Looking for a guide to explore the changes of life

[Ingen]

So many thoughts!

Do you have any control about which thoughts show up? Can you fabricate a thought? Reject a thought? Or is the rejection just another thought?

[adam_brunt]

Do you have any control about which thoughts show up? Can you fabricate a thought? Reject a thought? Or is the rejection just another thought?

A thought comes up and then there's the labeling oh i thought that or a felt sensation of going towards the thought if it is useful or away from it if it is not useful.

I sense there is a natural tendency in people that generates kinder more loving thoughts and a tendency in some people to generate negative harmful thoughts. I mean isn't there a natural base "personality" that makes each person appear slightly different or very different from each other? Or is that the appearance of their projected and believed in thoughts about themselves manifesting?

Before the thought we don't have a clue what's about to happen and then it shows up on its own.

[Ingen]

"Or is that the appearance of their projected and believed in thoughts about themselves manifesting?"
Or is it your projected and believed thoughts talking about "other people"?
What is your direct experience of them?

[adam_brunt]

"Or is that the appearance of their projected and believed in thoughts about themselves manifesting?"
Or is it your projected and believed thoughts talking about "other people"?
What is your direct experience of them?

That is my thoughts about other people, but also myself!

My direct experience is that everything is a concept and we are not in control we can only feel guided by a sense to examine limitations. I have felt what I really am and it shines a light on what was not clear before. There is just space in which awareness appears. The space is prior to any thought and can not be labeled.

[Ingen]

My direct experience is that everything is a concept

I don't understand that. How are you experiencing concepts with your senses?

and we are not in control we can only feel guided by a sense to examine limitations.

We are not in control - yes. The rest of the sentence is not clear to me. What is guiding us?

I have felt what I really am and it shines a light on what was not clear before.

Sounds good. What about now?

There is just space in which awareness appears. The space is prior to any thought and can not be labeled.

No colors? No sounds? No letters on the screen?

I don't want to diminish your experience. Ultimately I agree. But

Thought thinks about the ways that you have become a better person as if thought had something to do with it.

you do consider yourself a person?
You wrote at the beginning: "Maybe what I am interested in exploring falls outside the parameters of this forum, but I am very interested in the varieties of spiritual experience."
What we are pointing to here is the non-existence of a separate self. I don't consider that particularly spiritual. It is certainly not a spiritual experience, it is just ordinary life. Your experiences that you "fall away" sounds good. But are you a person at the times when everything is "normal"?

[adam_brunt]

My direct experience is that everything is a concept



I don't understand that. How are you experiencing concepts with your senses?

I mean in my direct experience I can see/sense/watch concepts form and appear. Does that sound better? My explanation was bad, sorry.

and we are not in control we can only feel guided by a sense to examine limitations.



We are not in control - yes. The rest of the sentence is not clear to me. What is guiding us?

I am saying that our sense of living within the limited boundaries of thought and identity can shift to a movement where we explore those limitations. How else can we be guided to explore the self and the "I am" ? That is what I mean.

I have felt what I really am and it shines a light on what was not clear before.



Sounds good. What about now?

I feel it right now...and now...and now.

Thought thinks about the ways that you have become a better person as if thought had something to do with it.

I don't want to diminish your experience.Ultimately I agree. But
you do consider yourself a person?

Yes I am a person, but person is a concept, so I would not believe it any more than a pointer for the convenience of communication.

It is certainly not a spiritual experience, it is just ordinary life. Your experiences that you "fall away" sounds good. But are you a person at the times when everything is "normal"?

I see that labeling something a spiritual experience is part of the labeling machine and that we are simply discussing a natural state that anyone can see for themselves.

[adam_brunt]

Last night during my dreams there was this very strong feeling of not being a person with a defined center of identity. It felt like I completely disappeared and there was no me with any thoughts. It was like I had a direct experience of clarity and truth while I was dreaming. I woke up feeling very clear and calm. My anxiety has been less all day and I feel really good about what we have been discussing.

[Ingen]

I mean in my direct experience I can see/sense/watch concepts form and appear.

There are different opinions in different teachings if what is appearing is a concept to start with. I'm not sure a sound is a concept before it gets identified by thought as a sound emanating from an imagined source. By then it certainly has turned to a concept. Try to listen closely to sound, without thinking. Is there any indication about where the sound is located and what it means?

One thing I'd like you to look at: Is there an I, a "witness" separate from sensations? Is there a thought or sensation showing up which then gets "read" by awareness/witness/I?
(Look for yourself, don't repeat what you have learned from others).

I am saying that our sense of living within the limited boundaries of thought and identity can shift to a movement where we explore those limitations. How else can we be guided to explore the self and the "I am" ?

I don't know how to explore the "I am". Sounds like a spiritual teaching. Leave that out for the time being and look only in your own direct experience.
I'm all for exploring! Where are the "limited boundaries" you are talking about? Are there boundaries right now?

Yes I am a person, but person is a concept, so I would not believe it any more than a pointer for the convenience of communication.

So you are not a person?

I see that labeling something a spiritual experience is part of the labeling machine and that we are simply discussing a natural state that anyone can see for themselves.

I am actually not talking about a state at all. Just normal everyday life. Is there a self? Has there ever been?

My anxiety has been less all day and I feel really good about what we have been discussing.

Good!!!
If it shows up again – would you try to not push it away? Look at it with curiosity instead, if that is possible. What does it want to protect? Does the "you" that it wants to protect even exist?

[adam_brunt]

There are different opinions in different teachings if what is appearing is a concept to start with. I'm not sure a sound is a concept before it gets identified by thought as a sound emanating from an imagined source. By then it certainly has turned to a concept. Try to listen closely to sound, without thinking. Is there any indication about where the sound is located and what it means?

The concept comes after the identification. I see this process and action takes place. It used to take place very often at a different time in my life.

Listening closely to sound there is just sound. The thinking weaves it into a scaffolding of time and qualification.

One thing I'd like you to look at: Is there an I, a "witness" separate from sensations? Is there a thought or sensation showing up which then gets "read" by awareness/witness/I?
(Look for yourself, don't repeat what you have learned from others

In direct observation I can not really say what thinking even is. There are sensations but it feels like they are not happening to anyone in the body.

I don't know how to explore the "I am". Sounds like a spiritual teaching. Leave that out for the time being and look only in your own direct experience.
I'm all for exploring! Where are the "limited boundaries" you are talking about? Are there boundaries right now?

That "I am" slipped in from too much repeating of others words without my direct experience. Limited boundaries are the thoughts and limits that thoughts place on living.

I can not positively say that I am a "person".

I am actually not talking about a state at all. Just normal everyday life. Is there a self? Has there ever been?

John Wheeler refers to a natural state, even has a book titled Return to the Natural State, and since I was guided by him to begin with I tend to use it. But state sounds unchanging and rigid now to me.

If it shows up again – would you try to not push it away? Look at it with curiosity instead, if that is possible. What does it want to protect? Does the "you" that it wants to protect even exist?

The best way to respond to anxiety and stress for many is to let it come up and remember that body is trying to protect you but that everything is fine. The anxiety can show you what you dont expect to see, which can be a gift if one is willing to stay with it and be curious. It wants to protect a body from fear, uncertainty, and death.

[Ingen]

I am actually not talking about a state at all. Just normal everyday life. Is there a self? Has there ever been?

John Wheeler refers to a natural state, even has a book titled Return to the Natural State, and since I was guided by him to begin with I tend to use it. But state sounds unchanging and rigid now to me.

What if you look in direct experience?I am sure Johen Wheeler is a great guy and his book is good, but forget him for a second. And then answer the question again. Is there a self in normal everyday life? Let's say you're late for work and you don't find a parking space. Is there a self then? Who or what is cursing?

The best way to respond to anxiety and stress for many is to let it come up and remember that body is trying to protect you but that everything is fine.

This is interesting, but I want you to look who or what is "having feelings".

[adam_brunt]

What if you look in direct experience?I am sure John Wheeler is a great guy and his book is good, but forget him for a second. And then answer the question again. Is there a self in normal everyday life? Let's say you're late for work and you don't find a parking space. Is there a self then? Who or what is cursing?

There is a unique expression of life, but no self.
If you are cursing, it is because you are thinking about how late you are and thinking about the imagined results of your being late. But, it's not happening to a self.

The best way to respond to anxiety and stress for many is to let it come up and remember that body is trying to protect you but that everything is fine.



This is interesting, but I want you to look who or what is "having feelings".

No one is having feelings. Feelings come, then feelings go. Only thought says,"Ok now everything is Ok and back to normal."

[Ingen]

Ok, Adam. You give the "right" answers – "there is no one, there is only a unique expression of life" etc.

Anyhow, I don't really get a feel if you have or haven't seen this. This can have many reasons. It could be that you haven't looked, because you think that you have already had all the insight that is possible. Or you already had all the insights possible before we started talking.

Is anything missing? Is there something you want to explore more?

[adam_brunt]

Ingen,

Thank you for the help with the guiding! I have read your message and I will get back to you soon with any questions after I sit with things for a couple of days.

Sorry if my writing has not been very clear. I have been keeping it simple and knew where I was stuck. As I shared in my first message, I emailed with John Wheeler about 2 years ago and went over a lot of stuff with him. I knew that may never be an end to anything and realized that identity and questions could pop up for me to look at. So, when I came here to this forum, I had a good idea what was happening, but I needed help having them pointed out by someone else. For me I need that outside perspective to say "hey, look... look look at that!"

I am definitely seeing things differently. Everything is the same but different. Everything is happening with an ease and gentle way of acceptance you could say.

When I emailed with John it took several rounds, so each time I started from the beginning even though I had already been at a "beginning previously". I think there are over a 100 email messages from those conversations. I have saved them and read them now and then, but I became interested in exploring the questions and thoughts that came up again. I knew something wasn't clear. Luckily, there is a really amazing community happening at LU. I can't believe the level of assistance provided. It's been a huge help.

[Ingen]

Adam, you're welcome. If you think you are ready, I can give you the so-called "confirmation questions" that you can answer to get a clearer picture what more to look at, (or not). Your answers are going to be discussed in the guide group, which can give you some valuable feedback as well.

[adam_brunt]

Thanks Ingen. Please send the questions my way.