OKness

[Tigger]

Can you tell already the difference of the concept called "knee" and that what has been directly experienced while exploring that - what is called "knee"?

Yes, it's entirely different when not labeled. It's multi - dimensional and alive.

Can you tell how you look at that particular part of the body called "knee" and how different ideas, thoughts, memories, speculations, etc. arise in the mind?

Yes

Can you tell how the concept of "knee" appears to be sort of solid, somewhat unchangable?

Yes

Can you tell how that concept of "knee" touches at most a surface of what "knee" really is about?

Can you see how the direct experience of "knee" exposes a changing flux, together with an inherent uncertainty of what will be seen?

Yes, and immediately curiosity "What is this".

Please take your time, sit with the questions, and write down what you explored.


Thank you very much!
tw

[Angelika]

Hello Todd,

Most wonderfully done! :)

Please sit comfortably and explore your left hand, using the tool of direct experience.

- In direct experience we describe what is seen, heard, smelled, tasted and felt during an exploration.
Thoughts, concepts, mental images are merely noticed and noted for what they are, namely either thougths, concepts, or mental images. -

• If you look at your left hand, what do you see?
  
  Please sit with this exploration and look for yourself.
  Please describe as detailed as possible that - what is experienced directly.

The next step is to return once more to the notion, the concept of "me", "I", "self".

• While exploring the left hand, was there any solid center, any "I, me or self" behind the actual process of exploration?

Thank you very much indeed!

A very happy Holiday!

Angelika :)

[Tigger]

Q: If you look at your left hand, what do you see?

[quoteI feel Very small bubbles of energy in a silent background also make of infinite smaller and larger energy. Thoughts or images arise from time to time about hand that are familiar mental impressions of a hand and I notice skin, hair, nails. Noticing of the concept of thought image of hand appearing as a familiar form of hand and the bubbles slow or dissapear as a felt experience. Noticing this same concept as a simultaneous perceptual shift of how hand appears as skin, hair and nails when thought of hand arises as a mental image. Seeing hand as almost inanimate not belonging to anything specifically. Notice a lack of interest in the familiar and openness the unfamiliar. The unfamiliar feels more true. [/quote]

Thank You,

tw

[moondog]

Hi Todd,

I am sorry to have to tell you that Angelika has suddenly become unavailable to guide. However, she has asked if I would be willing to take over guiding you, and I'd be very happy to do so. My name is Pete and I live in Somerset in England. I'm an experienced guide and have helped many folks to see clearly that the separate self is nothing but an illusion.

Are you happy for me to continue? If so, I'll let you know how best to move forward next time I write to you.

Pete x

[Tigger]

Please give my warmest regards to Angelika for her guidance.

Yes, I am happy to continue with your guidance.

Thanks,
tw

[moondog]

Hi Todd,

Thanks for agreeing to continue under my guidance. I'll pass on your warm regards to Angelika.

I undertake to write once a day if I possibly can, and will let you know if I'm unable to do that for any reason and trust that you're happy to do the same. I usually post at around this time, sometimes earlier, sometimes later, occassionally more than once a day. So, it's far from written in stone :)

I've read through your thread to date with Angelika and it's clear to me that you've made good progress with her in seeing that there really is no separate self. However, as I'm sure you appreciate, each guide has his or her own particular style and can really only follow that. Mine uses a fairly organised structure, pointing you to look within each possible area of direct experience for any evidence of a separate self. This structure allows us as much flexibility as is needed to look at any particular areas in depth. Once it is seen that no self is to be found in experience in any possible area, it becomes clearly known that the separate self is just an illusion, just a thought, no more than that. So, please bear with me if we seem to be going over old ground. It can only be helpful for you as part of this exploration.

It's natural, of course, to wonder and speculate about what liberation/awakening will be like but, by its very nature, I can assure you that it's just not like anyone expects, although it does differ for each one of us. I'd just stress that the work we do is definitely not intellectual or thought-based. That being so, as Angelika has already stressed, it's very helpful if you can put aside any expectations, as they reside in thoughts about the future and so are not within direct experience.

Rest assured, that when you see that there isn't and never has been a 'you', a self-entity, with my guiding to help you see that fact for yourself, you'll just know. In exactly the same way that you know that unicorns aren't real, Batman doesn't exist, and there's no Santa Claus. It isn't fundamentally at all difficult, amazingly simple in fact, but only if you don't rely on trying to figure it out by thinking it through but, instead, just LOOK, LOOK, LOOK in direct experience.

So, as I've already said, actually seeing for sure that there is no separate self, and never has been, is different for everyone. It can come with a definite pop of realisation, or it might creep up gradually until it is seen. Also the effects on life lived after liberation can vary widely.

It’s worth mentioning at this stage that what can hold a lot of people back, and something that we can perhaps knock on the head now, are assumptions around what one would 'be like' or what life ought to 'look like' once it’s seen that there’s no self-entity. There is a view that 'getting it' is tantamount to kind of somehow seeing it all the time, or being in some kind of state in which negative emotions or problems don’t arise.

It's really helpful to be clear that it's not any kind of state - it's simply direct knowing, insight. The Santa example puts it very well - 'seeing through' Santa, i.e. knowing for sure that there is no Santa, doesn't mean that little kids then spend the rest of their lives constantly thinking, 'there's no Santa'! Nor does it mean that Santa isn't apparently spotted in shopping malls in December. It's just that the story has been seen through. The direct knowing of no-self may be recollected at any time, but states still continue to come and go - pleasant, unpleasant, 'positive', 'negative'. However, that said, changes will be noticed, some possibly quite dramatic, including in relation to suffering arising from a pre-occupation with a separate self that simply doesn't exist!

So, let's get going Todd. Just look at the following statement, and ponder it every which way you can:

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?

And next:

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ 'me' that you hold 'yourself' to be?

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?

Pete x

[Tigger]

I have not expectations of what will happen.


Nothing exists outside the present moment.

No

Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?

Yes, a memory of the past creating feelings, emotions etc. leading me to believe I am experiencing the past but of course that's an illusion. The feeling of the past and the believing of it is happening in the present moment only. [/quote

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ 'me' that you hold 'yourself' to be?

Its a kind of feeling and justification. Like a centering experience, familiar and somewhat safe, like I know where I am or who I am.

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?

It can not be found directly........

Thanks,
tw

[moondog]

Hi Todd,

I have not expectations of what will happen.

That's good to know. Expectations only ever take us away from experiencing, which is always right now.

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

No.

Excellent.

Yes, a memory of the past creating feelings, emotions etc. leading me to believe I am experiencing the past but of course that's an illusion. The feeling of the past and the believing of it is happening in the present moment only.

That's true.

And can you see that even 'memory' is just a label for thoughts and sensations that just bubble up, arise, in the present?

Its a kind of feeling and justification. Like a centring experience, familiar and somewhat safe, like I know where I am or who I am.
It can not be found directly........

No it can't. But can you find it indirectly, or at all? If so, how? Where is it? How does it appear?

So good Todd, I'm pleased with that. Just to reiterate, my job as your guide during this enquiry will be simply to point out to you where and how to look in direct experience so that you can see for sure for yourself whether there's a separate self-entity anywhere doing or being anything.

As you'll have seen, the initial questions point you towards looking into 'your' direct experience, which is, as I say, where I'll be frequently pointing you to look, and where this investigation will take place. That's as opposed to thought content. Direct experience is the very core of what we're doing here with this. Essentially, and utterly fundamentally, all there is, and can ever be, is here right now in this moment. So looking to see whether a separate and separating self is to be found can only take place within direct experience of this. Now. There's nothing else. It follows therefore that all of our work to realise and actually know that there is no self is done by investigating In direct experience. To this end, we can divide direct experience into thought, sensations (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling [tactile and kinaesthetic] and an unmistakable sense of Aliveness (presence/being). Please take a look at this useful article at
http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.

As I keep saying, the whole of this investigation centres around looking in direct experience to see if a self-entity can be found anywhere there. This is accompanied by seeing that it is in thoughts and only in thoughts that 'I' ever 'occurs' and that 'I' doesn't actually occur there either because thoughts, or at least their contents, are neither reliable nor real in any sense.

So, let's get back to investigating in direct experience where a self-entity might be by looking at sense arisings and the self as experiencer:

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.

Pete x

[Tigger]

Thanks for the article.

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

Nope, just seeing.

If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?

If an I shows up, the boundaries are in a relationship between me and the book, tree or whatever usually consists of a preconditioned or previous relationship with the object from the past repeating itself.

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.

Sound seems to be the easiest for me just hearing no hearer. Tasting the most difficult the "I" seems to have huge preferences. Tactile feelings - it varies some of the instinctual are quite embedded as a preservation others are simple to feel where the "I" begins to own the experience. Smelling, I am beginning to get the hang of that one with the help of experiencing the other portals.

tw

[moondog]

Hi Todd,

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

Nope, just seeing.

Ok, it's good that 'you' are aware that there's no self-entity present 'doing' the seeing.

If an I shows up, the boundaries are in a relationship between me and the book, tree or whatever usually consists of a preconditioned or previous relationship with the object from the past repeating itself.

Given that you've just said that there's no 'I' to be found in seeing, can you explain what you mean by 'if an I shows up'. How does that happen? What does it look like in direct experience?

When you look at something, a book, tree, the view out off your window or whatever, purely in direct experience and not in any way in relation to thoughts and memories, can you find any boundary or separation between seer, seeing and the object being seen? Or, as you indicated in your first answer, is there just seeing? If you can find any boundaries, please describe them and how they function.

Sound seems to be the easiest for me just hearing no hearer. Tasting the most difficult the "I" seems to have huge preferences. Tactile feelings - it varies some of the instinctual are quite embedded as a preservation others are simple to feel where the "I" begins to own the experience. Smelling, I am beginning to get the hang of that one with the help of experiencing the other portals.

Again, just solely from 'your' direct experience - not from preconceptions or other thinking, and in a normal, relaxed manner, just see whether, when hearing, touching, tasting and smelling stuff you can find any experiencer present. In each case, can you find any separation between experiencer, experiencing and object being experienced?

I think it's going well so far Todd, and that you're doing well. How do you feel about it?

There's a couple of questions left over from last time (if they're in bold, it means I'm looking for an answer), so can you just let me have answers to those too please.

And can you see that even 'memory' is just a label for thoughts and sensations that just bubble up, arise, in the present?

Its a kind of feeling and justification. Like a centring experience, familiar and somewhat safe, like I know where I am or who I am.
It can not be found directly........

No it can't. But can you find it indirectly, or at all? If so, how? Where is it? How does it appear?

Pete x

[Tigger]

Again, just solely from 'your' direct experience - not from preconceptions or other thinking, and in a normal, relaxed manner, just see whether, when hearing, touching, tasting and smelling stuff you can find any experiencer present. In each case, can you find any separation between experiencer, experiencing and object being experienced?

No, experiencer present. No, separation. The arise of the seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling occur simutaneously with the observed experience of it and vice versa. That's all.

And can you see that even 'memory' is just a label for thoughts and sensations that just bubble up, arise, in the present?

Yes, I would rephrase; memories are brain sensations always occuring in the present moment.

No it can't. But can you find it indirectly, or at all? If so, how? Where is it? How does it appear?

NO, I don't seem to be able to find it indirectly now. That is I am have a hard time locating even a memory of it as to a Where or as an appearance.

[moondog]

Hi Todd,

Referring to the separate self you say:

NO, I don't seem to be able to find it indirectly now. That is I am have a hard time locating even a memory of it as to a Where or as an appearance.

Amazing isn't it how, when you truly examine the long-held notion and belief in 'your self', there's nothing to found to base it on after all.

No, experiencer present. No, separation. The arise of the seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling occur simutaneously with the observed experience of it and vice versa. That's all.

That's great. One thing to clarify, 'simultaneously' suggests two or more separate objects/arisings happening at the same time. In direct experience, can you even see that seeing, or hearing etc. is happening at the same time as 'the observed experience of it', or are they indistinguishable, i.e. the same 'thing'?

...memories are brain sensations always occurring in the present moment

Spot on.

So that's all good Todd, you seem to be seeing clearly from experience that there's no separate self present in sense arisings. Let's now move on to looking more specifically at thoughts and thinking, to see if there's a separate self to be found anywhere there.

Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?

As I said to you in the my previous post, this seems to be going really well so far Todd. What do you reckon? Are you enjoying the process so far?

Pete x

[Tigger]

That's great. One thing to clarify, 'simultaneously' suggests two or more separate objects/arisings happening at the same time. In direct experience, can you even see that seeing, or hearing etc. is happening at the same time as 'the observed experience of it', or are they indistinguishable, i.e. the same 'thing'?

Yes,I was referring to the arising of a sense object and the noticing of it as a simultaneous occurance. Glimpses at this point but with the knowing of it more glimpses this event are happening.

Where do thoughts come from?

As a direct experience from nowhere.

Are you in control of them?

Absolutely...............not

Can you stop it in the middle?

Absolutely...............not

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Absolutey................not

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Nope

Can a thought think?

Never

Yes, I am enjoying the process thank you. I could be guessing but it will take a little time to really settle into it and then again its all happening in the present moment. Reading my own conviction of my direct experience through dialogue with you is a very interesting process and even surprises me.

Tigger

[moondog]

Hi Todd,

Yes,I was referring to the arising of a sense object and the noticing of it as a simultaneous occurrence. Glimpses at this point but with the knowing of it more glimpses this event are happening.

Ok, thanks for explaining that Todd.

Where do thoughts come from?

As a direct experience from nowhere.

I like how you describe that. Your responses on thoughts and thinking are simple, straightforward, and right on the money.

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Nope.

I agree that they're both essentially the same, in as much as they're merely conceptual. I would just add that the table-thought, at least in relative, conventional terms, does refer to an object that exists, whereas the I-thought does not and cannot.

Ok, that's great and I'm glad that you're enjoying this looking process, perhaps seeing process is a better description. It's good that you're finding direct experience both interesting and surprising. I know I still do.

So, let's move on now to looking at actions, doing and controlling.

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of stuff.

Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

Pete x

[Tigger]

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

I took more time with this one and tried several activities. Walking is just walking, do dishes just doing dishes, etc.. Nothing added.

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of stuff.

Same, brushing teeth, washing up, typing, yoga, running. The more strenuous the activity the more difficult it is for me.

Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

Yes, automatic.