Question

[Tao]

Hi Allan

There is no ‘me’ except in thoughts/labels.

Was there ever a 'me'?

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Does the mind need to be convinced of no ‘self’, no ‘I’? I feel like I can use seeing, but something is refusing to be convinced of no self. Something doesn’t want to be convinced of this. That this can’t be what it is.

Ok so let's pinpoint exactly what that thing is that doesn't want to be convinced. Look carefully, what is refusing?

Also, my use of seeing seems a bit fragile, like it will just stop once this conversation is done.

What is saying this?

Even though I used the LU resources when could during my weekend away, when I came back from my weekend, as I returned to the conversation with you, something really amped up.
When I check with direct seeing, the mind doesn’t want to relinquish control.
The mind is also afraid that I can’t see this for myself.

What control is it the mind has?

Do you have any control over anything? Can the flow of events be controlled?

Let's not assume there is no control, go right to the spot where the mind is stubbornly trying to control things, see what that process is and describe it to me.

Somehow it wants to be shown. In my past endeavors with other groups, something in me expects something to happen by proximity to the ‘group’, or the ‘one’ the teacher. I don’t trust that this can happen for me with my own ‘seeing’ capacity.

What is in proximity to a group? Isn't this just a story of separation?

What is it that still needs to happen for you?

What is your seeing capacity?

There’s a sensation of disappointment. The expectation is high that there would be some revelation of ‘no self’ that would be more obvious. More freeing.

I feel crushed that this life cannot ever be real. My expectation is that it is real, in spite of never really having liked it too much. In the direct experience that I can muster in this moment, the world looks false. The heart doesn’t want to believe it and really dislikes it. It’s a bitter, heartbreaking truth to look at. I had a bitter love crush at 6 or 7. It seemed like it was destroying my world. There was nothing real left. That’s what this feels like, though there is no person at the center of it.
I really did think it would be much more of an ‘up’ experience to know this, but it’s really kind of awful. Just like the first heart break in love. I think my heart can only bear to feel this for a few moments at a time.
And now I’m giggling that this could be it. I feel like I’ve been tricked.

What a beautiful expression. Amazing how it manifests in so many different ways. Heartbreak means there was a strong attachment to an idea of union, falling in love, seeing the truth, whatever it may be, and some kind of story of pursuit or seeking has been playing out. Heart break appears when all hope of uniting in the perceived way dies away. Does this make sense? For you maybe in this case, it was an expectation about feeling overwhelming freedom, or something like that?

What can unite when nothing is separate from anything else?

What would you think and feel that is different to what you think and feel now? Do emotions stop fluctuating and stories stop appearing when you fall in love, or have an orgasm, or have a dream?

Thoughts are the tricksters, but nothing is actually being tricked here.

Tao

[AWH301]

Hi Tao,
I'm here. Struggling a bit with my response. I'll get back to you probably tomorrow.
Allan

[AWH301]

Hi Tao
The sensation didn’t last long (the heartbreak), though shortly after that I asked myself what I was really expecting from life. The answer shot back, “To dwell here”. I just laughed at the absurdity of it!

The mind really wants this life to be real. It’s clutching down so hard to maintain this being something that is real. It is depending on this to be real. However, it’s an illusion and not possible for it to be real. It’s the story (the mind) thinking it can reinforce itself and make this a lasting experience. What I glimpsed two days ago was the mirage-like nature of this story. It really appeared to have no substance and no meaning and no ‘one’. That was a shock. The illusion the mind created of what is real was exposed for a moment. Afterwards the story took control again, and I continued to look. I understand that what I’m referring to are thoughts and labels and there really is no control, but this is the experience as it happened. Awareness was there throughout.

I struggled last night with my responses to you. At one point I just began rambling/ranting on the keyboard and looking and resting and opening as it felt natural. I didn’t want to send all that scribbling, but hope to write something more concise this morning.

One thing that became apparent, is that if I focus on things, then they appear real. If I relax and look with awareness, they become transparent, as though I’m looking through them. I’m still not clear on who ‘I’ am. My guess is that ‘I’ am awareness with no particular focal point.

Was there ever a 'me'? Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. Does the mind need to be convinced of no ‘self’, no ‘I’?

I can’t find an ‘I’, ‘me’, though there is the feeling of it in the looking. It’s not a thing. The illusion of self is just a sensation of ‘me’ appearing to awareness. It includes many sensations such as mind, body, emotions, touch, but there is no definition between these phenomena. No lines of division or separation. They are just sensations, transparent to looking. The mind cannot be convinced since it is just another translucent appearance and is not is someone. As I see it now: When I relax and look it’s translucent. When I focus on me and my world, the world and what appears seem to be real.

Ok so let's pinpoint exactly what that thing is that doesn't want to be convinced. Look carefully, what is refusing?

After what I saw day before yesterday, the story of ‘me’ includes defending against the end of the dream. Includes the dislike of life being meaningless and fights the end of the dream by refusing to see what’s true. It really wants the story to continue. Peeking under the hood to find ‘no one’ undermines the story. There’s also fear of ‘me’ coming to an end. The dilemma is that the mirage of self has no actual power over the story. What I see is that SEEing and LOOKing continued even during the feeling of crisis that life is meaningless. Even during the heartbreak. As I continue to look and relax, the story and mind appear transparent.

Also, my use of seeing seems a bit fragile, like it will just stop once this conversation is done.
What is saying this?

As a part of the mirage, the mind is saying this trying to clamp down and keep everything ‘real’, in other words, to keep the dream intact. However, to looking and examination from awareness, it’s all transparent.

What control is it the mind has? Do you have any control over anything? Can the flow of events be controlled? Let's not assume there is no control, go right to the spot where the mind is stubbornly trying to control things, see what that process is and describe it to me.

The mind and brain can clamp down in an attempt to control the flow of the story. There’s the appearance of clenching down. It’s a defense against what’s real. Though as I continue to look carefully, this action doesn’t have any substance or power and can be seen though. It’s just appearing in what’s real.

Heart break appears when all hope of uniting in the perceived way dies away. Does this make sense? For you maybe in this case, it was an expectation about feeling overwhelming freedom, or something like that? What can unite when nothing is separate from anything else? What would you think and feel that is different to what you think and feel now? Do emotions stop fluctuating and stories stop appearing when you fall in love, or have an orgasm, or have a dream?

Yes, it makes sense, though as I mentioned at the beginning of this message today, it’s more an expectation of this story/appearance staying in place. It was such a shock to see that there’s no control over it, it has no meaning and it could end at any moment and even that ending would have no meaning. What would be different is that I would feel more open to the flow of things and happier as a result of not resisting life, or being able to see through resistance and suffering. And no, emotions do not stop. They continue with all those things.
Thanks!
Allan

[Tao]

Hi Allan,

Thank you for your last post, very clear where things are at now.

The sensation didn’t last long (the heartbreak), though shortly after that I asked myself what I was really expecting from life. The answer shot back, “To dwell here”. I just laughed at the absurdity of it!

Amazing isn't it!

One thing that became apparent, is that if I focus on things, then they appear real. If I relax and look with awareness, they become transparent, as though I’m looking through them. I’m still not clear on who ‘I’ am. My guess is that ‘I’ am awareness with no particular focal point.

Can you describe to me what 'focusing on things' involves? Is this something you are doing?

Are you really unclear on who/what you are? Is it not immediately and undeniably apparent?

I can’t find an ‘I’, ‘me’, though there is the feeling of it in the looking. It’s not a thing. The illusion of self is just a sensation of ‘me’ appearing to awareness. It includes many sensations such as mind, body, emotions, touch, but there is no definition between these phenomena. No lines of division or separation. They are just sensations, transparent to looking. The mind cannot be convinced since it is just another translucent appearance and is not is someone. As I see it now: When I relax and look it’s translucent. When I focus on me and my world, the world and what appears seem to be real.

Good stuff. So again, what is it that is focusing on 'me and my world'? Really pinpoint the focuser. Describe the process that is happening here.

After what I saw day before yesterday, the story of ‘me’ includes defending against the end of the dream. Includes the dislike of life being meaningless and fights the end of the dream by refusing to see what’s true. It really wants the story to continue. Peeking under the hood to find ‘no one’ undermines the story. There’s also fear of ‘me’ coming to an end. The dilemma is that the mirage of self has no actual power over the story. What I see is that SEEing and LOOKing continued even during the feeling of crisis that life is meaningless. Even during the heartbreak. As I continue to look and relax, the story and mind appear transparent.

So the dream presents an appearance of not wanting the dream to end. Is there ACTUALLY any resistance or conflict happening here? Or is the resistance just part of the imagination? If you need to, then explore deeply any feelings of conflict. Find what is resisting what.

What is it EXACTLY that wants the story to continue?

What is it that wants things?

The mind and brain can clamp down in an attempt to control the flow of the story. There’s the appearance of clenching down. It’s a defense against what’s real. Though as I continue to look carefully, this action doesn’t have any substance or power and can be seen though. It’s just appearing in what’s real.

So let's be sure, can the mind or brain actually clamp down? Is any real clamping down happening, or is this just an appearance?

Is there something called mind that is trying to uphold something called 'story'? Or is this just another story?

Yes, it makes sense, though as I mentioned at the beginning of this message today, it’s more an expectation of this story/appearance staying in place. It was such a shock to see that there’s no control over it, it has no meaning and it could end at any moment and even that ending would have no meaning. What would be different is that I would feel more open to the flow of things and happier as a result of not resisting life, or being able to see through resistance and suffering. And no, emotions do not stop. They continue with all those things.

You already are open to the flow of things, you can't be anything other than this. It is impossible. Nor are you resisting anything, can you resist anything? Thoughts and feelings of resistance can come and go. You can neither choose them nor resist or deny them. What is resisting, what is suffering?

What a liberation to see that nothing needs to be liberated.

Tao

[AWH301]

Hi Tao,
In one of the audios of Ilona with a group she said that everything is a sensation. Even thoughts are sensations, the ‘me’ is a sensation, ‘being’ is a sensation.

Can you describe to me what 'focusing on things' involves? Is this something you are doing? Are you really unclear on who/what you are? Is it not immediately and undeniably apparent?

The notion that I have some kind of control is really troubling in this investigation. There is no way present experience could be pre-determined by me, or predicted by me, and yet the assumption is made that I have control. In the depth of awareness, the me and the assumption of control appears to be a very thin veneer covering a vastness of unknown depth, either that or the unknown is totally shallow. The veneer seems to be highly energized from the depths of the unknown or from what is invisible.

I seem to be very unclear about who I am. Finding a me is just impossible. I feel like I’m going around and around in circles with it.

There is just no me. There is just this present experience appearing.

Good stuff. So again, what is it that is focusing on 'me and my world'? Really pinpoint the focuser. Describe the process that is happening here.

There is no focuser, just focusing going on. It seems odd that it’s so simple. It’s a relief.

So the dream presents an appearance of not wanting the dream to end. Is there ACTUALLY any resistance or conflict happening here? Or is the resistance just part of the imagination? If you need to, then explore deeply any feelings of conflict. Find what is resisting what. What is it EXACTLY that wants the story to continue?
What is it that wants things?

As I sit here writing, all kinds of things are happening. I can’t take any responsibility for any of it happening. It doesn’t belong to me. There is no owner. There is no one making things happen, shallow or deep. How could I have pre-figured this situation?

I think that’s all I can do for now. I’m a bit exhausted from this exploration. It’s amazing though. I’ll respond more later if I have energy this evening.

Thanks,
Allan

[AWH301]

Listening to some music. Looking who hears it. Videos along with the music, who sees it? Who thinks the images are beautiful or not. Seems like awareness right here, right now. Not distant, but immediate, and up close. Nothing has changed in my likes and dislikes. Discomfort and emotional sensations continue. The images and thought are still here. I keep looking to see if it's deep or shallow, but it doesn't seem to be either.

[AWH301]

So let's be sure, can the mind or brain actually clamp down? Is any real clamping down happening, or is this just an appearance? Is there something called mind that is trying to uphold something called 'story'? Or is this just another story?

No. It can’t clamp down on or uphold a story. It’s just another story.

You already are open to the flow of things, you can't be anything other than this. It is impossible. Nor are you resisting anything, can you resist anything? Thoughts and feelings of resistance can come and go. You can neither choose them nor resist or deny them. What is resisting, what is suffering?

Resistance is part of the story, the mirage.

I continue to use Ilona’s looking at sensation. I look at what sensation is happening (thought, feeling, vision, ‘I’ sensations). Such as with thought. When thought happens, I look for a separate person in the thought. The mind is always clear and transparent. With emotions, the emotions arise, thoughts arise with them, but the mind is still clear with no 'I'.

Allan

[Tao]

Hi Allan

No time to respond today, will get back tomorrow.

Tao

[AWH301]

ok. Thanks. No problem.
Allan

[Tao]

Hi Allan

In one of the audios of Ilona with a group she said that everything is a sensation. Even thoughts are sensations, the ‘me’ is a sensation, ‘being’ is a sensation.

What does experience say?

I seem to be very unclear about who I am. Finding a me is just impossible. I feel like I’m going around and around in circles with it.

There is just no me. There is just this present experience appearing.

What could go round in circles? Could thoughts even go round in circles?

A couple of necessary questions:

How does it feel to see that there is no 'me'? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days/weeks.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There is no focuser, just focusing going on. It seems odd that it’s so simple. It’s a relief.

What does focusing entail? Is something being focused?

As I sit here writing, all kinds of things are happening. I can’t take any responsibility for any of it happening. It doesn’t belong to me. There is no owner. There is no one making things happen, shallow or deep. How could I have pre-figured this situation?

Great that this is seen. Another necessary question so we can see where we are at with this:

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Resistance is part of the story, the mirage.

Yes it is. How about suffering?

I continue to use Ilona’s looking at sensation. I look at what sensation is happening (thought, feeling, vision, ‘I’ sensations). Such as with thought. When thought happens, I look for a separate person in the thought. The mind is always clear and transparent. With emotions, the emotions arise, thoughts arise with them, but the mind is still clear with no 'I'.

Good, so no 'me' to be found, anywhere.

From the perspective of thoughts, things can seem rather confusing, but you cannot be unclear who/what you are. Only a thought can say there is lack of clarity. You are ever present, undivided awaring/experiencing/being/knowing whatever you want to call it - THIS. There is no 'other', there is no 'me', just THIS.

Tao

[AWH301]

Hi Tao, I'm still here. I'm still going over my responses. Will get back to you tomorrow.
Thanks,
Allan

[AWH301]

Hi Tao,

What does experience say?

Direct experience says that thought is a sensation like pain or pleasure. The idea of ‘I’ is a sensation, though it is a passing experience and is not a separate me. The body is and has sensations. Awareness is simultaneous with them as they happen. The sensations can be taken to imply a ‘someone’, though there is not a one there. When I look for who is having the sensations, there is just awareness.

What could go round in circles? Could thoughts even go round in circles? A couple of necessary questions:
How does it feel to see that there is no 'me'?

The experience of mind and ‘I’ go round and round, back and forth, vacillating, struggling to know something. Since they are just labels they can’t do anything except appear. It doesn’t feel any different from before, except more open to look and see. The ‘I’ idea goes on but has no effect when looked at.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days/weeks. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I think the frustration of looking and not finding a separate self pushed, and continues to push me over. The other day I exhausted myself looking. It’s really futile so I resigned myself to see the truth of what I have heard here at LU and other places, that there is no ‘I’ and that experiences appear simultaneous with awareness. It does seem a little easier to let things flow on by, since that’s what they are doing anyway. I think opening into the depth helped to see that awareness of depth didn’t change awareness itself.

What does focusing entail? Is something being focused?

Focusing is a sensation like other sensations.

Great that this is seen. Another necessary question so we can see where we are at with this: Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

The mind, the ‘I’ in the story believes it has control, choice, intention, will. It’s part of the story. And within the story that is defended, and a lot of activity appears, to cover up the reality that there is no self. Awareness is there anyway. There’s no I to be responsible, though the mind assumes it is responsible within the story. Example: right now the story of ‘Allan’ is efforting so hard to be responsible for ‘awakening’. This is proving as frustrating as ever. When I ask myself, “is there a me in the tension? Is there a me in the sensation? Is there a me there that can be frustrated?” there’s not a one.

Good, so no 'me' to be found, anywhere. From the perspective of thoughts, things can seem rather confusing, but you cannot be unclear who/what you are. Only a thought can say there is lack of clarity. You are ever present, undivided awaring/experiencing/being/knowing whatever you want to call it - THIS. There is no 'other', there is no 'me', just THIS.

It seems that what was supposed to happen with this process is happening so to speak, though I do not have the experience of ‘no self’, I’m not sure whether that should happen or not. It’s just the noticing that whatever arises in awareness is noticed by awareness. The things in awareness aren’t things. It really is a very subtle distinction to notice this since experience is identical to awareness, without separation. I feel like I’m fooling myself.

Allan

[AWH301]

Hi Tao, I'm having a lot of frustration and confusion. I was just reading someone else's conversation on the Gate. I would like to talk a little bit about where we're going right now. Can I quote one of the other guides and ask a question about it? I feel in a very similar place to one of the other people and just want to clarify a bit what I'm doing. Thanks, Allan

[Tao]

Hi Tao, I'm having a lot of frustration and confusion. I was just reading someone else's conversation on the Gate. I would like to talk a little bit about where we're going right now. Can I quote one of the other guides and ask a question about it? I feel in a very similar place to one of the other people and just want to clarify a bit what I'm doing. Thanks, Allan

Hi Allan, yes please, quote away. Let me know where you're at.

Will reply more tomorrow.

Tao

[AWH301]

Here are the quotes taken out of context: The hardest part of this process is to get a person out of their thoughts and into a felt sense of this. (And from another portion of the conversation): ...waking up is about no longer believing thoughts...
Then from the Gate App, There are raw experiences: hearing, seeing, touching, smelling, and tasting. There are sensations in the body (hunger, thirst, or pain). This is what we refer to as direct experience. This is the level of experience of cats, dogs, birds, and newborn babies. Then there are thoughts. Thoughts layer concepts over these raw experiences.
As I understand it, going through the gate is recognition of 'no personal self'. No one is there causing or experiencing any of it. I guess I'm a bit confused about how much I should be observing. I've been attempting to observe everything, including direct experience. Is this recognition realized from seeing that there is no one there on the level of thought only, or also on the level of direct experience? And should this recognition be steady?
Thanks, Allan