The Gate

Hi Kathanna,

You are doing fine!

It seems that "knowing" there is no self should be that clear…as you said before, not a process but an instantaneous insight. (thought) I don't know how that flash of insight happens.

How that happens you cannot know. You cant do it either. Just be ready for it.
Just keep looking. As long as the notion persist there is some center, just keep looking for this socalled self as long you feel is neccassary, even if in the same time you know it doesnt exist. That is the the only thing you can do.
Where is it? Nowhere. Where is it now? Still nowhere. It must be somewhere!
And hopefully some day you will burst out in laughter: "What for heaven's sake am I doing?"

so to not believe that would be more useful because it might allow space for DE to occur.

There is nothing wrong with thoughts. The only thing is: their contents are not real. Can you see that?

Petrus schreef:
Where is the center you say you are living from?

In the mind.

You are talking about mind as a solid thing with a form and place. But what is this mind in DE?
Is there something like a mind actually? You can think of a mind, but does that make it something real?
So how you can state that is your center? Is that a thought also maybe?

Do thoughts actually stop? Or only change?

Ofcourse they dont stop or change. Why should that be so?

Arising from where? Without needing an author?

You answer those 2 yourself. Just have a look!

There is an illusion of self trying to be important, to matter. A thought of kathanna, a story and a whole "reality" that supports a "feeling" of being solid, even with evidence to the contrary. What do I do with all that stuff besides just not take it seriously ?

Just leave it be. What else could you do? Could you do anything about it? Are "you" in control here?

I say there is no self, that I can't find a location for a self, but keep acting as if the "I" is real, just as always.

If there is no self who is acting as if?
You can only watch the show. Isnt that true?
Maybe this acting will last, maybe it will go. Does it really matter?

Is the "I" unwilling to stop seeking?

"I" is just a habit in thought. And maybe it fears its own end? But any case its not real, that is for sure!

In the phase you are in the only thing to do is keep on looking.
Keep on looking if you are assuming things like the existence of a self.
In general you can state: no belief is true.
Keep on writing what you experience.

Warm regards, Petrus.

Hello,

There is nothing wrong with thoughts. The only thing is: their contents are not real. Can you see that?

Yes, it is very clear that the contents of thoughts are not real. I have heard and read about people who say that they experience thoughts disappearing…silence after liberation. I didn't know if that is a common occurrence.

You are talking about mind as a solid thing with a form and place. But what is this mind in DE?
Is there something like a mind actually? You can think of a mind, but does that make it something real?
So how you can state that is your center? Is that a thought also maybe?

I was thinking about the mind as a generator of thoughts which would make the "center" and the "story" and the feeling of being solid….all just thoughts, which if I believe them contradicts my previous statement about knowing that the contents of thoughts are not real! So if the content of thoughts cannot be believed, there can be no reality to the idea of a self.

n the phase you are in the only thing to do is keep on looking.
Keep on looking if you are assuming things like the existence of a self.
In general you can state: no belief is true.
Keep on writing what you experience.

I will keep looking.
Thank you,

Kathanna

Dear Kathanna,

I have heard and read about people who say that they experience thoughts disappearing…silence after liberation. I didn't know if that is a common occurrence.

It can happen. But it is also possible the habit will stay awhile.
There is no common occurrence here :) Anything can happen!

So if the content of thoughts cannot be believed, there can be no reality to the idea of a self.

So now you are convinced, haha?
Or still some "I" left?
Or is it the place on the wall where the painting was hanging that you still see?
Or is the aliveness (from http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/) which you give a label "I".
Look closely. What is left now?

Warm Regards, Petrus

Hi Kathanna,

How are you doing?

A befriended guide came with this pointer for you:

Look at a chair.
Do you see the chair?
Look for yourself.
Do you see a self?

Warm regards, Petrus.

Hello Petrus,

o now you are convinced, haha?
Or still some "I" left?
Or is it the place on the wall where the painting was hanging that you still see?
Or is the aliveness (from http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/) which you give a label "I".
Look closely. What is left now?

Trying to see what I am calling self, I sat in silence and watched the thoughts. It seemed that in addition to random thoughts there is a voice that is constantly narrating, commenting, judging, labeling, explaining and trying to give meaning to experience by forming it into a story. It seems a totally separate part of mind from the rest of the thoughts, That is what I am calling "self". I know that it has no substance, but it seems that if I actually "realize" that, "know" it , not just conceptually, it would no longer be there because it is obvious that it is totally unnecessary except to perpetuate the false sense of being solid and separate and a "self". It is annoying, actually! I just want to shout at it to "Please be quiet! I don't need you to interpret life when I can experience it perfectly well before you give your comments!" It is like watching a film and having someone in the seat next to you explaining what is happening so that you can't enjoy the film just as it is.

Or is the aliveness (from http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/) which you give a label "I".

I tried to see if it was "aliveness" I was calling "I". I hoped that it might be. "Aliveness" is real. How do you define aliveness? What does it feel like? Is it the sense of the energetic body with all its layers and connection to "outside" the body? It seemed that I was so focused on figuring out things mentally that I had to consciously stop and find the aliveness again. I tried to take a break from thinking about and reading and watching videos, and listening to audios about "no self" and "emptiness" and being more or less obsessed with Liberation Unleashed because it seemed I was intellectualizing too much. Mind was taking over and there were no answers there.

Look at a chair.
Do you see the chair?

Yes

Look for yourself.
Do you see a self?

No

What has been thought of as self is always shifting and changing, seen differently from moment to moment depending on what thoughts are describing it, what moods are passing through, how another sees it, what is happening to the body.

Kathanna

Hi Kathanna,

It seems a totally separate part of mind from the rest of the thoughts

So they just are thoughts, and that "it seems a totally separate part" is a thought too!
And the contents of a thought has no real connection with reality, or in other words, it is not real.

I know that it has no substance, but it seems that if I actually "realize" that, "know" it , not just conceptually, it would no longer be there

Dont try to realize that. Just see it. Is it true?


"I" is not real, just a thought. It is used in many ways and in all that ways it has no real meaning.
I am old, I am hungry, I am buddhist.
Thoughts are subtitling, labeling and claiming. No more. They cant create an I.
The word I is never used to point to something real (if it does let me know!), because "I" doesnt exist.

Let me put it differently:
In perception is there something (e.g. I ) that is perceiving and is there something perveived? Or is there only perceiving?
When thinking, is there something thinking and is there something that is being thought? Or is there only thinking?

It is annoying, actually! I just want to shout at it to "Please be quiet! I don't need you to interpret life when I can experience it perfectly well before you give your comments!" It is like watching a film and having someone in the seat next to you explaining what is happening so that you can't enjoy the film just as it is.

Annoying indeed (which is a label). A pity there is no one that can do something about it.
The someone in the seat next to you is a part of the movie. Just let him/her be. Maybe listen, maybe its interesting what he/she says, because there is no you to make him/her stop and there is nothing else to do?

What has been thought of as self is always shifting and changing

So is there something solid about it? Arent it just thoughts about something that does not really exist?

The thought of you isn’t actual you!

Warm regards, Petrus

Hi Petrus,

So they just are thoughts, and that "it seems a totally separate part" is a thought too!
And the contents of a thought has no real connection with reality, or in other words, it is not real.

Thoughts about thoughts observing and commenting on thoughts! Too busy! haha

In perception is there something (e.g. I ) that is perceiving and is there something perveived? Or is there only perceiving?
There is perceiving and the appearance of something perceived, but no perceiver.
When thinking, is there something thinking and is there something that is being thought? Or is there only thinking?
There is nothing thinking, there is a thought, but the content of the thought is not real, so there is only thinking.

A pity there is no one that can do something about it.

This made me laugh! So obvious that if there were an "i" and it was that annoyed, it would do something about it! Where is that "i" when needed! Guess it was not real all along!

So is there something solid about it? Arent it just thoughts about something that does not really exist?

No, nothing solid, just shifting and changing thoughts.

Hi Kathanna,

No, nothing solid, just shifting and changing thoughts.

I think we are at the end of our exploration here. Do you agree?
Or are there some more issues you like to address?

If not, I would like to continue with the 6 questions we ask at the end, when everything seems clear.
If you have answered those, I will show your answers to the other guides to see if they have any additional questions. If they have, I will give them to you to answer.

After that you will be invited to our 'post-gate' Facebook groups, where you could explore and discuss more if you like. The Gate is not the end, but a start. There is a whole community of others on Liberation Unleashed (on Facebook and on the forum), who have also seen through the idea of a separate self. Actually, there are several groups to join.

Warm regards, Petrus

No more specific questions at this time. I think I have a better idea now of what "seeing through the illusion of a separate self" means for the purposes of Liberation Unleashed. It is clear that the "self" is not real. it is also clear that this is only a first step. Before requesting a guide, I think I imagined that there would be total enlightenment! That's how I interpreted the words "change in perception."

Actually I'm not really sure about the reality of objects, like chairs. I know that they are not actually solid, but are they considered different from a "self" because we can actually see and touch them, or get bruises if we bump into them? But the nature of everything is ultimately empty, isn't it? ( All of this can be labeled "thought." )

Except for that, you can ask me the 6 questions.

With gratitude and affection,

Kathanna

Hi Kathanna,

Before requesting a guide, I think I imagined that there would be total enlightenment! That's how I interpreted the words "change in perception."

Ah, a hidden expectation! What exactly did you expect? Maybe there are more expectations?
Even after the gate expectations can be limitations.
To me seeing there is no I is a huge change!

Actually I'm not really sure about the reality of objects, like chairs.

All there is, is percieving. You dont know anything but what you perceive.
So what can you know more about objects than that they are percieved?

Ok, here a bonus. Maybe that can change your disappointment into a smile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydAfgSIgU_E

Warm regards, Peter

Here are the questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Oops, forgot one:

6) Anything to add?

Hi Kathannna,

To keep you informed: I am travelling to the Netherlands now.
So when you respond, it could take some time before I can show your answers to the others guides.

Regards, Petrus

Hello Petrus,

I'm sorry I was not faster with my response. It is an American holiday involving guests and lots of cooking and little private time. I hope you are enjoying your trip. There is no hurry from my side to have the answers shown to other guides.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

1) No, there is no separate "self", "me", "I" at all anywhere, in any way, shape or form and never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

2) There is bodily form with the senses that make perception possible. As very young children, before language develops, we discover our world through direct experience. Direct perception needs no separate self, but when language allows one to label each sensation and each object perceived, a split occurs between the labeler and the object. Direct perception becomes "I" see, hear, taste, feel, want, don't like….something. There is a fear of not being real and we continue to build more and more pieces of objective reality to strengthen the ego or the imagined self. We define ourselves as our jobs, religions, nationalities, hobbies, family heritage,etc. We "own" cars, houses, books, paintings. There are ideas, causes, beliefs, facts, and opinions to which we attach significance and feel that they give meaning to our individual existence. This process is reinforced by everyone around us until we forget that it was ever different. We experience ourselves as a separate being within a world of other separate individuals and objects and become the narrators of our own story, rather than really being fully in it in each moment.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

3) Knowing that there is no separate self has changed the way I relate to thoughts and the perceived world. Thoughts don't seem to have much power. Thoughts might be there with opinions about a particular action and I notice them and then act however I do knowing it wasn't really possible to do it differently and that I didn't decide anything. I guess what I feel is more at peace with what is. I feel less need to be in control and have everything together. I know now that "I" never was in charge and that there is no need to struggle. The change is subtle, but clear enough. There is just a constant present awareness impossible to ignore…like a cat wanting attention! The tendency to withdraw into the imagined self is no longer an option.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

4) I'm not sure if there was one particular thing that was the final push. Your patience with my mental gymnastics in general and your humor, making me laugh and stop taking myself seriously gradually wore out the questioning and doubt. Maybe this exchange near the end was a turning point when I complained about "a voice that is constantly narrating, commenting, judging, labeling, explaining and trying to give meaning to experience by forming it into a story... It is annoying, actually! I just want to shout at it to "Please be quiet! I don't need you to interpret life when I can experience it perfectly well before you give your comments!" It is like watching a film and having someone in the seat next to you explaining what is happening so that you can't enjoy the film just as it is."

Petrus: Annoying indeed (which is a label). A pity there is no one that can do something about it.

Kathanna: This made me laugh! So obvious that if there were an "i" and it was that annoyed, it would do something about it! Where is that "i" when needed! Guess it was not real all along!

The video "Neuroscience and Free Will" was a convincing argument. I also read the article by Gary Weber on that topic.

I actually found all of the articles very helpful. The one on Emptiness Teachings was helpful because it was from a perspective that was already familiar and helped get me out of my head and remember the heart.

There was a dynamic of being mentally obsessed with trying to "see" and having an expectation of what that meant and actually not believing that it was possible. At some point I understood more clearly what was meant by "seeing through the illusion of a separate self" and that it was possible because it was a step…not necessarily the end destination.

I feel very grateful for this experience and the kindness of my guide and all whose input was available.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

5) Decision, intention, free will, choice and control are all concepts or thoughts that are not real. They are all ways that the "self" gives itself importance by pretending that it is real and in control.

According to the article by Gary Weber, there is a very limited part of the brain that believes it makes decisions when in fact the decision is made before that part of the brain knows it.

New age gurus and self help books advocate using intention to create what you want in your life. Put a picture of the car you want on the refrigerator and look at it every day and intend that it will be yours and you will get it. I don't believe it is guaranteed! Maybe you will and maybe not but whatever happens is not controlled by you. Werner Erhard said that you can tell what your intention was by the result you get, by what happens. this sounds clever, but still implies control. Believing that one can manifest things by intention is a distraction from discovering the truth..that there is no "self" that can have control of anything.

Pre-determination vs. Free Will has been an issue central in the creation of Christian Protestant denominations. It means nothing. It is not real.

I have heard discussions about the difference between decision and choice, a decision being pre-meditated and a choice more impulsive or intuitive. A waste of breath! Both are illusion. It is clear that "I" have no control of anything. There is no "I" to do the controlling.

One example: A 19 year old acquaintance asked to see me and although I knew he was going to ask to stay with us and that he was untrustworthy in many ways and lied and manipulated and would not give anything in return, really not wanting to take this on, I found myself driving toward home with him in the car without deciding to do it.

Another example: During a therapy session with a young girl, i began to talk without thinking and what was said was totally appropriate to the situation. There was a feeling of spaciousness and aliveness and non-separation. I am clear that "I" did not do any of this.

I seem to worry less and yet I am no less responsible. I keep appointments. My paperwork is up to date in the office. At home, I cook, take the dog to the vet, do laundry, pay bills, etc.

What makes things happen? How does it all work? Ultimately, I don't know! We suffer because of clinging to the illusion of self and all that follows from that, including believing negative thoughts and acting on them resulting in more suffering. Many people who believe that the "self" is real collectively create the world that we have. "Selfishness" means lack of concern for the welfare of other people, other species, the earth itself. Seeing through the illusion allows the possibility for more caring and kindness to develop.

I am responsible for my own state of mind. I am responsible for developing complete acceptance and openness to experiencing everything without withdrawing into the "self" even though "I" don't know how to do it and have no control over whether or not it happens.

Hi Kathanna,

Thanks for your answers. I have no questions for you anymore.
I will show your answers now to the other guides.

It was a pleasure to guide you. Thank you.

Warm regards, Petrus