I would appreciate a helping hand or a smack in the head!!

[Alexw]

Hi Tanya,
A happy New Year to you too!

I can see that the content is just stories - and I can see that Tanya is nothing more than a character that is wrapped inside a thought. Yet, it all feels like a belief and not 'being lived' as such.

Yes, well seen! Thought content is always only story and all individuals are simply a part of this story.
How does a belief feel like? Isn't this again only a thought saying that "Yes this is direct experience, but I think its not real - its only a belief!"
What is left when you don't believe in thought stories? The sound of a bird, the smell of coffee, the visual scene in front of you. A thought about having a sip of coffee... Is there a difference between the thought and the sound when you remove references to an imaginary "I/me"?

I feel like there are three parts in here - Thoughts, Observer and Awareness, but I don't know where awareness is. I can 'see' thoughts and can 'feel' a sense of being in the observer position, if that makes sense - after that I am confused and stuck.

Have a closer look. A thought arises. There is awareness/noticing of the thought. Then there is another thought, stating that it has just observed a thought, right? Is the observer any more than simply another thought saying something about a previous one - and another thought saying that there just was an observer, observing thought? Is the awareness/noticing of the thought at any time separate from the thought itself? Or is awareness/noticing = the thought? Can you find a difference to any other sense perception? Is awareness/noticing of sound separate from the sound or is awareness/noticing = sound?

I ask myself 'Where am I?' and a sensation, very deeply behind the eyes, is felt, but I directly look at it and it fades or becomes less intense, or even smaller.

Look at who is asking the question 'Where am I?' Is there a questioner? Or is the questioner equal to the question - both arising simultaneously?

[Tanya-D]

Hi Alex,

Great pointers! :) Thank you.

Is there a difference between the thought and the sound when you remove references to an imaginary "I/me"?

Wow, that nearly fried (my) brain :) I like when that happens as I feel it loosens the grip of the mind. . . So, it seems that thought, sound, sight, smell, taste, touch, sensation, and sense are all just happenings. No difference in that sense, it just becomes experienced, then the mind rushes to label the experience. I feel it is happening all at once, but what causes 'time' to happen is where the attention is placed - this then causes things to feel like they happen one after another. I have no idea how I know that, but it feels like the truth - that All happens and keeps happening, together.

Is the awareness/noticing of the thought at any time separate from the thought itself? Or is awareness/noticing = the thought? Can you find a difference to any other sense perception? Is awareness/noticing of sound separate from the sound or is awareness/noticing = sound?

I think I've answered this above, but I'll try and express it differently . . . seems to be happening all together, and depends in which experience/position is experienced. For example, noticing a thought or thought happening is just a perspective, isn't it? It is all happening simultaneously. Consciousness is another word for the same things. Consciousness is Awareness is Being is Life is Happening . . . All the same, different labels.

All expands and retracts, all together, like an ocean - no drop of water is separate, and none are in control. There is no characters except in the story of me, inside a thought which is happening all the time. So I guess that Awareness identifies with this to the point that is falls asleep inside the stories? Just musing here, Alex . . . but it helps to float with the movement this enquiry takes me. Even thought there is no me, so to speak.

Look at who is asking the question 'Where am I?' Is there a questioner? Or is the questioner equal to the question - both arising simultaneously?

Straight away is feels like the observer asks the question, so I sat and looked for this observer. There is nothing more than sensation there. A feeling of Beingness or Aliveness, maybe a better word to use. Just feels like attention. I looked for where the question comes from - Gah! Feels like Me is directing again. Grrr...

Where is Me? Behind the eyes. Ok, who/what is asking the question? Nothing is there! But how will I settle to learn that nothing is there, when I know nothing is there? There is nothing there to prove there is nothing there! It's gone in a knot!

Alex, can the mind get so switched on to this that is becomes intelligent enough to work this stuff out? I feel these insights come out of nowhere and I'm sincerely working them out and answering honestly, and for a moment I feel like something has given way - then doubt creeps in and I think I've just worked it out with my mind. I think this is the crux of my 'stuckness'. Yet saying that, I have a distinct knowing that I have become more awake/aware and moved on since working at this with you. There is stuff I just know, and don't know how I know. :)

Enjoy the day, Tanya

[Alexw]

:-) Great observations!

I like when that happens as I feel it loosens the grip of the mind. . . So, it seems that thought, sound, sight, smell, taste, touch, sensation, and sense are all just happenings. No difference in that sense, it just becomes experienced, then the mind rushes to label the experience.

Yes, it simply happens - it simply is experienced. Is there an experiencer? If not, what notices/knows of the experience?
Is there anything else but the experience - THIS here and now?

I feel it is happening all at once, but what causes 'time' to happen is where the attention is placed - this then causes things to feel like they happen one after another. I have no idea how I know that, but it feels like the truth - that All happens and keeps happening, together.

Yes, time is only ever a concept that exists in mind/thought, isn't it? If there is no thought about something that is in the past or in the future - where is time?

For example, noticing a thought or thought happening is just a perspective, isn't it?

Yes, just a perspective, a point of view. Are there any points of view that are not thought-generated?

who/what is asking the question? Nothing is there! But how will I settle to learn that nothing is there, when I know nothing is there? There is nothing there to prove there is nothing there! It's gone in a knot!

Yes, there is nothing but at the same time there is this moment that is full of life.
Where is this knot? Is there a knot if thought does not say so? Can THIS moment ever be in a knot? Does it have to be proven to be there or not there? Who needs a proof?

Alex, can the mind get so switched on to this that is becomes intelligent enough to work this stuff out?

Can sound or smell get so switched on that it "can work this stuff out"?
Look at: What is there to work out and WHO wants to work it out?

[Tanya-D]

Hi Alex,

I've been at this all day - and beginning to feel obsessed!

Is there an experiencer? If not, what notices/knows of the experience?
Is there anything else but the experience - THIS here and now?

Wow! No there is no 'doing' of experience - no experiencer - just experience experiencing itself, all together, at the same time. How the hell does driving so many cars, and flying so many planes and having over 7 billion bodies moving all at the same time, happen???!!!! I've exploded! :)

The experience is ALL there is - doing ALL there is to do, and experiencing ALL there is to experience! Speechless! Which in itself is very unusual for experience to experience, from this mouth! :)

Random thoughts and observations: It isn't me seeking to get through the gate. There is just a 'happening' to get through the gate . . .Think this is another belief though.

So, if Awareness IS Aware and this is ALL there is, then why is Awareness doing this 'looking' to wake up if it is already awake? What is trying to wake up? Is it that the mind has to have the eureka moment? So the perspective shifts? Not even sure these questions are relevant to direct experience at this stage.

Ah, there is fear here, Alex - fear that if I'm not in control, then Awareness might make my life worse/harder/lonelier/sadder etc. It is ridiculous, I know, but that fear came up and it was observed.

I've also noticed, today, that it is my mind that wants this liberation. It has become another thought with a story attached. I have just given in to 'working' at this and letting it all be, today. My mind races off searching, searching, searching, but All is still here, breathing, unfolding, relaxing. My mind is the one pushing and forcing the issue of awakening.

If there is no thought about something that is in the past or in the future - where is time?

I guess it is all part of 'right here-right now'. Nothing is separate, but to go further perhaps times is a mind concept to make sense of the simultaneous experiences of Awareness.

Are there any points of view that are not thought-generated?

No - I guess any POV is thought generated. There is just Being'ness before anything else; before thought, mind labelling, stories etc.

Where is this knot? Is there a knot if thought does not say so? Can THIS moment ever be in a knot? Does it have to be proven to be there or not there? Who needs a proof?

The knot is mind generated. A belief that this is hard because of all the books I've read by self appointed gurus that said it takes years of suffering, discipline, dedication and blah blah blah to achieve. It is also a pain in an imaginary ass!

Can sound or smell get so switched on that it "can work this stuff out"?

Sound and smell is the stuff, isn't it? It can't not be. There is nothing else. It doesn't have to work anything out, it is IT.

Look at: What is there to work out and WHO wants to work it out?

Immediately, there is nothing to work out, as it is All happening and flowing perfectly, but . . . thought then says that things have to be worked out to know how to wake up; things have to be understood. So the who to the question is thought wants to work it out.

Is there such an awakening, Alex, where the person doesnt even know they're awake because it so very subtle?
I'm realising that trust is a big issue here. I want to know for sure! Trusting that I am through, when I get through. Ha! Trust in thoughts! Well, there we go. That is just another belief.

I'm not sure I've answered your questions directly, today - but the questions have been interesting to work through.

Looking forward to hearing back :)

Tanya

[Alexw]

Wow! No there is no 'doing' of experience - no experiencer - just experience experiencing itself, all together, at the same time.

:-) Yes, beautiful realisation!

Ah, there is fear here, Alex - fear that if I'm not in control, then Awareness might make my life worse/harder/lonelier/sadder etc. It is ridiculous, I know, but that fear came up and it was observed.

It is completely normal for fear to arise. Fear is purely thought/mind based and unexpected change is one of the key fear factors, isn't it? We want everything to remain as it is, stay in control and run our lives as we always did... BUT: Was there EVER any control that a separate you has been exercising? Or was choice and control always just an afterthought? An afterthought that pops up so often that it is integrated as truth (or at least a belief)?
So... if your life has not turned "worse/harder/lonelier/sadder" by now, then why should it now? That there is no "I/me" in control does not result in no more decisions being made. Decision making and choosing will continue exactly as it did in the past, maybe with the little difference that you might have a little chuckle about certain decisions, knowing deep inside that its all not as serious as you once thought it might be - just let things happen as they do and make your decisions as you always did (maybe with the little difference that you rely more on your intuition and chains of thought that are discussing the pro and cons about certain decisions will get shorter)...

Sound and smell is the stuff, isn't it? It can't not be. There is nothing else. It doesn't have to work anything out, it is IT.

Yes, it is IT! Working something out, as we normally see it, is a mind game for some imaginary entity to get something - in this case more knowledge. This doesn't mean that working something out in a general way (not owned by an "I/me") is a bad thing - just like playing around is not a bad thing. It simply is what happens and how life unfolds.

Is there such an awakening, Alex, where the person doesnt even know they're awake because it so very subtle?
I'm realising that trust is a big issue here. I want to know for sure! Trusting that I am through, when I get through. Ha! Trust in thoughts! Well, there we go. That is just another belief.

Well, you have answered your own question, haven't you?
Tell me, where is this person that should know that she is awake? "I am awake" is just a thought, right? Waking up is a process, you are on a path. Understanding is done with the mind, realisation with the heart - it has to sink in. Give it some time and don't expect huge shifts in a day or two. An expectation itself is something that only an imaginary entity can have - its only a thought about how things should be, not about how they really are.
Who is waking up? And from what? What does "waking up" mean to you?

[Tanya-D]

Hi Alex,

Was there EVER any control that a separate you has been exercising? Or was choice and control always just an afterthought? An afterthought that pops up so often that it is integrated as truth (or at least a belief)?

I/me/self has no control or choice, no. It was shocking to the system when that sunk in as truth. I guess it kicked ego's ass :) Tanya having control would be like Bugs Bunny making a real life decision, I guess.

This character, Tanya, is so sticky though. Focus drifts and there it is again, and I'm off with another story! I guess, this too, becomes easier. I am finding all this understanding much easier. It feels like layers of illusion are falling away.

Tell me, where is this person that should know that she is awake? "I am awake" is just a thought, right?

Ha! Yes, absolutely a thought! The character, Tanya, needs to know, needs to feel in control and listens to stories, buried inside thoughts about the why she has to know.

Waking up is a process, you are on a path. Understanding is done with the mind, realisation with the heart - it has to sink in. Give it some time and don't expect huge shifts in a day or two. An expectation itself is something that only an imaginary entity can have - its only a thought about how things should be, not about how they really are.

Out of everything we have discussed, Alex, this has brought me a huge sense of strength and certainty. I wanted to say relief, but it is more than that, it has made me feel solid and strong.

Yes, the way you explain it, I'm having realisations every day and things are becoming clearer. I guess there were expectations buried in here about how it would be when becoming liberated. That there would be a distinct change, for example. One that would be obvious.

Who is waking up? And from what? What does "waking up" mean to you?

Ok, who is waking up . . .this has confused me - I want to say that there is nothing to wake up, but while I understand that, I want to ask why I am doing this direct experience and looking? If there nothing there to wake up, then I should already be awake? That is where my confusion comes in . . .but I suspect you will say the latter is thought based only. :) And if you do, that makes sense too.

Waking up means to me that I will be through the gate, liberated. A clear sense of focus, a deeper sense of Being, a more permanent sense of Now and deeper sense of Belonging and knowing that this is ALL that is and, ever will be. Freedom. I especially like that thoughts will become less sticky and easier to not get attached to. I imagine it would feel like realising I am home, and always have been. I also imagine that just the mind alone, becoming quieter will be like heaven!

The way I see it up to now is, while Tanya is still very heavily conditioned and wrapped around the mind, thought and inside stories, I'm able to see a small gap between her and . . .I don't know how to describe it, but it feels vast and infinite . . . I'm also able to notice the act of experience experiencing a nanosecond before a label get slapped on it. I'm aware of a conscious energy that is ALL there is, and that conscious energy is IT. The I/me is merely a shadow with delusions of grandeur :) However, I'm wondering if the 'sense' of self is the stuff of the IT and I've just confused it with I/me? It is merely a presence when looked at - a sensation.

Catch you soon, Alex :)

Tanya

[Tanya-D]

Think I've just had a moment, Alex! :)

It's been a rough day, woke up so, so tired, like I'd been unplugged, and felt quite low and tearful. I just sat with it, not taking it personally, staring into space.

Then a moment happened. It was like, 'Oooooooh, now I get it!' Its just here. Nothing else outside of this moment is real.' I looked around and nothing had changed, just a deeper understanding of experience only being in the now, in this moment. And everything about it was the only thing that was real. The wall, the room, the body, and hand which I looked at etc . . .then the bloody thoughts came crashing back in, all excited, ready to entertain me with stories about what that was all about! I had to laugh. They're like over-eager children, aren't they? :) Perhaps that was a glimpse?

During that moment, I didn't exactly feel connected to everything, just super aware of THIS , IT, NOW, HERE . . . hope that makes sense.

Tanya

[Alexw]

I like your comparison of thoughts with "over-eager children". Children are beautiful, so are thoughts. Children can become pretty wild if left unattended - so do thoughts...

During that moment, I didn't exactly feel connected to everything, just super aware of THIS , IT, NOW, HERE

"I did/didn't feel connected to everything" is simply a story. Something thought comes up with to conceptualise an experience - and while making sense of it, it automatically includes this imaginary entity "I/me" that has been the one that became connected (or was not connected)...
BUT: What is it that would become connected and one with everything? And what is it that seems to be disconnected?
If there is no thought about a "me" experiencing something, if there is only experience, can there be anything or anyone that is disconnected/separate from THIS?

I guess there were expectations buried in here about how it would be when becoming liberated. That there would be a distinct change, for example. One that would be obvious.

Look at every expectation that comes up and that bothers you. Is it only a thought-story or can it be verified in direct experience? What is wrong with this moment as it is?

If there is nothing there to wake up, then I should already be awake? That is where my confusion comes in . .

If there is "nothing there to wake up", then how could this nothing be awake or not awake? What is this "nothing"? Is there nothing just because this "you" has been identified as a thought concept? Or is the nothing equal to everything? No separate "you" that could be different to THIS? Can this experience be awake or not awake?

[Tanya-D]

Hi Alex,

I couldn't sleep, so . . .

BUT: What is it that would become connected and one with everything? And what is it that seems to be disconnected?
If there is no thought about a "me" experiencing something, if there is only experience, can there be anything or anyone that is disconnected/separate from THIS?

This is where reading 'awakening' books, in the past, get in the way! I've adopted their concepts of what it is supposed to be like without realising it! Yes, it is only thought concepts telling me it isn't the way 'I expected', therefore it hasn't happened, and then doubt happens. Thoughts are causing the belief of being disconnected.

Nothing can 'become' connected if ALL is already whole and perfect, I guess. It would be kind of like saying that the air has become disconnected. There is no beginning or end for anything to be separate or separated. IT already is aware! Ah, ok - the bit that isn't aware is the story of being separate, isn't it?

Oh I see! So, the story of Me is what has the character, Tanya, as separate from IT. The belief that she has a mind and others have minds are just more stories that labels things/concepts to 'prove' the story is accurate. or perhaps to ease user-friendliness :) and suck us into a tripped out, lame illusion that has most of us suffering!?

Jeez, if the fantasy of the self/me/I is just a character in a thought-story, then I could have been anyone! I/me/self is literally a character that has been projected into experience, and so much so it has obscured direct experiencing of life! The illusion has gotten so entrenched to the point of being hypnotised into the story of Me, and believing it is life; and then having the audacity to doubt life when it does show up!!!!? I'm becoming somewhat relieved to know that the world is full of characters that really are NOT in charge of anything at all and surprised that these characters made it to the illusion of the 21st century!

Look at every expectation that comes up and that bothers you. Is it only a thought-story or can it be verified in direct experience? What is wrong with this moment as it is?

I seem to be doing well at observing thoughts, beliefs, and questioning assumptions. I've also noticed that when observed, the inner voice becomes silent or quieter, anyway.

What is wrong with this moment? Frustration and doubt is what's wrong with it! But I am now aware that that is also coming from thought/expectations of how it is meant to be and 'Am I nearly there yet?!' crap. I have more expectations of how this is meant to be than I realised! I will look at this directly.

If there is "nothing there to wake up", then how could this nothing be awake or not awake? What is this "nothing"? Is there nothing just because this "you" has been identified as a thought concept? Or is the nothing equal to everything? No separate "you" that could be different to THIS? Can this experience be awake or not awake?

Awareness/Experience is already awake, and if there is no I/me/self, then being awake should be observable, is what I was trying to say. However, I am realising that it already is, but thought-stories are what is being focused on, and not reality directly being experienced. So, right now, experience is being experienced through the filter of thought-concepts-stories. Like looking at a movie of a deserted beach as opposed to being ON that very beach. The thoughts/me/I are like a gauze that stops direct experience. I 'know' what IT is. Alex . . . I just can't stay in IT. Focus gets lost or pulled into a story. Wow, this is really hard to describe! Lost in the mind again! I'm literally lost in the movie of me! This is trippy.

I admire your ability in understanding my rants and half baked descriptions, thus far :) Thanks, Alex.

Tanya

[Alexw]

This is where reading 'awakening' books, in the past, get in the way! I've adopted their concepts of what it is supposed to be like without realising it!

Yes, I guess, this is what happens to many seekers... the seeking becomes an ego-game and gets in the way of seeing how simple it really is. Longtime seekers don't want to accept simple reality for what it is - there has to be more - something really mystical and spiritually "advanced", otherwise it can't be the real thing, can it?

I am realising that it already is, but thought-stories are what is being focused on, and not reality directly being experienced. So, right now, experience is being experienced through the filter of thought-concepts-stories. Like looking at a movie of a deserted beach as opposed to being ON that very beach. The thoughts/me/I are like a gauze that stops direct experience. I 'know' what IT is. Alex . . . I just can't stay in IT. Focus gets lost or pulled into a story. Wow, this is really hard to describe! Lost in the mind again! I'm literally lost in the movie of me! This is trippy.

Yes, very true, lost in the movie of me :-)

Anyway, what we do in this LU forum is guide people to see that this "I/me" is only a thought based concept - no real, separate entity. Do you feel you have seen this clearly or are there any doubts you would like to address?

Staying "in IT" is something that will gradually get easier as you focus on being consciously present as much as possible.
This is not something that will change from lets say 10% present to 100% present in a matter of days or weeks... it might take a while, but what is time anyway :-)

[Tanya-D]

Hi Alex,

Can we still carry on for a bit longer please? If I have seen it, it is very new and mind is doubting it and causing horrid confusion and frustration. I feel like I have seen glimpses of reality, but not accepting there is no me. Still confusion here.

Tanya

[Tanya-D]

Like I said, this is really hard to write about . . . I mean 1/Me/sel hasn't stopped projecting into everything.

I think I get what the truth is; It is Life without the projections of mind, thought stories and self. So as an example, to help me solidify this, Awareness is Experience, is Life, Is Truth, is Presence, is Consciousness . . . and to be awake is to live life directly? The difference being, thinking about driving a car, as opposed to being in the car and driving? Have I got that right?

[Tanya-D]

And . . .if I have got this right, then I woke up on my birthday! Now, that is cool :)

[Tanya-D]

Do you feel you have seen this clearly or are there any doubts you would like to address?

No, I don't think I've experienced No-me yet - I seem to have done it back to front and seen reality for what it is, first. Reality has become a knowing now, of what is really is . . .but No self is still an idea/thought . . not not yet known directly.

Think that is what I was trying to say earlier :)

[Alexw]

Hi Tanya, wishing you a Happy Birthday!
...and, yes, sure, I am happy to keep discussing this with you.

No, I don't think I've experienced No-me yet - I seem to have done it back to front and seen reality for what it is, first. Reality has become a knowing now, of what is really is . . .but No self is still an idea/thought . . not not yet known directly.

Can you experience something that does not exist? Or rather, only exists as a thought? Isn't experiencing "no self" the same as experiencing this moment without self referential thought? Without putting an I/me into the equation?
Sure there are many levels of this experience. From the fleeting moment of being fully immersed in watching a drop of water fall to the complete annihilation of any I/me/self thoughts for hours/days/or... the issue is, as long as you are chasing this experience it will only hold you back. Let it happen if it happens - and don't expect things to happen a certain way.

I think I get what the truth is; It is Life without the projections of mind, thought stories and self. So as an example, to help me solidify this, Awareness is Experience, is Life, Is Truth, is Presence, is Consciousness . . . and to be awake is to live life directly? The difference being, thinking about driving a car, as opposed to being in the car and driving? Have I got that right?

Yes, sure "awareness, experience, life, presence, consciousness" are all just labels for one and the same thing. They point to this moment, now. To be awake is to have seen through the illusion of a separate self completely and integrate this realisation into your life. This can be done in many different ways. Being awake does not mean that there will be no more self referential thoughts or that you will have no more feelings of sadness, suffering or anger. The difference is that they will have less power over you as they are seen to have no where to stick. The more this is integrated the more life flows as obstructions become smaller and smaller.