Thread for SD

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini!

an assumption that the 'self' is having the experience or is connected to the awareness, or is awareness

Is the self awareness? Is awareness 'self' / 'me' - a separate entity? Look directly, answer from DE, I'm not interested in speculation.

looking directly and then seeing this is only an idea located in thought

Indeed!

Therefore it can't be true

'Therefore' means a reasoned argument. This inquiry isn't based on argument - reasonable or otherwise.

It isn't clear where these thoughts/ideas arise from and pass away to

You're standing outside of DE and making a mental assessment. Allow yourself to fully drop into DE, answer only from what is directly seen / known / experienced.

The 5 body senses don't seem to be made to arise

...more standing outside of DE and making a mental assessment.

in unexamined moments

Ditto.

This idea/thought/assumption is persistent

Ditto.

when attention is turned in that direction there is nothing substantial there

Nope!

when looked at directly it means nothing, is just the experience of thinking/having an idea

Indeed!

I think it would help to investigate bodily senses more directly. Let's proceed with sound. Drop right into the directly experienced sensations. Don't stand on the outside, as if were, making commentary. There may be mental commentary - no problem, just don't identify with it...see it simply for what it is..a bunch of passing thoughts.

Sit quietly and close your eyes. Tune into sound: birds or traffic outside; an appliance humming...whatever. Drop right into the direct sensations.

Where is the sound? Is it happening in your ear/s? Or 'wherever the source of the sound is located'? Or neither? Does the direct sensation of sound actually include location? Or is that added on mentally?

Notice what happens when you try to locate the source of the sound. Is the location there in the sensation of hearing, or is it to some extent 'added in' - perhaps by a mental image 'helping' to locate the source of the sound in space? Or by reference to memory - an assumption in thought that you already know what this is?

Look. DE only. Report back.

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,

"Is the 'self ' awareness? Is awareness 'self'/'me'?"..........Awareness is awareness, it isn't 'me' or 'myself' or 'mine'.

"Where is the sound?"......There is just sound. Everything else is added by the mind i.e. "I am hearing through my ears.....the computer is making the sound.....it is coming from where the computer is in front of me". In DE there is just the experience of the sound.

S'dh x.

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini,

:-) all good!

Before doing the following, spend a few minutes dropping right in to the direct experience of sound, whatever is there.

What do you experience directly about your body? Do you experience an actual object? Look closely. Are there simply sensations and feelings that are always changing? (And then thought commentary claims they refer to an object..?)

Report back.

Now, let's take a closer look at thought...

Sit quietly and pay close attention to thoughts for 10 minutes. Notice that they seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause. Can you find any cause or reason for their appearance? Or are they a total surprise? Are 'you' involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts?

Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Is this possible? Is a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can 'you' claim to be in control of the thinking process - or choices or impulses that arise? (Do you ever have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them? If 'you' had any control over thoughts, wouldn't the choice be not to think such thoughts all?)

Observe a thought. Did 'you' do anything in order to make that thought appear? When a thought appears, is there an option to avoid that thought?

Report back.

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,

"What do you experience directly about your body?".........DE is just of sensations, changing sense experience and sensations-everything else is mind identifying, naming, interpreting, reacting to, experience of sensation. No direct experience of an actual shape, or where (in space and time) body is situated-all that is added on by mind.

"Sit quietly and pay close attention to thought for 10 minutes".........Was sitting in meditation posture and mind usually a bit 'quieter' at such times. Even so, thoughts arising at random intervals-the actual arising of thought seems to have no cause, tho content can be linked to experience or events i.e. guitar riff from Jolene kept appearing and disappearing-partner is learning this song currently so is a sound which is being experienced a lot at the moment. 'I' don't feel responsible for appearance of thoughts even if content seems explainable-they just come and go.

"Observe thought closely"........It does not seem possible to predict when or what next thought will be. It is only known as it actually appears. Did try consciously thinking about something but it wasn't possible to predict what mind's response would be i.e. said to 'myself' "think about icecream"-thoughts did seem to arise as a result or response, but the images that arose in thought were not predictable at all. 'I' don't feel in control of thinking process or choices or impulses that arise. Actions and behaviour are a different matter, don't know where that fits in terms of this enquiry i.e.don't know where spiritual practice fits here, as over the years have experienced a lessening of occurrance of thoughts/ thinking generally-especially unpleasant/negative content of thoughts and this has affected behaviour.

"Observe a thought"........nothing was done to make that thought appear. It occurred in awareness and could not be avoided, tho seemed possible for awareness to be more with physical sensations/other sense experience and this had the effect that experience of thought/thinking came and went more quickly than if content of thought had been paid attention to. It still appeared without anything being 'done', tho-'I' can't avoid thoughts actually happening.

S'dh x.

[Hare]

Hi again!

DE is just of sensations, changing sense experience and sensations-everything else is mind identifying, naming, interpreting, reacting to, experience of sensation.

This again sounds like a commentary, standing outside of experience...conceptualising.

No direct experience of an actual shape, or where (in space and time) body is situated

Nope! :-)

sitting in meditation posture and mind usually a bit 'quieter' at such times

Commentary in thought, not direct experience.

the images that arose in thought were not predictable at all

So is there a 'me' controlling or directing thought, or making it happen in any way? (No theory! No ready 'right answer'! Really look!)

Actions and behaviour are a different matter, don't know where that fits in terms of this enquiry i.e.don't know where spiritual practice fits here, as over the years have experienced a lessening of occurrance of thoughts/ thinking generally-especially unpleasant/negative content of thoughts and this has affected behaviour.

Agreed, this is not within the very specific and focused sphere of this inquiry...but it may help, in a way that supports the inquiry, to reflect upon how spiritual practice occurs, or has any effect, without a self to 'do' it. (Clue: conditioned arising? Incidentally 'right view', including not holding to a belief in a fixed, separate self - is seen to be a key condition for the arising of skillful behaviour and insight).

OK let's look at actions and behaviour in direct experience, not in any speculative way.

Directly observe actions and behaviour in different situations throughout the day. Just stick simply to what can be directly observed. This can include things like:

How getting out of bed happens.
Choosing what to wear, eat or drink.
Leaving the house and walking or driving somewhere.
Making a phone call, sending an email etc.
Other/s as appropriate.

How does action happen? Is there a 'me' making any of it happen? Is there a self-entity - Sraddhadharini /Bernadette - directing the show?

Report back. Stick to what is immediately observable. No need to draw conclusions.

Can 'you' do anything other than what happens? Try. Try to do something other than what happens! See what it brings up. Is there a believe that you are controlling things? Even a pretending to be in control? So try again and again to do something other than what occurs and watch what arises.

Report back.

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare, this will be quite a quite a quick response, sorry, as full day but didn't want to miss posting.

"Is there a 'me' directing and controlling thought?.......No separate me to be found, thoughts do just happen.

How does anything happen without a 'self' to do it? Happening happens and what happens affects what happens (conditioned arising?)-this prob a construct but seems best way to describe situations
For example:
"Directly observe actions and behaviour throughout the day"........All that could be experienced directly was that things were happening-especially when attention was with mental events, more practical things just happened without any sense of 'anyone' being in control. No director of the show called Sraddhadharani/Bernadette, but it's happening anyway.

What is happening is happening, not possible to do anything else other than what is happening. No belief of control or pretending to be in control, tho not as anarchic/chaotic as that might sound. Actually have been feeling pretty amazed that life flows on as it does-teeth get cleaned, dogs get fed, friends communicated with etc when it really isn't clear how all this hangs together.

S'dh x.

[Hare]

Hi!

Happening happens

Yup

what happens affects what happens (conditioned arising?)-this prob a construct but seems best way to describe situations

Well spotted. This does indeed look like a construct - an attempt by mind to get a grip; to explain experience. Is it possible to simply let experience be? Not to know, understand, or explain? Even if it doesn't immediately 'make sense'? Jumping in with ready explanations will block simply looking (without preconceptions or ready explanations) - and real seeing.

All that could be experienced directly was that things were happening

Yup!

especially when attention was with mental events

So did something different happen when attention wasn't with mental events? (This sounds like the 'standing outside experience' / commentary thing!?)

more practical things just happened without any sense of 'anyone' being in control.

So did other, non-practical things happen differently to this, as in, with someone in control?

No director of the show called Sraddhadharani/Bernadette, but it's happening anyway

Nope!

What is happening is happening, not possible to do anything else other than what is happening. No belief of control or pretending to be in control, tho not as anarchic/chaotic as that might sound. Actually have been feeling pretty amazed that life flows on as it does-teeth get cleaned, dogs get fed, friends communicated with etc when it really isn't clear how all this hangs together.

Indeed. None of this needs a separate self to 'do' it. All this has been happening very nicely without one all along! Amazement is a good sign: looking afresh.

Try this (keeping completely experiential..don't try to explain, catagorise etc etc.. Just say what is experienced as closely as possible):

When you point anywhere in the world you point at appearances. You appear to be distant from what you are looking at and you see things, you see objects. Observe this: direct your attention at things by pointing at them.

For example, I can see the shapes and colours of this room…

of my foot...

...of my knee

of my chest...

In all these instances attention is directed outwards, at objects.

Now point where others see your face.

What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place (you think?) you are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

Looking in to the place where others see your face, do you find colour or shape here?

What do you find?

Then..Take it further: Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like.

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,

"Is it possible to simply let experience be?...Even if it doesn't immediately make sense?"........Mostly. Most of my life things/experiences haven't really made sense and the most helpful thing I have learned is just to let it all be-much anxiety and fear arose from trying to understand and find explanations. Beautiful to rest with mystery and not knowing, whatever helps that happen is a gift. This is helping.

"Did something different happen when attention wasn't with mental events?"........Not different, but things still happened despite awareness being directed towards mental events-no connection between mental event and what was happening so mental event/thought not controlling what was happening, that happened by itsself. And mental events were just mental events-arising and passing, not being controlled. This does sound like commentary, but finding it increasingly tricky to describe experience. Experience is experience and descriptions/observations of it hard to articulate in language, sorry.

"Did other, non-practical things happen differently to this.......with someone in control?"........See above.

Did first bit of exercise, pointing around the room- sense of awareness 'going out' to objects and mind quite faintly chipping in with identification-'red cushion', 'dog', 'Buddha', 'yellow wall' , 'knee', etc.

"Now point to where others see your face.......what do you see?.....What do you find?"....... Visual experience of finger pointing back at direction of face, backdrop of room, frame of glasses. (Took glasses off). Only experience otherwise was of physical sensation and mind situating this in what it identifies as area of face. No sense of inside/outside, where 'face' stops and everything else begins. No colour or shape, tho if cast eyes down visual experience of something which mind identifies as 'nose'. When just sitting pointing at face-hard to describe this-sense of awareness 'reversing', coming in instead of going out. The longer I sit like this, the quieter experience becomes, just sense experience, tho not vivid. Atmosphere of emptiness and calm, tho slight emotional tone of tearfulness.

"Point with one index finger etc.........Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like"..........Actually feels like strong stuff happening, sense experience more vivid, strong physical sensation-could be labelled 'heart palpitating','heat in body', strong awareness of sensations of breathing. Mind has nothing to say about anything, tho emotional experience of what could be named confusion-actually, now eyes flicking between outward and inward pointing fingers, seems difficult to just rest gaze on both. Strong physical sensation in area which could be identified as solar plexus-mind labels as anxiety/fear. Gaze stabilised but can't describe any more, just needing to sit steady and breathe deep.

S'dh x.

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini,

Some nice investigating happening here.

Beautiful to rest with mystery and not knowing, whatever helps that happen is a gift.

:-)

And mental events were just mental events-arising and passing

Look in DE. Is it actually possible to see mental events arising and passing? Look and describe the actual experience as closely as possible.

Look carefully - can you see where thoughts arise? Can a point of origin be seen, in reality?

Experience is experience and descriptions/observations of it hard to articulate in language

Yes, very true! We just try as best we can..

Atmosphere of emptiness and calm

:-)

slight emotional tone of tearfulness

Some letting go happening?

Mind has nothing to say about anything

:-)

Strong physical sensation in area which could be identified as solar plexus-mind labels as anxiety/fear

Fear can arise in this process - a fear that something is going to be lost. This is a delusion. Seeing through the illusion of self-view, we see that there isn't a separate self-entity - and the big joke is that there never was all along! There is nothing that can be lost.

It may be useful at this stage to investigate the story fear is telling. What is the worst thing that could happen? Does whatever comes up actually ring true? (Indeed, what even if it did come true..?) Is it possible to see the thought-story that goes with that sensation in the solar-plexus for what it is..a story..? Something to be curious about, but with which there is no need to identify?

Is there really an 'inner' and 'outer' or is this just an idea? Can a dividing line be found?

Is there a seen and a seer? Are they two separate things? What is true?

Is anything separate from experience itself? (I.e...hearing, touch, feeling, pain, seeing, sensing). Is there experience and someone experiencing as an experiencer - or is experience seamless; unified? What's truer?

Is there, anywhere, in any experience, ever, a 'me', 'I' or 'myself' that can be separated out in any way? Yes? Or no?

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Morning Hare.

"Look in DE-is it possible to see mental events arising and passing?"..........Ok, this IS tricky to describe! Thinking seems to be elusive when being examined, tho guitar riff from Jolene fairly persistent. (Thanks Joe!) Experience is that mental events don't arise from anywhere or go anywhere discernible, not possible to actually 'see' them arising or passing, just noticing presence and absence. What is doing the noticing is the constant experience-thoughts/mental events are like other experience being noticed i.e. visual, aural experience. Mind then engages, interprets, reacts to, generally gets involved, even if only very subtly. Hardest thing to describe is that thoughts do not feel different to or separate from the noticing/awareness-not exactly the same as when there is no thinking happening, but not exactly different either.

"Look carefully".......No point of origin to be found, just awareness of presence or absence of mental events.

"Investigate the story fear is telling"..........No narrative or story to be found, just strong sensation which mind calls fear/anxiety. Sense of tenderness towards this.

"Is there really an inner or an outer?.......Can a dividing line be found?".........No dividing line. Not possible to say this is where 'I' stop and 'everything else' starts. 'inside' and 'outside' don't seem to make sense, just experience of senses, mental events, feeling of aliveness.

"Is there a seen and a seer?"........Just seeing happening. Some mental fabrication happening here along the lines of 'ME!!!!!! I'M looking at THAT!!!!!!' Turning awareness there, nothing substantial, just a mental event happening. Again, feeling of tenderness.

"Is anything separate from experience itsself?".........Nothing separate, just experience. Again,strong mental pull towards wanting to say 'ME, I'M experiencing', but it's not true when looked at, that's just part of experience too. Nothing separate, no boundaries, just seamless experience.

"Is there anywhere, in any experience, ever, a 'me', 'I', or myself that can be separated out in any way?"............No, nothing separate, just experience happening. Awareness of experience happening. Could be the same thing.......

S'dh X.

[Hare]

Afternoon!

Experience is that mental events don't arise from anywhere or go anywhere discernible, not possible to actually 'see' them arising or passing

Agreed!

just noticing presence and absence

Presence is noticed in DE. Have a closer look - is absence in fact noticed in DE? Or is 'absence' a construct of mind, built on memory?

What is doing the noticing is the constant experience

Is 'constant experience' something / someone doing the noticing? Or is noticing simply happening?

Hardest thing to describe is that thoughts do not feel different to or separate from the noticing/awareness-not exactly the same as when there is no thinking happening, but not exactly different either.

Not sure I get this...?

No narrative or story to be found, just strong sensation which mind calls fear/anxiety.

Welcome and explore these sensations. Be interested! Investigate.

Sense of tenderness towards this

Nice.

strong mental pull towards wanting to say 'ME, I'M experiencing'

See that this is a story in thought! Is there any need to believe the story?

'ME!!!!!! I'M looking at THAT!!!!!!'

The 100-million dollar question is, who's believing the thought?

Is thought something to believe, or identify with, without question? Without even noticing the blind belief?

What's closer to reality? Direct experience? Or thoughts and commentary about experience?

Is this thought reality or is it..well...just a passing thought?

What's there when thoughts are not automatically believed?

nothing substantial, just a mental event happening. Again, feeling of tenderness

Excellent.

just experience happening. Awareness of experience happening. Could be the same thing.......

Could be! ...Are awareness and experience 2 different things? Are there actually any such things as a subject and an object?

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hi Hare,

"Presence is noticed in DE"......Of course! Only what is present can be experienced in DE. This explains why the experience of thought and absence of thought don't feel different-which is what I was trying to describe/explain in last post-there is always just DE happening.

"Is 'constant experience' something or someone doing the noticing?"..........Noticing/awareness just happening, this is constant experience.

"See that this is just a story in thought"..........Yes! It's tenacious tho.......

"Who is believing the thought?".........No-one. No-one there to believe it, it's just a thought/mental fabrication. 'Believing' would just be more mental fabrication.

"Is thought something to believe or identify with without question?".........No, thoughts just thoughts. Can contain some useful info/ideas, so worth checking out, but not to be believed in lock, stock and barrel. And certainly not what/who 'I' am.

"What's closer to reality?".........Direct experience.

"Is this thought reality?"......Nah, just a passing thought.

What's there when thoughts are not automatically believed?"........Direct experience. Peace and quiet. Spaciousness. Care (about what is REALLY going on).

"Are awareness and experience 2 different things?".......No, they cannot be separated, there is no boundary. Mysterious........

"Are there actually any such things as a subject and an object?"..........No......Just this......In spite of what mind (which is not 'me' in any separate or fixed way) has to say at times......

Am wondering about volition in the midst of all this......?

S'dh X.

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini,

"See that this is just a story in thought"..........Yes! It's tenacious tho.......

Is 'I' nothing more than a story in thought? Does it being a 'tenacious' story make it any more real? Look.

"Who is believing the thought?".........No-one. No-one there to believe it, it's just a thought/mental fabrication. 'Believing' would just be more mental fabrication.

:-)

"Is thought something to believe or identify with without question?".........No, thoughts just thoughts... certainly not what/who 'I' am.

Is 'I' nothing more than an idea in thought? If 'I' am anything other than this, what? LOOK.

"Is this thought reality?"......Nah, just a passing thought.

So is the 'I' thought reality? Or is it just a passing thought?

Am wondering about volition in the midst of all this......?

OK try this:

Find half an hour when you don't have anything to do and when you won't be disturbed. Sit quietly in a chair and think of some things that you could usefully do in that half hour -- tidy the desk/make a cuppa/weed the garden/read the paper/do nothing. Now just sit and watch as competing ideas arise and sense the strength of the volition or 'directionality' behind them -- notice how an idea can arise and gather energy and it almost eventuates but then the energy falls away and a new idea arises. See that decision isn't a mental event -- but an energetic one. Now during this half hour you are free to do any of the things that occur -- or none -- what happens during the half hour?

x H

[Sraddhadharani]

Hello Hare,

"Is 'I' anything more than a story in thought?"........No.

"Does it being a tenacious story make it any more real?".........No, just persistent.

"Is 'I' anything more than a story in thought?.......If anything other than this, what?"........It's just a thought, an idea. Have had a good look and there is nothing else, nothing substantial, permanent or fixed that it could be. Some sadness about this for some reason......

"Is the 'I' thought reality, or just a passing thought?".......Just a thought like every other, not different or special or more real.

"Find half an hour........what happens during the half hour?".......Not feeling very energetic today. Sitting on sofa, lots of things that 'could/should' be done. More sitting on sofa. Drinking of cup of tea. Looking at/stroking dog on sofa. Feeling identified as needing to pee happening, but no movement as yet. More thinking about what could/should be done. Looking out of the window happening. Feeling of heat in head, taking off of hat happening. More drinking of tea. Still sitting on sofa. More looking at/stroking dog. Sighing. Sensation of needing to pee getting stronger, but still no movement. More tea drinking. Listening to sounds-wind in chimney, quad bike going past (mind naming/identifying sound experience). More sighing. Thinking about stuff to be done happening, but still no movement. (Except typing.) More drinking tea and looking out of window. Really do need to pee but still no movement. Looking at empty cups-thought comes that they could be taken to kitchen when I go to loo, but still nothing happening. More sitting on sofa. Feeling of energy gathering.....some time later-took cups to kitchen, had a pee and cleaned the bathroom, which wasn't on list of stuff to do, but needed doing so feels positive anyway. Sitting back on sofa, stroking and talking to dog. Bit of time looking at stuff on phone.......and that's it, time's up!

Also wondering about volition in terms of ethical/moral stuff. Where/how does inspiration/volition to develop/behave 'spiritually'/positively/for the benefit of all beings, to not want to cause harm etc fit? What is it that knows/differentiates (don't quite know how to describe it) in area of ethical behaviour/right and wrong etc? Am clear it's not 'me' or 'I' in any separate or fixed way, but is still significant contributor to action/behaviour.

Thanks,
S'dh x.

[Hare]

Hi Sraddhadharini,

"Is the 'I' thought reality, or just a passing thought?".......Just a thought like every other, not different or special or more real.

Good observation

....what happens during the half hour?"....

So, does energy / volition in any way require a separate self?

Also wondering about volition in terms of ethical/moral stuff. Where/how does inspiration/volition to develop/behave 'spiritually'/positively/for the benefit of all beings, to not want to cause harm etc fit? What is it that knows/differentiates (don't quite know how to describe it) in area of ethical behaviour/right and wrong etc?

Mind has many many questions! This is one of the ways it maintains resistance. Questions on this level are endless. Be on the lookout, there are always more! No problem. Let thought do its thing. Make commentary. Ask questions...and so on.... The only problem is that you are identifying with thoughts - you are trying to answer this inquiry through the medium of thought, not by looking directly. This won't work!

Accept that your questions may not all be answered at this point. Explanation of how life, the universe and everything works is not the remit of this inquiry, which is simply and purely into whether a separate self can actually be found, not in theory but directly experienced, in any way.

Still, it may be useful to directly notice experience of behaviour that could be termed skillful or unskillful over the next day or two.

Does the idea of a separate 'me' create more connection with others? Or more separation?

Does the experience of 'getting out of one's own way' create more, or less skillful action?

Does holding to the idea of a separate self-entity contribute in any way to greater ethical behaviour?

Is 'ethical behaviour' natural, to the extent one sees things as they really are?

Take a look.

(You can reflect on this, and more, to your hearts content, as life continues to unfold. It may be worth reflecting that neither the Buddha nor any of the great Buddhist teachers taught that morality comes from a separate self-entity - or from believing in one! Especially as they uniformly saw clearly that belief in a separate self is a delusion! In fact, they taught that morality arises on the basis of awareness + right view: seeing things as they actually are.)

Am clear it's not 'me' or 'I' in any separate or fixed way, but is still significant contributor to action/behaviour.

If it isn't 'me' or 'I' in any separate or fixed way, well - what is it? Who, precisely, is this significant contributor? Look. Investigate.

x H