Hi

[Canfora]

Hi Andrei,

I see that. Life is intrinsically flowing through the body and everything around. Life is as real as it gets.

Yes, I also think so :)

Only thought. One cannot experience something that is not there. And even if one is lost in thoughts that get to create sensations inside the body, as soon as one becomes weary of his own thoughts at fault, one dis-identifies with the sensations as well.

Yes, sometimes that's easy sometimes it isn't. Some of the stories and some of the conditioning can be very sticky. There can be some "after" work to do.

After reading this I started to rethink the way in which I was analysing and self digesting the self in all his levels (the allness of everything undifferentiated, the presence reinforced by the senses, and the identification with the I-thought) and I started to see that analysing, even if useful at times, it`s not required in order to move further.

Yes, absolutely. I would say the "easiest" way to go further is by coming back to looking what is really happening here and now and seeing what is happening and what isn't happening. So, in a funny way, the way to go further is to be present here - even with intense periods of thinking. Just looking to what is going on. Doing this may need some practice...

I went to meditate to experience the "sense of self" and I noticed that when you lay in bed with all senses suspended (especially eyes closed) then there is nothing solid there. When you`re eyes wide awake you see a presence behind them focusing at what`s around. When you close your eyes, that presence starts to lose its texture and even more... it starts to move. It`s like a wave, a flow of substance which doesn`t stop until you actually put your focus on it. It`s a lot like quantum mechanics but in direct experience. So there is not even a "sense of self" until you actually focus on it and localize it somewhere.
It might sound like crazy talk but this discovery was quite ground breaking for me. I plan to do it some more.

Yes, good. Notice how the focusing and the labeling create the appearance of some-thing.

Yes all definitions, all concepts about a self should be looked at because it seems that we create the self by focusing or thinking about it. And not just through thoughts and identification with a personality, which is its shallowest level, but even by simply seeing! When you look at the self you create the self!

Exactly!

I need to exercise this some more because I don`t think I hit the rock bottom of it yet and it`s a bit freaking me out, and I really enjoy this feeling of no control, of being a drop in an ocean that can smash you on the rocks. Exciting stuff! ...which you can tell by how much I molest the punctuation exclamation mark :))

I love your enthusiasm and sense of humor!

It`s highly judgemental! The I is judging the I and finds it useless (lol). So many opinions and wishes and so much hypocrisy and arrogance at time and ignorance. The "good" thing is it doesn`t exist.
Let`s take other I`s for instance. Some might be "better", some "worse". They are all full of crap though. Some are big fat lies, some are small lies. They are all non-existent.

Yes, isn't that amazing?

Yes seeing happens just like thinking happens. There`s nothing special about seeing either. It just is. They both are.

Yesssss.... there is nothing special about all this, it's just what is happening!
At the same time it can feel like something remarkable, it's quite a paradox!

This moment is. It`s not ok just like it`s not not ok. It simply is, without adjectives.
Nothing is missing because it doesn`t seem to be any sort of improvements to be had either. There is no going up or down, left or right. Every improvement life has to offer can only be experienced with the body senses. However they don`t go deeper than the flesh, hence they don`t matter. If instead of freezing my ass off in Romania I`d be sunbathing on a beach in Greece, still that would make no difference. Body would feel better. The I might appear as well feeling good about itself, about its wonderful personality constructs and morals and all that crap. But nothing would affect the simple fact that life is a flow which has no end.
I start to get the hang of this liberation :)

Yes, I can see that you're getting the hang of it :)

Thinking happens. Thoughts flow. If I don`t impede the flow of thoughts then some interesting facts can come to light. They might be of some use in this process of liberation as well.
But to answer your questions: There is no "I" thinking these thoughts. They just happen.
I can`t control them. I can obstruct them, well, the "I" can obstruct them but that would make thinking less effective. It`s like in arts. when you write a poem, it`s not a poet doing it. The poem writes itself. A good artist is the one that lets his art unfold itself. The paradox is that a good artist is one that doesn`t try to create art but simply disappears from the process altogether.
Who or what does the thinking? I can`t see. (And I obviously can`t think it either). All I see is a flow.
I think that is the whole secret of life. Everything is flowing. It`s all a wave inside an ocean.

Very nicely said.

If I try to point to a self then a self will be "created" so I can point at.

This is very good seeing, I never thought about this angle. Nice and true.

I start to see why some call this liberation/spiritual "enlightenment" as nothing than a cosmic joke. You create the world by searching for it. It`s the searching that creates things to search for.

A big YES to all of these!

As to that observer-observing-observed exercise. Remember I said I see the observer and observed but not the process of observing?
Well because I was trying to use observing to observe itself, use the seeing to see the seeing. Pretty dumb.
I can see now that observing creates both the observer and the observed. Observing is, independent of an observer.

Yes, all just IS. Now. Here. This whatever... :)
Even the before and the after and all the possibilities of what this Is can be.

I think I`m getting there but please talk to me some more, give me more exercises, anything you want. I need to see if there`s anything left hiding in the shades, anything I still cling to.

Ok - I will ask you some questions below for further exploration.

Also thank you for all your help. You`re amazingly good at this really! You really know what to ask, when to ask, and what to point at for things to start moving. I cannot thank you enough! :)

Thank you for your kind words, Andrei!

I like this set of questions, they can help bring to the surface what isn't clear yet. Take your time answering them from your experience of this moment - no need to rush - and tell me what you see, please:

Have you been able to find, a ‘you’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a you that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a you that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a you who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘you’?

Is there a you ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘you’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate you?

[Andrei]

Hi Sandra,

If I try to point to a self then a self will be "created" so I can point at.

This is very good seeing, I never thought about this angle. Nice and true.

It might sound like a figure of speech but it ringed true to me at the time I observed it and it still makes sense. As soon as I notice identification happening or even simply focusing on an object or a thought, I remember, sometimes instantly, that I create that thing by simply seeing/thinking about it, which is enough to render it impotent.
After thinking it first time I remembered this is exactly what quantum science is saying so it was nice to experience that first hand, just as a proof I was not full of it. Which I usually am, but not in this case lol.

Have you been able to find, a ‘you’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

I can find plenty of "me`s" when I look for them. I create all the "me`s" I feel like, some by thinking, by following a logical process, others by simply observing and seeing. As soon as the looking for "me`s" stop, "me`s" disappear like they never existed.

Not only there is no self or "sense of self" or whatever but I start to have more and more doubts (and proofs) of the existance of solid matter which means this reality we see around starts to be real only when we create it by looking at it and as soon as we stop doing that it disappears back in the mass of undifferentiated nothingness.
You might as well replace "if a tree falls in a forest and NOBODY is there to hear it, does it make a sound?" with "if a tree falls in a forest and there is SOMEBODY there to hear it, does it make a sound?". For me in both cases the answer would be no.

I suddenly felt a yearning for watching Matrix again lol.

Have you been able to find...
a you that is the doer, or can control what happens?

No, there is no "me" whatsoever.
However your question gave birth to another. Who gives the order to look, think or focus about or for something?
I read your words to look for a self and for a doer. Immediately "I" started to focus on the existance of possible selves. Why? And what did that?
I guess it`s probably some sort of cognitive process, just like the one that sees letters and figures out the word they create.
I`m not that far down the rabbit hole to figure out how the organism functions. Neither it is important at this stage I guess.

Have you been able to find...
a you that ‘makes’ decisions?
Or a you who ‘does the thinking’?

Decisions are being made. That`s the short answer.
There is no self making decisions. I notice that some decisions involve thinking. However there is no "me" doing the thinking either.
I`ll get back to that example about creating art. A true artist is the one who does not get involved in the actual art making. He`s more like a channel for a higher intelligence to express itself.
Same in regard with decisions and thinking. If a self does not get involved trying to hijack decisions and thinking then they have a bigger chance to come up with something worthy.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

That`s a very good definition for the word "body" really.
And it just reinforces what I said about the matter not really being there. It`s just a flow of substance which when observed "falls" in place. When you sense (touch) the desk you immediately become aware of the texture of the wood and the sensations inside your hand. If you look at the desk and the hand you can start giving it shape and color and all that. Basically you start to build reallity all around you. Matrix FTW! :D

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘you’?

I`m not sure I understood your question so please tell me if I went in a wrong direction.
The body senses have nothing to do with the "me" as in the I-thought. They simply send information back to the brain... but only when there`s FOCUSING happening on the object of their action. (Here I can use as example what I said above about the hand touching the desk and about adding to that experience involving seeing which gives more information about shape or color)

You know I just realise something by writing the above. The 5 senses don`t just gather information and use it on the spot. They send the information back to the brain. The brain processes the information and starts creating a mental picture with it. My god, this is some heavy stuff! We don`t even create reality, our brain simply creates a pathetic image, a second rated movie of what goes on ...somewhere. And then it keeps playing that movie on the screen of our minds. And then... I`m not even sure how to write this down because there`s no words to discribe this stuff... there`s some sort of "things" that see the movie like it was projected in a cinema hall and call it reality.
It`s very possible that we, those "things", are not actually moving or going to work or going hiking in the mountains or swimming in the sea. We are force fed sensations through our 5 senses that create a movie inside our head. This is Matrix 100%. Remember those fields of humans bread by machines for energy? It was the same there. Those peoples were laying there in their cages being cryogenically frozen and where being fed "reality" (which was actually the Matrix) on the screen of their brains, imagining they are doing al that stuff when they were nothing but food for machines lol.

And the more I think about the more it starts to make sense. Why would this "thing" that we are travel to the mountains when he can simply see, touch, smell, hear and taste the mountains in the back of his head? I mean dreaming does seems real when we`re actually doing it right? Even if we`re cosily tucked in bed when all that stuff happens.
So I`m just going to stop thinking about it because this simply takes away all the pleasure in life lol.

Is there a you ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No, not in the least, and I start to see that more and more clear.
Just because all the information "I" gather through "my" senses go in "one" place that seems to be located somewhere inside "my" "body" that doesn`t mean this whole "thing" had an existance of its own separate from the existance of others.
What if you`d somehow be able to connect your brain to the 5 senses of another person? (and i`m not sure if science didn`t do this already, they might have had) Then you`d be able to "be" the other person. What happens to that other person for the time being? Do they just press PAUSE on the movie of life? Do they go back to "undifferentiated nothingness"? Nobody can say. well I can`t at least.

As to separation, because this is a pretty big topic, there is not enough evidence that it exists. We perceive reality through the 5 senses (let`s leave the theory that we create reality for now and lets suppose there is a reality out there). The senses "see" another person and give it shape, color, properties, whatever. That`s all. Then thinking comes and start labeling: "That person is like this. The other person is different". Because that "mind construct" we call a person seem to move, and talk and act according to a different set of rules, then we think its a separate being. But everything takes place in the head. It`s just thinking. Separation seems very very real until you start to really look for what is it that creates separation and you notice there`s nothing there.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘you’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

No doubt whatsoever.

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate you?

Doubts no. There is still strong conditioning. I`m still inclined to feel different or judge another person when I see it, to label it one way or another. But then I take a step back and realize "it`s all in my head". I guess it takes time :)


If you have any other questions, no matter how difficult or weird or whatever please shoot. In some cases even if I was not on topic, it happened that I got a glimpse of something else that needed dispelling.
Thank you again for all your help! :)

Andrei

[Canfora]

Hi Andrei!

It was a pleasure reading your answers, even the ones in wich you tried to make sense of This (I love the Matrix movie!) :)

Regarding the strong conditioning... yes, it's the same here. I suppose that that can be a life's work.

I have the impression that what you need now is to discuss these kind of subjects with other LUers (and me, of course ;) ) in the groups that LU has on FB for aftercare, support and for sharing experiences and views.

If there is something you still want to address with me about the absence of a self, please do.

If you feel that more guidance on the topic of the separate self isn't needed, please answer the LU final standart questions below - just avoid theorizing and answer only from what you see happening in your experience here and now.

If you decide to go with the questions, take your time with them. As always, there is no need to rush:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Andrei]

Hi Sandra,

Regarding the strong conditioning... yes, it's the same here. I suppose that that can be a life's work.

I have the impression that what you need now is to discuss these kind of subjects with other LUers (and me, of course ;) ) in the groups that LU has on FB for aftercare, support and for sharing experiences and views.

I would like that. Indeed it looks like even if breaking through the gate is a one time deal, there`s this continuous process of dis-identifying and getting used with this new situation. Fortunately the old angst and tension to become "somebody" (be it "enlightened" in this case) is gone.

If you feel that more guidance on the topic of the separate self isn't needed, please answer the LU final standart questions below - just avoid theorizing and answer only from what you see happening in your experience here and now.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. Not as a thought. Not as a state of mind either. Can`t find any sort of separate self. I start to find it hard to even see the body as separate from every other thing made of matter as well.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Im not going to be accurate in my explanation. It is a process but it is messy. I like to write clean and tidy computer code when I create web-sites, in case something happens, to know where the bug is in a few moments. This whole process of "falling in a self" is more like some malware software that is growing and engulfing more and more free space and creating bugs and burning the hardware lol.
There are two major factors of identification I can see, one is at the thought level and the other is some sort of a state (of mind).

The first and most shallowest level is the I-thought. It`s composed of words or images that create the Andrei-concept. Whenever some new situation appears that can affect this concept in any way or form then the I-thought takes charge and identification is created. It can be a thought or a bodily sensation.
In time I got pretty good at noticing identification and stopping it as soon as it happened. I started this 2-3 years ago when I became accustomed with non-duality and science of the mind works. So I had it pretty easy now because I was wearing my thoughts pretty loose prior to discovering Liberation Unleashed.

The other identification happening was where I was stuck before finding this forum and the book. It`s what`s beyond the thoughts. It`s that presence, that witnessing, that observing of thoughts and life and situation. It`s also called "I am" or the lucid mind by some.
I was trying to take it analytical, to reach "liberation" by thinking my way through and breach through all confinement. The problem is that a thought based method cannot make a breach through something which is ultimately the mind.
Even by "seeing" or "looking" at it you`re simply going in circles and reinforce this presence.
That evening, a few days ago, when I went to bed and started that some-sort-of-meditating and I suspended the 5 senses, I noticed this presence starting to loosen up. It was not a block anymore. Because before it really felt like a wall of some sort.
Withouth the reinforcing of the senses it turned into a movement, a wave of substance (of some sort).The block of presence became a wave of nothing, just matter drifting into space. Now looking back I realize that happened when I gave away all control and allowed myself to really be nothing, because this would have been impossible let`s say 10 years ago when I was flirting with bullshit like ghosting or astral projection lol. Every time I was trying to do that I felt fear of leaving the body, the confinement of the Andrei-concept.
Now after years of loosening up it became very easy, almost natural to simply disappear.
Anyway long story short, this "presence" is nothing more than the focusing and the 5 senses and this feeling of maintaining control. Once those are suspended, the presence is gone.
Of course the thoughts about the self and this senses reinforced state of mind keep reappearing. However now identification seldomly happens and when it does it`s short lived.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The angst and the feeling of dissatisfaction are gone. The desire to become "somebody" is gone. Some of the fear is gone. Sometimes I still feel fear as a bodily sensation but that is just normal. After all, thoughts and sensations are going to happen if I like it or not.
I feel a lot lighter and peacefull and thats pretty much the whole change I could see. Unfortunately no winning the lottery or living in the playboy mansion lol.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It`s that losing of "myself" in nothingness, that form of meditation I entered a few nights ago which I explained above.
That was triggered by something you told me:
"We can dance around concepts and definitions for a long time. It doesn't matter does it? Just look to the way you think about things and ask yourself if what you think about what you are is pointing to a real separate you, an entity, a separated person. [...] Regarding your question I would say that all the definitions about a self can and should be looked at."
Back then I was stuck in all that "sense of self", "I am", "Witness" thingie. No matter how much I thought about it and analyzed it, or even look for it, there was no going further. Afterwards I realized that this "presence" is simply created by focusing, analyzing and looking for it. When you look for the self you create the self. That because the self doesnt exist of course. Well done Captain Obvious! lol

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decision: I don`t know who does it. I might know how it`s done.
About who does it, it`s obviously not an "I" that does it. A decision can be the result of thinking and that can involve the I-thought as well. But that I-thought does`t create thoughts. The I-thought its more like malware that infests some of the thoughts with its identification.
So a decision can be made trough the thinking process or it can simply be made by some sort of intelligence that governs the body and ultimately life. For instance jumping out of the way from a speeding vehicle. It involves the bodily senses here more than the thinking process. Again there is no "I" that decides.

Intention: Seems a bit like decision. Decision is ultimately independent of a self. Intention can be the opposite. In order to intend to do something or for something to happen then you`ll need to use a self, or so I figure. Definitely intention has more to do with self than decision. Decisions happen. Intentions can be simply dreaming. Intentions make use of the thinking process, hence the possibility of being hijacked by an "I". Or maybe I`m a bit lost in semantics.

Free will: There is no such thing. Free will seems to be dependent on the existance of a self. Even if you "will" a cup of tea over a cup of coffee, the decision depends on factors external to the existence of a self, in this instance whether your body feels like having something stronger or healthier. Not even going to get into planning for the future or the moment of your own death.

Choice: Is a lot like decision. It can simply happen or it can be the result of thinking. Thinking, which can be infected (by the lack of a better term) by identification with a self.

Control: There seems to be none. Control seems to embody thoughts and sensations, many of which representing identification with a self. There is no control over what is going to happen next though. I might get killed by a flying piano in the next 5 minutes (I know I am inside but weirder shit happened lol)

You know if you ask me the same question tomorrow I might give different answers. In the end all these words are concepts and they can mean different things to different people or even to the same person but in different times of day lol.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

I don`t know what makes things happen. I know it`s not some "I". I suspect it`s a higher form of intelligence that governs life as a whole. I don`t know it "personally" though. We are not drinking buddies.
So from my point of view, which is very limited, things simply happen.

What are you responsible for?

Responsibility is a very loose concept. I don`t seem to be responsible for anything. If you take caring about your body, or other people, or the environment, these are all choices. Responsibility seem to ask for an "I" to be responsible but there is none. From some point of view responsibility is more like a belief, like, "you need to feel responsible for your actions because karma", or "because you`re a moral person". In the end it is just a word with a lot of meanings.

6) Anything to add?

I would like to thank you very much for all your help. You really are good at this and know what to say when to say. You "hit" me at the right times.
I would also like to thank Vivien for introducing me to this forum and to Ilona and Elena for writing that book, which is very good, concisely written and easy to understand. And I only read like half of it!
I`m going to stop here because I don`t want to make it sound like I`ve just won an Oscar lol.
Simply thank you! :)

Andrei

[Canfora]

Hi Andrei!

Some questions from other guide:

Can a thought be chosen?

Is a thought ever known before it occurs?

Is there a self having thoughts?

[Andrei]

Hi Sandra,

No, to all of those questions.


Andrei

[Canfora]

Andrei, we have no more questions for you, welcome to the other side of the gateless gate!
It was a joy being your guide, thank you. I will say hi in FBland!