reason that you can't pin down the moment you decide to pick up your cup that there is no moment when 'you' decide to do that? If not, what is the reason?

You say 'nearly every time'. What happens the other times?

When you say, 'I decided' and 'I must have made a decision', what exactly do you mean? Have you experienced an 'I' that's deciding things? If so, please describe it and explain how it functions.

There is the thought that I am not able to find the moment of deciding because of my limited capacity of awareness accompanied by a judgement that I am not mindful enough.

Clearly, there is awareness; that's how, experientially, we know what we know. But what do you mean by 'my limited capacity of awareness'? Have you found a limited awareness in direct experience that is yours and separate from other awareness? What could that even mean?

I notice frustration that goes with this thought as though there is an "I" that is experiencing this difficultly. The unpleasant vedana that goes with this brings me back to my senses and I practice seeing the thought for the impersonal spontaneous arising that it is, instead of becoming caught up in the content

I'm really pleased that you're noticing and doing this. Really good.

The arguments and confusion have returned. I think about big life decisions, that I must have control over them. Then I argue from the other side that decisions aren’t really made by or not only by the ego but something deeper that is outside of my awareness.

Just don't get caught up in mental chatter. In this context, it's all bullshit. Keep it simple. Just to be clear about this - when 'you' raise your arm (or don't raise your arm, it doesn't matter which), do you actually experience anything, any entity, making that choice? Did anything arise that you could identify as the chooser? If so, what did it look like and how did it bring about the choice that was made? Or was there just a thought?

Remember, so far you've looked in various areas of experiencing for a separate self and have found no such entity. Here, in deciding and choosing, you are doing exactly the same thing.

This is good fun Seagull. Hope you're enjoying it too.

Pete x

[Seagull]

Hi Pete

When you say 'a sensation is noticed by my conscious mind', do you mean 'you' simply become aware of, i.e. experience, the sensation?

Yes, the way the experience is before it gets labelled.

Is the reason that you can't pin down the moment you decide to pick up your cup that there is no moment when 'you' decide to do that? If not, what is the reason?

You say 'nearly every time'. What happens the other times?

Thats what I have been trying to figure out. I can consciously tell meyself to do something. e.g I will raise my arm when i get to zero ...3,2,1and bingo! But the fast majority of the time I dont live in this deliberate way. I just end up doing stuff with my conscious mind piggy backing on the action I have performed or am performing at a latter point with a thought like "I am doing this because of that".

When you say, 'I decided' and 'I must have made a decision', what exactly do you mean? Have you experienced an 'I' that's deciding things? If so, please describe it and explain how it functions.

No I haven't experience an "I." I' m talking about an assuption that at some point a choice must have been made even if that choosing is an unconcious process.

Clearly, there is awareness; that's how, experientially, we know what we know. But what do you mean by 'my limited capacity of awareness'? Have you found a limited awareness in direct experience that is yours and separate from other awareness? What could that even mean?

I am aware of this process as thinking in the form of judgement. It is a good point you make and it feels particularly important for me to recognize these kind of thoughts as thoughts.

Just don't get caught up in mental chatter. In this context, it's all bullshit. Keep it simple. Just to be clear about this - when 'you' raise your arm (or don't raise your arm, it doesn't matter which), do you actually experience anything, any entity, making that choice? Did anything arise that you could identify as the chooser? If so, what did it look like and how did it bring about the choice that was made? Or was there just a thought?

Thanks for the direction here - for helping to come back to the simplicity of now. You are right, it is just thoughts, feelings and sensations stitched together in familiar patterns that seem like a seperate self through indentifying with them. I get this, but I don't think I have really seen it yet.

This is good fun Seagull. Hope you're enjoying it too.

Yes, I am enjoying this process. There is a definate richness that this iquiry has brought to my practice. It has awoken slumbering interest and curiousity - this is something I really value.

Sorry I am so late posting today - this is the first opportunity I have had

Warmly
Seagull

[moondog]

Hi Seagull,

Thats what I have been trying to figure out. I can consciously tell meyself to do something. e.g I will raise my arm when i get to zero ...3,2,1and bingo! But the fast majority of the time I dont live in this deliberate way. I just end up doing stuff with my conscious mind piggy backing on the action I have performed or am performing at a latter point with a thought like "I am doing this because of that"

No I haven't experience an "I." I' m talking about an assuption that at some point a choice must have been made even if that choosing is an unconcious process.

Ok, thanks for clearing all of that up Seagull. I'm always very keen to pick out and then remove any uncertainties or ambiguities during this looking process, for obvious reasons, and I can now see for sure that you are clearly saying that you can find no deciding or choosing agency, no self-entity present doing any such thing.

Thanks for the direction here - for helping to come back to the simplicity of now. You are right, it is just thoughts, feelings and sensations stitched together in familiar patterns that seem like a seperate self through indentifying with them. I get this, but I don't think I have really seen it yet.

This is so. But I wouldn't get hung up on whether you've really seen it yet or not. These are just expectations in the form of more thoughts, something to avoid getting tangled up in, as I stressed at the beginning of this thread. This process of looking is solely about, whenever you look, seeing for sure that there's just no separate self present anywhere, and never has been, together with knowing that any 'internal voice' that you may hear saying 'Yes, there really, really is a me' is just empty words. That's it. Now, this may come about with a 'pop', bells and whistles etc., or it may be a gradual realisation. Apparently, it's about 50:50, although I suspect it's often a subtle mixture of the two. Once seen, in a flash, gradually or something in between, one's energy is no longer required to shore up and cosset this imaginary separate self, and selfing thoughts lose their momentum and strength over time. This freeing up and falling away of beliefs takes place over time as habits weaken, and it varies very much depending on conditioning.

Anyway, I'm glad that you're enjoying what we're doing here together, and also that you've so far been able to see clearly that there's just no self present in seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching/feeling, thinking, doing, controlling, deciding or choosing. You haven't yet looked to see whether there's a self to be found in or as the body, so let's look at that.

Solely from experience:

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Pete x

[Seagull]

Thanks Pete,

I am going to read what you have written a couple more times and give it a bit more of a chance to sink in then latter on I plan on doing a bit of relaxed inquiry into my experience. i'll get back to you tomorrow with what i find.

Warmly Ed

[moondog]

Ok, Seagull.

Looking forward to your reply tomorrow.

Pete x

[Seagull]

Dear Pete

This is so. But I wouldn't get hung up on whether you've really seen it yet or not. These are just expectations in the form of more thoughts, something to avoid getting tangled up in, as I stressed at the beginning of this thread. This process of looking is solely about, whenever you look, seeing for sure that there's just no separate self present anywhere, and never has been, together with knowing that any 'internal voice' that you may hear saying 'Yes, there really, really is a me' is just empty words. That's it. Now, this may come about with a 'pop', bells and whistles etc., or it may be a gradual realisation. Apparently, it's about 50:50, although I suspect it's often a subtle mixture of the two. Once seen, in a flash, gradually or something in between, one's energy is no longer required to shore up and cosset this imaginary separate self, and selfing thoughts lose their momentum and strength over time. This freeing up and falling away of beliefs takes place over time as habits weaken, and it varies very much depending on conditioning.

Thanks for this response - It speaks directly to the doubt and worry that goes with the thoughts "I'm not doing this properly, Pete thinks I am really seeing things when I'm not." It gives me a bit more purchase to just recognize this as thinking.

I am noticing this kind of process as a pattern which is happening over and over again - getting caught up in what thinking is saying and then changing my perception by looking at the nature of the thought itself.

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

This one feels more straight forward to me, than some of the other processes you have been getting me to check out, but I wanted to look at it out carefully anyway.

Yes the body does expereince sensations and thoughts. The mind and body arn't seperate they are one interconnected process. embodied thinking feels very different from "head thinking" it is far more about felt senses and intuition (I was doing a bit of focusing this morning to double check this) and I trust the information that comes to me in this way a lot more than disembodied thinking.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Yes, my experience of the body is just an endless flow of senseations cresting and falling.

Thanks Pete

I hope you have a good weekend
Seagull

[moondog]

Hi Seagull,

Thanks for this response - It speaks directly to the doubt and worry that goes with the thoughts "I'm not doing this properly, Pete thinks I am really seeing things when I'm not." It gives me a bit more purchase to just recognize this as thinking.

Yes, just be aware that thinking is just that, thinking, and no more than that.

I am noticing this kind of process as a pattern which is happening over and over again - getting caught up in what thinking is saying and then changing my perception by looking at the nature of the thought itself.

That's just fine. It's just what happens; and it's far better than being lost in thought and not realising it as frequently, or at all.

Yes the body does experience sensations and thoughts. The mind and body aren't separate they are one interconnected process. embodied thinking feels very different from "head thinking" it is far more about felt senses and intuition (I was doing a bit of focusing this morning to double check this) and I trust the information that comes to me in this way a lot more than disembodied thinking.

Just remember that all you can really trust, and all that's needed throughout this process, is direct experience, which is just another way of saying experiencing. That's all.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Yes, my experience of the body is just an endless flow of senseations cresting and falling.

Splendid.

So Seagull, you've now looked and looked everywhere there is to look in experience and you haven't been able to find even a trace of a self-entity lurking anywhere.

Before we review and revisit any areas that might be needed, let's just look at all of this from a slightly different perspective:

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

Enjoy your weekend too.

Pete x

[Seagull]

Hi Pete

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

Nothing is lost, so I guess everything remains its just seen differently - You’re signing off puts it very poetically "Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment..."

What experiences?

Nothing experiences - experiences just happen

What thinks?

Thinking just happens by itself - easy for me to loose sight of this

What does?

Doing just happens as a response to thinking, feeling and sensing.

What is aware?

Awareness is just a particularly beautiful pattern that consciousness can take.

I am trying not to get too caught up in the thinking that I haven't really seen all this - That I should have some kind of special experience to go with this - but I do strongly feel the rightness of my answers and this intuition has increased greatly through the process you have been guiding me through.

Thanks Pete

Seagull

[moondog]

Hi Seagull,

Nothing is lost, so I guess everything remains its just seen differently - You’re signing off puts it very poetically "Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment..."

Nicely put. I like your answers :)

So now seems like the right time to review everything we've done so far, to see if you need to revisit any aspects to look in more depth for any evidence of a self-entity anywhere at all.

As always, in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

It might seem like a bit if a long list of questions but the answers can be brief unless, of course, there's something you want to examine some more. We've gone through all aspects pretty thoroughly so there may well not be anything, but basically, we just need to tidy up and identify any areas that need to be looked into a bit more deeply, or clarified.

Pete x

[Seagull]

Hi Pete

Ill have a look at these and get back to you tomorrow

Warmly
Seagull

[Seagull]

Hi Pete

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

no, there is just this really strong assumption - thoughts that fire off really quickly saying "this is me" but whenever I have looked I have never found any "one" there doing the experiencing.

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

The thought story that I call "me" seems to have some controll over my experience, some decision making capacity - like when I do something counter intuitive e.g deliberately stay with a painful experience rather than distract myself. This isnt representitive of my experience the mojority of the time. Most of the time I am just following the patterns of habit with thinking happening a little later trying to own what just happens.

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

This one feels like it is slowly becoming clearer. No one does the thinking - it just happens - though while I am lost in thought I can very can identify with the thought content very strongly.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Yes

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

No they just happen and then the ego tries to claim them as its own

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

no - but it seems like it

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

not when I am able to see thoughts for what they are. (which doesn't happen anywhere near often enough)

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

Yes - I understand and agree with No self and have some limited experience of not finding it, but I dont think I am really seeing no self.

Warmly
Seagull

[moondog]

Hi Seagull,

no, there is just this really strong assumption - thoughts that fire off really quickly saying "this is me" but whenever I have looked I have never found any "one" there doing the experiencing.

Excellent.

The thought story that I call "me" seems to have some controll over my experience, some decision making capacity - like when I do something counter intuitive e.g deliberately stay with a painful experience rather than distract myself. This isnt representitive of my experience the mojority of the time. Most of the time I am just following the patterns of habit with thinking happening a little later trying to own what just happens.

I don't think you've been specific about this before.

So, when you 'deliberately' stay with a painful experience, describe to me the actual process whereby 'the thought story called me' makes that decision to stay with the pain. What happens? How do the thoughts that comprise this story bring this about? In turn, how does the decision to make the decision come about, and what decides that, etc, etc?

Your subsequent statement viz. No one does the thinking - it just happens appears to be in stark contrast to all of this.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

not when I am able to see thoughts for what they are. (which doesn't happen anywhere near often enough)

So long as, whenever 'you' remember to, you are able to see thoughts for what they are, that's fine. It's the counterpoint to seeing that there's just no separate self whenever you look, as opposed to this being some sort of impossible permanent state where this prevails continuously.

Yes - I understand and agree with No self and have some limited experience of not finding it, but I dont think I am really seeing no self.

No, it's not a matter of understanding or agreeing, it's simply and solely about looking at experiencing and seeing that there's just no separate self to be found in experiencing, whilst accepting that whatever thinking says, it's merely conceptual and so can have no reference to what's actually happening right now, which is all there ever is. You are saying, I dont think I am really seeing no self. Please explain exactly what you mean by that. What is this really seeing that you say isn't happening? How do you actually know this?

Pete x

[Seagull]

So, when you 'deliberately' stay with a painful experience, describe to me the actual process whereby 'the thought story called me' makes that decision to stay with the pain. What happens? How do the thoughts that comprise this story bring this about? In turn, how does the decision to make the decision come about, and what decides that, etc, etc?

I thought you would pick me up on this one - as such maybe my decision to write this paragraph would be good to explore as an example.
As I wrote that paragraph I had the distinct sense that what I was writing was not a correct veiw. I felt unpleasant feelings around my imagined idea of how you would recieve what I had written - I was projecting dissapointment and displeasure. I guesed that your real response to what I was writing would be nothing like this. There existed a subtle sense of conflict between writing down what I knew the right answer would be and writing down how things appeared to me.

As I have already said this was quite subtle, but on this level I had a sense of two sides of myself in conflict - I could sense a familiarity about the pattern of each side - a sense of my history around this kind of process. Then I was aware of another patten, about how I choose in these situations weighing up what is in my best interest then I chose to answer honestly.

As I am writing this now I am aware of a similar process going on and It feels like I am choosing to write this.

I look forward to see how you are going to challenge me on this one.

Your subsequent statement viz. No one does the thinking - it just happens appears to be in stark contrast to all of this.

I agree with you and I can see how I am contradicting myself.

However, to me it feels like there arefamilar predictable patterns of thinking and I am able to exert my will power (to some degree)to make a choice between patterns. e.g when i quit smoking many years ago it felt like I was constantly having to choose a pattern of "not smoking" over"smoking"

No, it's not a matter of understanding or agreeing, it's simply and solely about looking at experiencing and seeing that there's just no separate self to be found in experiencing, whilst accepting that whatever thinking says, it's merely conceptual and so can have no reference to what's actually happening right now, which is all there ever is. You are saying, I dont think I am really seeing no self. Please explain exactly what you mean by that. What is this really seeing that you say isn't happening? How do you actually know this?

whenever I have looked for a seperate self I haven't found one - yet I dont feel convinced in my bones that there is no self. There is all this familairity about how I am in different contexts and situation to the extent where I can project myself into the future and reasonably predict how I will act in certain given situations.

You're right all this is happening on a cognitive level, maybe I am not accepting that thinking has no reference to whats happening right now, I'm not sure.

Thanks for your patience
Seagull

[moondog]

Hi Seagull,

I thought you would pick me up on this one - as such maybe my decision to write this paragraph would be good to expl ore as an example. As I wrote that paragraph I had the distinct sense that what I was writing was not a correct veiw. I felt unpleasant feelings around my imagined idea of how you would recieve what I had written - I was projecting dissapointment and displeasure. I guesed that your real response to what I was writing would be nothing like this. There existed a subtle sense of conflict between writing down what I knew the right answer would be and writing down how things appeared to me. As I have already said this was quite subtle, but on this level I had a sense of two sides of myself in conflict - I could sense a familiarity about the pattern of each side - a sense of my history around this kind of process. Then I was aware of another patten, about how I choose in these situations weighing up what is in my best interest then I chose to answer honestly.As I am writing this now I am aware of a similar process going on and It feels like I am choosing to write this. I look forward to see how you are going to challenge me on this one.

All that you say here is based on thought stories, not on what is seen in experiencing. The further you go into these stories, these thoughts and feelings, the further you move from seeing that the separate self is imaginary. Indeed, the separate self is the product of such thinking. You can either believe and therefore get lost in these stories and thoughts about 'you', a separate self or, whenever you become aware of that happening, realise that it's just another chain of thoughts, which you have seen are impersonal arisings, and return to now, the present, where there is just this, with just no self to be found.

So, this time entirely from experiencing, and not at all from thinking, please answer these questions:
'When you 'deliberately' stay with a painful experience, describe to me the actual process whereby 'the thought story called me' makes that decision to stay with the pain. What happens? How do the thoughts that comprise this story bring this about? In turn, how does the decision to make the decision come about, and what decides that, etc, etc?'

Your subsequent statement viz. No one does the thinking - it just happens appears to be in stark contrast to all of this.

I agree with you and I can see how I am contradicting myself. However, to me it feels like there are familiar predictable patterns of thinking and I am able to exert my will power (to some degree)to make a choice between patterns. e.g when i quit smoking many years ago it felt like I was constantly having to choose a pattern of "not smoking" over"smoking"

So, you accept that you're taking two opposing positions at once but then revert to believing what thoughts are telling you. Once again, only looking at 'your' experience will show you whether there's a separate self anywhere. (Looking can seem to suggest effort, but I really mean allow yourself simply to see [hear, taste, touch and smell] effortlessly, as when gazing without particular focus). As guide my job is really simply and only to point you in the right direction, to experiencing, and certainly not to thinking, speculating, imagining etc.

whenever I have looked for a seperate self I haven't found one - yet I dont feel convinced in my bones that there is no self. There is all this familairity about how I am in different contexts and situation to the extent where I can project myself into the future and reasonably predict how I will act in certain given situations.
You're right all this is happening on a cognitive level, maybe I am not accepting that thinking has no reference to whats happening right now, I'm not sure.

Again thinking, thinking, thinking (or feeling based on thinking) rather than looking, looking, looking. As I said in my previous post:

No, it's not a matter of understanding or agreeing, it's simply and solely about looking at experiencing and seeing that there's just no separate self to be found in experiencing, whilst accepting that whatever thinking says, it's merely conceptual and so can have no reference to what's actually happening right now, which is all there ever is. You are saying, 'I dont think I am really seeing no self'. Please explain exactly what you mean by that. What is this 'really seeing' that you say isn't happening? How do you actually know this? Please now answer these questions, entirely from direct experience.

You've said that you can see that thoughts just come about, with no thinker involved, but I suggest that you do these exercises again, and not from what you think, but directly from experience.

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?

I found it really helpful to do these when out just walking along in the countryside, or a park, with no particular destination or time constraints. I suggest you try that, just seeing thoughts arising and subsiding.

This is fundamental stuff Seagull, and I appreciate your commitment to seeing it clearly. I reckon that once you do, all will become a lot clearer.

Finally, here's a link to an article by Bodhipaksha that you might find helpful as background: http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practi ... e-basement




Pete x

[Seagull]

Thanks Pete for managing to meet me where I am.
The article really spoke to me.

I am really busy tomorow so I might not be able to post till late - but I am going to make time to do the exercises around thinking again.

Warmly
Seagull