In need of assistance here

[JimmyG]

Hi Fred

Give me two examples of any apparent decision-making events.

To call my aunt
To choose which sweater to wear

1) As the choice unfolds, can a chooser be experienced? Are ‘you’ the chooser?

As I reflect on the choices today it occurs to me that choices eventually simply happen. To call my aunt for example. Did I really choose to call her this morning? No, it’s more like just happened out of the blue. So it is with the sweater. I opened the cupboard and my eyes happened to fall on the red sweater with my hands grabbing it. Did this “I” consciously choose to call the aunt or pick the sweater? How could that be – there’s no “I” in the first place (conclusion in forgoing reply), the choice just happens, hence there’s no chooser - no chooser at all.

2) What factors are taken into consideration when the choice occurs?

I am not sure if I understand this question? It seems like “my-these” choices occur in a benevolent manner to towards this fictitious “I”, looking for pleasure and avoiding pain basically. Or it might be a fictitious “us”, an ‘idea’lized or imagined group of “people”. A totally elusive status quo of an imagined something.

3) Is there location of choosing, a choice point?

Since the choosing just happens (out of the blue) there can neither exist any location of choosing nor any choice points? Choosing always only happens, anyhow.

4) Do thoughts have an influence on what happens?

Simply put, I can think whatever I want, if some choice happens literally out of the blue, just immediately thoughts start occurring around the event of this new choice. Do thoughts then have an influence of what happens? My thoughts seem to start coming in after the choice “picking the red sweater” happened, then thoughts are of no influence on what happens, instead they are a reaction on choices already happening. Put in slightly different words: “my” thoughts are always only a reaction on “past” or “future” imagined events or choices and thus don’t have an reality. So the closest thing what I can see now reality is, is what’s happening now. “my” thoughts don’t influence what happens, they’re more like a sports commentator, nothing but commenting…

5) Do thoughts comment on what happens? When, in relation to the event, does the commentary come up?

Once a choice has popped up, thoughts start commenting. As soon as the choice happened this morning, to call my aunt, thoughts started roaming in, commenting. In relation to the event, a choice or just some happening, commentary always starts coming up afterwards. No sooner than any event do thoughts come in and so they’re commenting “past events”. What I reckon now is , what truly is happening is totally beyond thought. It looks like thinking then is trying to make sense of something which defies accurate description.

Well, I wonder what you find in this. There's still something wrong here, isn't it?

JimmyG

[Freddi]

Hi JimmyG

There's still something wrong here, isn't it?

I wonder what makes you say this? I saw many clear observations in your post… For example, this:

the choice just happens, hence there’s no chooser - no chooser at all.

And this:

“my” thoughts don’t influence what happens, they’re more like a sports commentator, nothing but commenting…

And this:

what truly is happening is totally beyond thought. It looks like thinking then is trying to make sense of something which defies accurate description.

Fred: What factors are taken into consideration when the choice occurs?
JimmyG: It seems like “my-these” choices occur in a benevolent manner to towards this fictitious “I”, looking for pleasure and avoiding pain basically.

You understood the question perfectly. Some apparently ‘external’ factors, like the weather, or what was chosen last time, seem to influence the decision. Sort of like different threads coming together. As you observe, they may indeed amount to a movement away from pain, towards pleasure. Nowhere, in there, can you find an actual separate entity making the choice, or can you?

I would like you to go and sit somewhere quiet, maybe somewhere in nature. Take a notebook with you. For a moment, step out of the mind stream and come back to your breath. Notice all that is seen, heard, touched, sensed, tasted, smelled. Write it all down, without discrimination, or selection. Give me a ten minutes slice of Life, everything that happens. If a thought pops up, write it down but frame it with ‘the thought that …’, just notice it fly by, don’t embark on that train.

Then contemplate these questions:
1) See the shapes, colours, below the labels, how it is all moving, dancing? Isn’t it a permanent miracle?
What if I told that what is experienced, right there, That’s it! That is all there is, everything else is mental projection. What comes up?
2) Can you see/hear/touch a ‘you’, looking at the world (the not-you), from behind the eyes?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[JimmyG]

Hey Fred

JimmyG: There's still something wrong here, isn't it?
Fred: I wonder what makes you say this? I saw many clear observations in your post

Yes, you're right, Fred. By sending the reply off some I felt somewhat awkward since instead of doing business I worked on the reply this morning.

You understood the question perfectly. Some apparently ‘external’ factors, like the weather, or what was chosen last time, seem to influence the decision. Sort of like different threads coming together. As you observe, they may indeed amount to a movement away from pain, towards pleasure. Nowhere, in there, can you find an actual separate entity making the choice, or can you?

No way.

I would like you to go and sit somewhere quiet, maybe somewhere in nature. Take a notebook with you. For a moment, step out of the mind stream and come back to your breath. Notice all that is seen, heard, touched, sensed, tasted, smelled. Write it all down, without discrimination, or selection. Give me a ten minutes slice of Life, everything that happens. If a thought pops up, write it down but frame it with ‘the thought that …’, just notice it fly by, don’t embark on that train.

Water flowing in a river, smooth ripples passing by. Different sounds of fowl and birds, some of them flying by, diving or swimming in the river. There are distant cow bells ringing, a car passing by, then has set, it’s getting dark and with increasing darkness it’s getting cold. The air is very refreshing. Sitting on a trunk which serves as a bench by the river occasional gurgles are heard in the dark somewhere. A jogger passes by, I notice his steps and hear him breathing. Far out I see distant street and housing lightening. Right besides me there trees and shrubs with fading leaves are fading in the dark. The ground is covered with green grass and fading leaves. Ducks fly by, two of them land right before me in the water. Thought passes by: How wonderful this all pervading silence…I notice I slight headache (caused my hitting a wooden staircase earlier in the afternoon) – strange feeling. Water splashing by some fowl or fish, peaceful scenery, natural occurrences – a thought passes by: this is so beautiful. In front of me out in the field, there’s the contour of a beautiful tree, there’s lightening from a distant town which becomes stronger as the daylight is fading, less birds and fowl but no, look, more fowl and birds to hear and see, and another duck and another…

Then contemplate these questions:
1) See the shapes, colours, below the labels, how it is all moving, dancing? Isn’t it a permanent miracle?

That’s what came up naturally, thoughts like this all pervasive silence, this is so beautiful, full, perfect – indeed miraculous… And probably the most beautiful thing is not to be separate from it all…intrinsically one…

What if I told that what is experienced, right there, That’s it! That is all there is, everything else is mental projection. What comes up?

That means not only past and future don’t exist, the rest of the entire universe doesn’t exist either except in mental projection… All that ever exists is this very moment, now – full stop

and this very moment is, at best, a mental projection – full stop

…again a thousand times read and heard about this but up to this point – never really grasped this hilarious NOW…

Fred, I hope you don’t mind but I have to type this here:

“It is right in your face.
This moment,
The whole thing is handed to you.”
-Zen master Yuanwu (1062-1135)

WHO AM I? THAT – full stop

2) Can you see/hear/touch a ‘you’, looking at the world (the not-you), from behind the eyes?

No, there is no “I” to see, hear or touch. No line between here and there – it (the world) is one happening without doer…finally there some understanding of

“Everything ○ is nothing with a twist ∞ “ (again, please forgive me for quoting but this is almost too good to be true)

I am kinda baffled...

JimmyG

[Freddi]

Hello JimmyG

Thanks again for your post. It is a really pleasure to accompany you in this exploration.

Let’s revisit your beautiful slice of Life and sort out what is direct experience and what is not.

‘Distant cow bells’: What is ‘distant’, in direct experience? How do you know it is distant? Is the experiencing of the cow bells happening remotely? Is it a quality of the sound that is giving rise to this interpretation?

‘Water splashing by some fowl or fish’. How do you know what is making the water splash? Direct experience is ‘water splashing’, then comes the interpretation, right? Do you see the difference?

‘distant town’. Same as above. What makes it distant? Is the seeing of the lights happening out there? Or is it all happening in the same place, closer than close? Maybe you can keep going and look at what is experience and what is interpretation, to make sure we’re singing from the same hymn sheet, here.

And probably the most beautiful thing is not to be separate from it all…intrinsically one…

Consider this: What is there in the first place that could or could not be separate from it all?

and this very moment is, at best, a mental projection – full stop

Interesting. What makes you say this? As you observe all that is experienced right here and now, the moving, the dancing of this ever-changing happening, what about it is a mental projection?

I am kinda baffled...

Baffled is good. It is soooo simple that our mind cannot grasp this. Yet it is staring us in the face, tapping us on the shoulder all the time.

Warm wishes,

Fred

[JimmyG]

Hi Fred

I managed to visit the same place as yesterday and this is what has come up:

‘Distant cow bells’: What is ‘distant’, in direct experience? How do you know it is distant? Is the experiencing of the cow bells happening remotely? Is it a quality of the sound that is giving rise to this interpretation?

It’s not the quality of the sound. It looks like as soon I heard the bells, flashes of images of cows appeared. There’s wasn’t any cow bell today but other sounds occurred, this time there was the recognition of a ‘sound’ happening. It’s not about ‘within or without’, there’s only a happening without a story attached.

‘Water splashing by some fowl or fish’. How do you know what is making the water splash? Direct experience is ‘water splashing’, then comes the interpretation, right? Do you see the difference?

Yes, I clearly see the difference. Again upon the water splashing yesterday an elusive story about ‘fowl or fish’ appeared – actually there was only splashing happening. Today I enjoyed the gurgling of water – water gurgling happens - and here too, no story attached.

‘distant town’. Same as above. What makes it distant? Is the seeing of the lights happening out there? Or is it all happening in the same place, closer than close? Maybe you can keep going and look at what is experience and what is interpretation, to make sure we’re singing from the same hymn sheet, here.

To describe lightening seems to be much easier when put out there with an interpretation. But today by being more attentive to the task given, it was more like colors, sounds, forms and shapes are moving or happening. I could see and recognize the temptation to put names on these movements or happenings. It gets so much more intense and ‘alive’ by refraining from labelling. And labelling then is distortion. Watching just happens.

Rolly: And probably the most beautiful thing is not to be separate from it all…intrinsically one…
Fred: Consider this: What is there in the first place that could or could not be separate from it all?

The elusive “I”, the elusive sense of separation.

Rolly: and this very moment is, at best, a mental projection – full stop
Interesting. What makes you say this? As you observe all that is experienced right here and now, the moving, the dancing of this ever-changing happening, what about it is a mental projection?

“this very moment is, at best, a mental projection”, this is only speculation. I see the ever-changing happening as the mysterious - there is no doer – no mind to project anything, no commentator.

Thank you
JimmyG

[JimmyG]

Good Morning Fred

This is one of my recent comments:

No, there is no “I” to see, hear or touch. No line between here and there – it (the world) is one happening without doer…finally there some understanding of

Well by waking up there's heavy negative commentating going on and then it seems that there actually is 'no understanding' at all. The main problem is it seems that this "I" is still too much identified with business which currently doesn't run as well as this "commentator" would like to have it - hence this commentating just attacks anything (one could call it depression). And then there are moments of clarity when commentating goes 'finally there is some understanding' (which of course is kind of vague).
This is just pointing to what's going on here.

JimmyG

[JimmyG]

Hi Fred

I just heard you asking: Is there a someone having the experience here? Is there someone listening to a commentating here? Is the commentating true? Or does all just happen, out of the blue? Just look!

Fred, do these questions point adequately?

Great to be with you,
JimmyG

[Freddi]

Hi JimmyG,

Fred: Consider this: What is there in the first place that could or could not be separate from it all?
JimmyG: The elusive “I”, the elusive sense of separation

Don’t look in your thoughts for this, scan your direct experience. What reality does this elusive sense of separation have? You said earlier ‘the most beautiful thing is not to be separate from it all’, I am asking is there any actual entity that can or can’t be separate?

Well by waking up there's heavy negative commentating going on and then it seems that there actually is 'no understanding' at all.

As I was saying yesterday, this is not about understanding. The ‘mind’ (for want of a better word) cannot grasp this. It is beyond it. However, when the illusion is seen through, our thinking can come back with a vengeance and aim to own, or deny the seeing.

The main problem is it seems that this "I" is still too much identified with business which currently doesn't run as well as this "commentator" would like to have it

Always bring such thoughts back to this moment, and see if it is supported by the happening of this moment.
Look at this statement: This ‘I’ is still identified with business …. Stop. Step out of the mind stream, and take a good look. Notice the seeing, the hearing, the buzz and tingle, the aliveness of this moment.
Where is this ‘I’ now? Where is this business, now? Do you need to go into thoughts to see them?
Where is the problem, now? Can you point to it?
Same for this ‘commentator’. Where is it? Can it be directly experienced? Or does it only come up as a character in a thought?

Always ask yourself these questions: Is that thought true, when I take a look at what is actually happening now? Or is it telling me about something that is not (verifiably and tangibly) happening?

Would it be OK if the commentator voice still came up with its little stories, at least for a while? Could it be welcome, accepted, surrendered to, as part of WHAT IS?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[JimmyG]

Hey Fred

Thank you so much an amazing concise and clear cut pointing.
I am hanging in there today.

till soon
JimmyG

[Freddi]

Thanks for letting me know, I look forward to your response, Rolly.
Warm wishes
Fred

[JimmyG]

Hi Fred

Your comments are amazingly concise and much appreciated.

Don’t look in your thoughts for this, scan your direct experience. What reality does this elusive sense of separation have?

I can’t find a reality to it, there’s no separation. I see that it is just another thought, some idea or imagination.

You said earlier ‘the most beautiful thing is not to be separate from it all’, I am asking is there any actual entity that can or can’t be separate?

No, no separation and I can’t draw a line anywhere nor can I find an entity that can or can’t be separated.

As I was saying yesterday, this is not about understanding. The ‘mind’ (for want of a better word) cannot grasp this. It is beyond it. However, when the illusion is seen through, our thinking can come back with a vengeance and aim to own, or deny the seeing.

Yes and the rope appears as the snake again.

Always bring such thoughts back to this moment, and see if it is supported by the happening of this moment.
Look at this statement: This ‘I’ is still identified with business …. Stop. Step out of the mind stream, and take a good look. Notice the seeing, the hearing, the buzz and tingle, the aliveness of this moment. Where is this ‘I’ now?

It has evaporated!

Where is this business, now?

Business too is evaporating.

Do you need to go into thoughts to see them?

Definitely, yes! If I want to “see” what this ‘I” or the business I have to think, to name and label. Then some thoughts perpetually repeat themselves over and over, stories evolve …until I step out of the mind stream. It’s an amazing happening.

Where is the problem, now?

The problem evaporates too once I start really looking for it. It only exist through thinking.

Can you point to it?

Actually no. For to point to it I need to go into thinking. Without thinking I find no meaning in pointing to.

Same for this ‘commentator’. Where is it?

Commentating requires thought, a mind stream. Again if I become still the commentator subsides.

Can it be directly experienced? Or does it only come up as a character in a thought?

Exactly, a commenting character is truly only thought.

Always ask yourself these questions: Is that thought true, when I take a look at what is actually happening now? Or is it telling me about something that is not (verifiably and tangibly) happening?

Indeed a good part of my thousand thoughts during the day are totally superfluous, repetitive and misleading. If I pay attention to what goes on in this moment the thought stream decreases instantly. By becoming more and more attentive to what thoughts occur, the stream should then drop proportionally.

Would it be OK if the commentator voice still came up with its little stories, at least for a while? Could it be welcome, accepted, surrendered to, as part of WHAT IS?

Yes, definitely. Welcoming, accepting and surrendering to the voice as part of WHAT IS actually is the best option.


Thank you so much Fred for your continuous support
Rolly

[Freddi]

Hello Rolly

Yes, definitely. Welcoming, accepting and surrendering to the voice as part of WHAT IS actually is the best option.

Yes. The other option is to listen to that voice that sometimes argues with what is, takes us into a virtual reality that is not actually happening. This can only result in suffering.

Again, I read a lot of clarity in what you write. Thank you for sharing this exploration.

I feel that you have seen through the illusion of the separate self, indeed of any separation. Would you say that it is the case?

As you have looked in direct experience, have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’, the ‘doer’, or ‘the controller’?

With no one in charge, no one at the helm, what are ‘you’ responsible for?

Have you been able to find a self that does the thinking?

Is the "body" just another thought label for various sensations?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

As usual, don't scan your thoughts for the answers, look at what is directly experienced, right here and now.

Warm wishes,

Fred

[JimmyG]

Hello Fred

I feel that you have seen through the illusion of the separate self, indeed of any separation. Would you say that it is the case?

Yes, I can’t draw lines, can’t cut off bits and pieces from this one happening, can’t disconnect anything – there’s no separation, just one happening, one play – if any at all.

As you have looked in direct experience, have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’, the ‘doer’, or ‘the controller’?

Hearing, seeing, touching, smelling – all just happens, I can’t see a self, only thoughts about a ‘self’. No, I can’t find a ‘self’.
I recognize that, what is, a happening that is named and labeled by thoughts, just as passing clouds cover up the vast sky on a cloudy day. I don’t see a reality to thoughts and so I can’t find an ‘experiencer’.
Same thing with doing. I see that there is ‘doing happening’ and again, thoughts commentating. Without a ‘self’, without an ‘experiencer’ I find no doer here.
Who would be the controller here? I can’t make out a controller of what is, of what is happening now. I find that thoughts create the impression, or better the illusion, of a controlling ‘I’.

With no one in charge, no one at the helm, what are ‘you’ responsible for?

Ups… If I summarize – no, self, no experiencer, no doer, not even a controller – who or what could be responsible of what? Uups…this is really striking…

Have you been able to find a self that does the thinking?

Again, the concept of a ‘self’ requires thinking? I can’t find a ‘self’ which defies thought.

Is the "body" just another thought label for various sensations?

Yes, definitely. There’s the movement of this body happening and there’s the commentating thought stream. Movements just happen, I cannot make out or think out, how to just lift my finger. It just happens and thought commentates.

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

…this is striking… same thing, no separation whatsoever.

That reminds me of Robert Wolfe: ‘That’ or the Absolute is ‘Q ‘…and finally it somehow strikes here…

Thanks so much
Rolly

[Freddi]

Hello again Rolly

Thanks for your responses. Here is what I suggest. I would like to send you our usual summing-up questions, at this stage.
When we are both happy with your answers, I will invite other guides to take a look, to make sure we've looked everywhere for that 'self'. They may or may not have further questions to ask for clarification.
Then your name will turn blue and you will be invited to some post-gate, support discussion groups, where you can ask questions and share your experiences. This is a great resource for dealing with the ‘residue’, the habitual thinking that can still kick in. You will also have access to another part of the forum where you and I can open a new thread and look further, if you would like that.

What do you say?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[JimmyG]

Hallo Fred

Yes, I'm with you, let's do as you say.

Thanks so much
Rolly