In here Sam...

[vinceschubert]

Sam, can you see thoughts arising ?

[loftygoal]

No

[loftygoal]

I only get caught up in them. I am not yet at a stage where my mind can witness them

[loftygoal]

I assume you are trying to find out a point using which you can help me see through my illusion

Let me mention a couple of things that are close to me and probably hold the keys.

"What others might think". This thought/fear/idea has been central to most of what I do. I always tried to maintain a good image in the eyes of society/relatives/friends, skipped things that I liked but the society may not approve of. I feel uncomfortable in a group/party setting. Even when I do something in public or open I was always aware of the fact that others might be seeing me. For example I will never jump in joy in a mall if I hear some good news. I used to think I am very sane and have very good "common sense" but of late I am realizing there is nothing called "common sense".

The second thing with me is what I used to call "sensitiveness". Aggressive people easily get me. I dont think I have the talkative skills to defend myself and when people get aggressive with me my emotions get triggered easily and I carry the hurt for sometime.

Probably digging deep into these will open the door for me

[vinceschubert]

me see through my illusion

How can 'you' (the self) see through itself (the illusion) ?

All the other stuff is part of a story of Sam.
Can you see that ?

[loftygoal]

Yeah I understand that :)

The self which is itself a product of illusion cannot see the illusion ending. Once the illusion is removed there is no self anymore to see the illusion end

[vinceschubert]

All the other stuff is part of a story of Sam.
Can you see that ?

[loftygoal]

yeah it is all a story about the illusory "I"

The problem though is that due to believing these stories painful emotions arise in the body. But hey who feels the pain? It is again "I". For the body it just another emotion.

There then seems no problem other than this "I" which is a problem only to itself.

[vinceschubert]

For the body it just another emotion.

Yes, emotions are the bodily response to thought.

There then seems no problem other than this "I" which is a problem only to itself.

You got it! You nailed it in one.
There is no problem either, 'cos while the problem is a problem for the I, what happens when there is No I ?

The problem only exists while the I exists and we know that it doesn't. It is a hallucination, an illusion, a delusion.
Isn't it ?

[loftygoal]

The problem only exists while the I exists and we know that it doesn't. It is a hallucination, an illusion, a delusion.
Isn't it ?

Who knows it doesn't exist? I can only know that it exists. I can never know it does not exist. Does that put it correctly?

[vinceschubert]

Who knows it doesn't exist?

You tell me, WHO knows ?

I can only know that it exists.

The I can only know that the I exists - is that what you are saying ?

I can never know it does not exist.

If the I only exists as a thought phantom in a story, How can the I know or not know anything.
It doesn't exist.

[loftygoal]

The I can only know that the I exists - is that what you are saying ?

What I meant was this. The illusory "I" can get tricked into thinking that it exists. Only it can know (or mistakenly think) that it exists. The "I" can never know it does not exist. hmm..actually it can get tricked into thinking that it doesnt exist as well. So in both cases it doesnt really know. It can at best only get caught in another thought that says it exists or doesnt exist. But wait, how can a thought (the "I" thought) get caught up in another thought. I think there is something else that is getting caught up in all these thoughts (including the "I" thought).

You tell me, WHO knows ?

Awareness, the one prior to thought, space between thoughts, the space in which thoughts happen, the space in which everything happens, the unborn, the silent core, the one thats left after all stories are peeled off

That's just intellectual though, not experential

[vinceschubert]

That's just intellectual though, not experential

good seeing. (it looks like verbatim from some Advaita speak)

Sam can you see that the content of the thought is intellectual, but that the actual thought itself is an experience?

[loftygoal]

Sam can you see that the content of the thought is intellectual, but that the actual thought itself is an experience?

Yes thoughts are experienced but for me it is not experiential again. It is hard for me to catch a thought when it is rising or see it rising or falling away. The space between thoughts is not yet so profound for me. For me it is mostly thoughts that just go about in mind. The best thing happens in silence after meditation (I do the same AYP Meditation that Carson Zi does) where I can see images of places popping up but dont recognize a thought till it I get caught up in it.

[vinceschubert]

Carson lives from a different perspective to you, so will be getting totally different experiencing from it.
i don't know that particular meditation but am a long time meditator (vipassana mostly) so can 'get' some of what you say about the silence after a sit.
Sam, you are locked in your head.
Even meditation you are approaching as a head exercise.
The question about thought being an experience and it's content being intellectual - if seen, was an attempt to get you to see where thought starts/stops and how it fits into experiencing.
How often do you meditate ?