Introduction

[Kamalavajri]

Hi Kamalavajri,

What is this something that tries to control events? Like .... going somewhere - traffic jam - thoughts and feelings come in re being late. Is there another route? Is the outside lane moving faster? Wanting to take action to avoid being late. Is this not something trying to control events? Sometimes the evasive action works, sometimes all that results is states of anxiety. Am aware that only going somewhere and traffic jam are direct experience - the rest is thought led.

So:
- observable situation: traffic jam
- thoughts: being late, another route, outside lane moving faster, wanting to take action to avoid being late.
We’ve observed previously that thoughts can’t control anything.
Are thoughts capable of “trying” to control events?
Isn’t this giving thoughts an agency?
Can agency appear and disappear according to various situations?

Sense of awareness - when not asleep or being absent minded, there is a being present while an experience is happening e.g. awareness of smell, awareness of cold.

Thank you. I see what you mean now.

All the best
Dridhamati

No. Thoughts aren't capable of controlling events. So they don't always need to be taken seriously or acted upon! Energy bubbling - excitement here. Many thanks, Kamalavajri

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

No. Thoughts aren't capable of controlling events. So they don't always need to be taken seriously or acted upon!

Yes, well observed. Although the very idea that thoughts are actually acted upon is itself a delusion.

Try this exercise:
- stand up in a room, allowing for space around you. Relax the body, arms down.
- now “will the left arm to rise”.
- try it with the right arm.
Repeat several times. What happens?

Here is an interesting video about the concept of ‘acting upon a thought’ aka ‘free will’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM

Energy bubbling - excitement here.

Care to say more?

All the best
Dridhamati[/quote]

[Kamalavajri]

Hi Kamalavajri,

No. Thoughts aren't capable of controlling events. So they don't always need to be taken seriously or acted upon!

Yes, well observed. Although the very idea that thoughts are actually acted upon is itself a delusion.

Try this exercise:
- stand up in a room, allowing for space around you. Relax the body, arms down.
- now “will the left arm to rise”.
- try it with the right arm.
Repeat several times. What happens?

Here is an interesting video about the concept of ‘acting upon a thought’ aka ‘free will’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM

Energy bubbling - excitement here.

Care to say more?

Exercise - my arms did not move as a result of being told to

Video clip - boggling! I was going to say the thought arrives that I must do some shopping - shopping happens, so surely this is a thought being acted upon. According to the video the decision arrived before being thought. What's going on then?!

Energy bubbling/excitement - Sensations/feelings were arriving in response to realizing how much credence has been given to thoughts unnecessarily. Maybe also in response to all that is being revealed by Direct Pointing. Passing though, because today sensations and feelings are different - tireder/rawer.

Many thanks, Kamalavajri






All the best
Dridhamati

[/quote]

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Exercise - my arms did not move as a result of being told to

Yep, oops. So, the question again:
Are “you” in charge, in control?

Video clip - boggling! I was going to say the thought arrives that I must do some shopping - shopping happens, so surely this is a thought being acted upon. According to the video the decision arrived before being thought. What's going on then?!

A very good question. One for which I have no answer.
Buddhist tradition offers one explanation: conditioned co-production (Pratītyasamutpāda -for other readers to search on.)
The preference here is to attach to no specific dogma. “I don’t know” is the only honest answer I can offer you at this time.
All I can suggest is: look closely in DE at every actions that happen at any given time. Whether there was agreement with any one action, or not, it still happened regardless.
Was an “I”, a controlling “self” observed in charge of any of these actions?

Remember the arm exercise: the thought “’I’ will raise ‘MY’ arm.” can be as self-referencial as it can, it does not mean the arm will rise.
The great delusion is to believe that the thought “I”, is a real entity causing actions.

Energy bubbling/excitement - Sensations/feelings were arriving in response to realizing how much credence has been given to thoughts unnecessarily. Maybe also in response to all that is being revealed by Direct Pointing. Passing though, because today sensations and feelings are different - tireder/rawer.

Aha. Yes. When this [realizing how much credence has been given to thoughts unnecessarily] is seen all sorts of emotions can arise. Good on you for observing them.

Here are a few more questions for you:

1. Is the “body” just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

2. Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this “self”?

3. Is there a “self” ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Kamalavajri]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Exercise - my arms did not move as a result of being told to

Yep, oops. So, the question again:
Are “you” in charge, in control?

Video clip - boggling! I was going to say the thought arrives that I must do some shopping - shopping happens, so surely this is a thought being acted upon. According to the video the decision arrived before being thought. What's going on then?!

A very good question. One for which I have no answer.
Buddhist tradition offers one explanation: conditioned co-production (Pratītyasamutpāda -for other readers to search on.)
The preference here is to attach to no specific dogma. “I don’t know” is the only honest answer I can offer you at this time.
All I can suggest is: look closely in DE at every actions that happen at any given time. Whether there was agreement with any one action, or not, it still happened regardless.
Was an “I”, a controlling “self” observed in charge of any of these actions?

Remember the arm exercise: the thought “’I’ will raise ‘MY’ arm.” can be as self-referencial as it can, it does not mean the arm will rise.
The great delusion is to believe that the thought “I”, is a real entity causing actions.

Energy bubbling/excitement - Sensations/feelings were arriving in response to realizing how much credence has been given to thoughts unnecessarily. Maybe also in response to all that is being revealed by Direct Pointing. Passing though, because today sensations and feelings are different - tireder/rawer.

Aha. Yes. When this [realizing how much credence has been given to thoughts unnecessarily] is seen all sorts of emotions can arise. Good on you for observing them.

Here are a few more questions for you:

1. Is the “body” just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

2. Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this “self”?

3. Is there a “self” ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

All the best
Dridhamati

Am "I" in charge/control? It is dawning that - No. Today "Kamalavajri" had a day at home. Activity just happened. It couldn't have been predicted at the start of the day what would happen, or which order events would proceed. Would like to observe this some more.

Yes, agreed - Pratityasamutpada. What emerges from the video is that the whole thing is a mystery and hard to fathom. It seems mad now to think that there is an autonomous "self" operating somehow separate from this whole web of conditions. But decisions/choices do happen, even without an agent/self (along the lines that sensations arise and fall)? e.g. one day is quiet, one day is full of activity.

1. Body - would it also be a label to include joints and muscles etc for functions such as movement? Agreed it is a label for a complex of those sorts of conditions.

2. The 5 body senses are a given. They aren't brought into being by a "self" and experience just happens through them.

3. The exercise with sound showed just a continuum of experience rather than "in here" and "out there". With eyes closed, it is hard to sense a definite boundary for the body.

Thank you, Kamalavajri

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Am "I" in charge/control? It is dawning that - No. Today "Kamalavajri" had a day at home. Activity just happened. It couldn't have been predicted at the start of the day what would happen, or which order events would proceed. Would like to observe this some more.

Please do. And please report and ask questions if needed.

Yes, agreed - Pratityasamutpada. What emerges from the video is that the whole thing is a mystery and hard to fathom. It seems mad now to think that there is an autonomous "self" operating somehow separate from this whole web of conditions. But decisions/choices do happen, even without an agent/self (along the lines that sensations arise and fall)? e.g. one day is quiet, one day is full of activity.

Indeed.
A famous sage once said:
“Let these three expressions:
‘I do not have, I do not understand, I do not know’
be repeated over and over again.
That is the heart of my advice.”
(Padmasambhava, Advice to the Revealers of Treasures -for other readers to search on.)
The sage had nailed it right on the head.

1. Body - would it also be a label to include joints and muscles etc for functions such as movement? Agreed it is a label for a complex of those sorts of conditions.
2. The 5 body senses are a given. They aren't brought into being by a "self" and experience just happens through them.
3. The exercise with sound showed just a continuum of experience rather than "in here" and "out there". With eyes closed, it is hard to sense a definite boundary for the body.

Thank you for these answers.

And now another two questions:
1. Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases presented in the previous questions, the “self” is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
2. Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of a “separate self”?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Kamalavajri]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Am "I" in charge/control? It is dawning that - No. Today "Kamalavajri" had a day at home. Activity just happened. It couldn't have been predicted at the start of the day what would happen, or which order events would proceed. Would like to observe this some more.

Please do. And please report and ask questions if needed.

Yes, agreed - Pratityasamutpada. What emerges from the video is that the whole thing is a mystery and hard to fathom. It seems mad now to think that there is an autonomous "self" operating somehow separate from this whole web of conditions. But decisions/choices do happen, even without an agent/self (along the lines that sensations arise and fall)? e.g. one day is quiet, one day is full of activity.

Indeed.
A famous sage once said:
“Let these three expressions:
‘I do not have, I do not understand, I do not know’
be repeated over and over again.
That is the heart of my advice.”
(Padmasambhava, Advice to the Revealers of Treasures -for other readers to search on.)
The sage had nailed it right on the head.

1. Body - would it also be a label to include joints and muscles etc for functions such as movement? Agreed it is a label for a complex of those sorts of conditions.
2. The 5 body senses are a given. They aren't brought into being by a "self" and experience just happens through them.
3. The exercise with sound showed just a continuum of experience rather than "in here" and "out there". With eyes closed, it is hard to sense a definite boundary for the body.

Thank you for these answers.

And now another two questions:
1. Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases presented in the previous questions, the “self” is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
2. Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of a “separate self”?

All the best
Dridhamati

Hi there. The computer has just crashed, so this is being typed in the library. Therefore there is less flexibility to respond. I will ponder the questions - want to take time over them to be sure. Kamalavajri

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

No problems. Best wishes to the computer!

All the best
Dridhamati

[Kamalavajri]

Hi Kamalavajri,

No problems. Best wishes to the computer!

All the best
Dridhamati

Just as decisions/choices happen without a "self" or agent, influence/contributions (helpful or unhelpful) happen as part of pratityasamutpada? Not sure what the question is. Somethng about intention having an effect. Possibly all that's being said here is that pratityasamutpada is functioning!
The reply will possibly be - I do not have, I do not understand, I do not know or to quote a different Tibetan text (lots of Dharma popping up!):

Dharma wondrous strange!
Profoundest mystery of the Pefect ones
Within the birthless all things take their birth
Yet in that birth, nothing is borne.

Can't post until Monday now. With metta and appreciation, Kamalavajri

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Dharma wondrous strange!
Profoundest mystery of the Pefect ones
Within the birthless all things take their birth
Yet in that birth, nothing is borne.

Thank you for that.
Actually the section with the quote from Padmasambhava did not contain any question.

The questions were at the end:
1. Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases presented in the previous questions, the “self” is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
2. Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of a “separate self”?

Can't post until Monday now.

No worries. Have a good weekend.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Kamalavajri]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Dharma wondrous strange!
Profoundest mystery of the Pefect ones
Within the birthless all things take their birth
Yet in that birth, nothing is borne.

Thank you for that.
Actually the section with the quote from Padmasambhava did not contain any question.

The questions were at the end:
1. Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases presented in the previous questions, the “self” is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
2. Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of a “separate self”?

Can't post until Monday now.

No worries. Have a good weekend.

There was a question in there somewhere before the quote and after your questions. I'll repeat. Just as decisions/ choices happen without a "self" or agent, in the same way, does influence/ contribution happen (helpful or unhelpful) as part of pratityasamutpada? Something about intention having an effect. Possibly all that is being said here is pratityssamutpada is funtioning! This is probably the last lingering query. No self and no computer either but a new one has been ordered! Thanks, Kamalavajri

All the best
Dridhamati

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Just as decisions/ choices happen without a "self" or agent, in the same way, does influence/ contribution happen (helpful or unhelpful) as part of pratityasamutpada? Something about intention having an effect. Possibly all that is being said here is pratityssamutpada is funtioning! This is probably the last lingering query.

I do not have any answer to the question: “does influence/ contribution happen (helpful or unhelpful) as part of pratityasamutpada?”

Can it simply be that "influence/contribution happens."? Why more?

Please note: whatever the answer that emerges, it needs to be held very lightly, as merely pointing in the general direction of the truth (small ‘t’). It is very tempting at this point (small mind’s propencity to conceptualise, objectify), to ‘replace’ an agent with another. God, Allah, Jehova, Awareness, Consciousness, Pratityasamutpada, Emptiness, One/Not-Two, and the list goes on, all externalised, and in some cases strongly objectified, replacements for the void that is left when the “self” is seen to be utterly absent.

The inquiry here is uniquely concerned with whether ‘seeing through the illusion of the “self”’ has occurred in/with the organism usually referred to as Kamalavajri.

Can you please look into this “last lingering query” in direct experience?
What is observed?

No self and no computer either but a new one has been ordered!

If you’ve ordered a new “self” you might be disappointed! (lol)
Best wishes with the new computer.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Kamalavajri]

Hi Kamalavajri,

Just as decisions/ choices happen without a "self" or agent, in the same way, does influence/ contribution happen (helpful or unhelpful) as part of pratityasamutpada? Something about intention having an effect. Possibly all that is being said here is pratityssamutpada is funtioning! This is probably the last lingering query.

I do not have any answer to the question: “does influence/ contribution happen (helpful or unhelpful) as part of pratityasamutpada?”

Can it simply be that "influence/contribution happens."? Why more?

Please note: whatever the answer that emerges, it needs to be held very lightly, as merely pointing in the general direction of the truth (small ‘t’). It is very tempting at this point (small mind’s propencity to conceptualise, objectify), to ‘replace’ an agent with another. God, Allah, Jehova, Awareness, Consciousness, Pratityasamutpada, Emptiness, One/Not-Two, and the list goes on, all externalised, and in some cases strongly objectified, replacements for the void that is left when the “self” is seen to be utterly absent.

The inquiry here is uniquely concerned with whether ‘seeing through the illusion of the “self”’ has occurred in/with the organism usually referred to as Kamalavajri.

Can you please look into this “last lingering query” in direct experience?
What is observed?

No self and no computer either but a new one has been ordered!

If you’ve ordered a new “self” you might be disappointed! (lol)
Best wishes with the new computer.

All the best
Dridhamati

Thank you - very helpful as always. The last lingering query was only mind-led - wanting to know how things work without a so called "self".
In answer to the 2 questions:
There is no doubt or unclarity about the "self" being nothing other than mental fabrication.
There are no doubts about seeing through the illusion of a separate "self".
Thankfully, what's been ordered is a new computer not "self" and hopefully the next post will be from there!
With all good wishes, Kamalavajri

[dridhamati]

Hi Kamalavajri,

The last lingering query was only mind-led - wanting to know how things work without a so called "self".

Very well spotted. Thank you for that.

In answer to the 2 questions:
There is no doubt or unclarity about the "self" being nothing other than mental fabrication.
There are no doubts about seeing through the illusion of a separate "self".

Wow. I have guided a few people and still when we arrive at this point a deep joy emerges. Thank you Kamalavajri for this precious moment.

Now. Are there any questions that need answering at this point? Something we skimmed over, shelved?

If not, I propose we move to the last step: a set of six (more) questions. After answering those I will ask other LU guides to have a look at the dialogue and the final answers and see if they have further queries.

Here are the 6 questions. You can answer them all in one go, or trickle the answers back as you see fit.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

All the best,
Dridhamati

[Kamalavajri]

Hi Kamalavajri,

The last lingering query was only mind-led - wanting to know how things work without a so called "self".

Very well spotted. Thank you for that.

In answer to the 2 questions:
There is no doubt or unclarity about the "self" being nothing other than mental fabrication.
There are no doubts about seeing through the illusion of a separate "self".

Wow. I have guided a few people and still when we arrive at this point a deep joy emerges. Thank you Kamalavajri for this precious moment.

Now. Are there any questions that need answering at this point? Something we skimmed over, shelved?

If not, I propose we move to the last step: a set of six (more) questions. After answering those I will ask other LU guides to have a look at the dialogue and the final answers and see if they have further queries.

Here are the 6 questions. You can answer them all in one go, or trickle the answers back as you see fit.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

All the best,
Dridhamati

So pleased to have contributed to the arising of joy! Can't think of anything we skimmed over or shelved, so here are my responses to the questions.
1. There isn't a separate entity "self", "me", "I" at all anywhere in any shape or form and there wasn't ever.

2. The illusion of a separate self is that there is something that stands out separately from and operates autonomously of the web of conditions and processes that constitute life. It starts from birth, when an "entity" is named, gradually told of it's characteristics and an identity is built up. The entity starts to believe in this illusion and adds new defining features. A history and habits continue to reinforce this sense of identity.

3. It feels a relief not to have to assert something beyond just being part of the flow of life. There is a sense of feeling more connected to other life. A knowing how many other conditions both support and are necessary for anything to happpen.

4. All of it was helpful, from even reading the "Gateless Gatecrashers" book beforehand. The last push was the Neuroscience video clip about making choices, coupled with the guide's response to the question "So what's going on then?".

5. There isn't an "I" to choose, control or make anything happen, just a flow of conditions. It seems obvious now and there all the time, but needed pointing to.

6. A sense of gratitude to Dridhamati for guiding so wonderfully and patiently. May there be a bodily meeting. much gratitude also to Ilona and Elena for setting up this inspired and excellent process and all those who continue to support it.