The Gate

You cannot find one, but is there one somewhere?
In your own experience, is there one?

There must still be an “I”, since I don’t feel its non-existence as yet. You ask ,in my own experience. That for me means when I look, no, I can’t find anything, but that doesn’t seem to change the fact that I don’t really feel its non-existence. I still feel separate. That means boundaries. Where they are, I don’t know. But the fact remains, there must be an ‘I’ somewhere, even if I cannot find it.

Are you sure you had something? Where did you keep that?
What in your experience is this "I" that had something?
Has there ever been an "I" (other then the thought "I" that come and goes and is not real) ?

As you said, you experienced there are thoughts and now and then there is an "I"-thought only.
In that case where could there be located a separate "me"?

What I meant with ‘I had’ is simply that I felt identified with my thoughts. I now know that the I that ‘had something’ did not exist and that there has never been an ‘I’ other than the thoughts that made up my identity. Now I am aware of it and before I wasn’t. That’s all the difference. I have not come to any realization beyond that.
Where could there be located this separate “me”, who knows, I can’t see it, I can’t locate it, yet it’s not totally gone. Only the thoughts about the “I” are gone, or in their way out.

Can you tell me how you did that, identifying?
If you had to learn somebody how to identfy with the body, how would you explain that?
How can you stop the identifying?

I thought my thoughts were me, I thought they were reality, they were part of me, my body too.
I would just say ‘this is who you are’, so if the body was let’s say broad and sturdy, I’d say something like ‘ you are a separate entity, similar to other broad and sturdy forms, which are also separate’
To stop the identifying I began by closing my eyes and feeling my inner body. Everything else was something other. Rooted in that feeling I acknowledged the presence of one thought after the other. I acknowledge the presence of a feeling often attached to the thought and ‘felt the feeling’ in full. After a short while it was gone. What remained was ‘me’. I was not ‘carried away’ anymore, everything came and go, what was always there, ‘the background’ you can say, that’s what I identify now with I guess. So it is another of way of identification I suppose. I’m trying to let that go too and not cling to any concept. I’m taking my time too, in the sense that I try not to think too much, I just try to be present.

What exactly is that: not believing your thoughts?
How do you do that "not believing your thoughts"?
Is there really a "you" that is doing this not believing?

I guess there is. I see a thought and I am tempted to identify with it. I let it go. This again goes to the beginning of the question, there must still be an ‘I’ who acknowledges the presence of the thought and lets it go. You told me before do not guess, look. I look and see nothing, at least nothing I can give a name to or describe. And yet, something must still be there with which I identify.

These are properties of the human condition. How come you cant describe these?

I could of course describe them in a general theoretical way, but not by experience as I thought was the idea. For the decision comes by itself, the intention, well, there is only one and that is to be loving and maybe find the truth. Free will, I have no direct connection or knowledge about it. Choice, I almost never choose, unless I have to, and control, well, I’m letting go of as much of it as I can. When I read those questions (also ‘what makes things happen’ and ‘how does it work’) I felt that you thought I had a new and different perspective of the world, the one that we are supposed to arrive at with the help of the guides in this forum maybe? By answering that I could not describe it I wanted to let you know that that was not the case. I could have given you examples from my experience about all of these things back then when I thought I had any control over my life. Now I don’t think about them.

Every day, every moment start from scratch. Only look in your own experience.
Dont let thought lead you. Only look and see.
Is there an "I" now? Could there ever have been one?

I look and I don’t see anything. I don’t know if there could ever have been one. I try to forget everything and begin from scratch every single moment. I’m doing my best while trying not to try too hard, otherwise I’ll make it into a problem. I’m giving it time. I’ll try to remember that question thought, ‘is there an I now?’ maybe one day I will not only not find any, but also feel that there isn’t any.

There has never been an ‘I’ other than the thoughts that made up my identity.

Ok, cool!
So let us concentrate on:

There must still be an “I”, since I don’t feel its non-existence as yet.

You cant find an I, but feel there still is something left.
This is just a feeling. It is not a real I.
Nothing is going to happen so that you all of a sudden will feel the non-existence of an I.
So there will not be a: "from now on there is no-self" experience ever.
The only thing that can happen is that you see there never was one.

Like when you were told Santaclaus did not exist.
It was not the best news to get (and maybe it was): "Santa is a made-up figure".
You still would see people dressed up like Santa and even there would still be the christmas tree.
But after you heard the news you never would look the same at the made-up figure Santa and you also knew he never had existed.

Same with this "I" figure. It is made up by thought, but it is not real.
Even after seeing its not real you will have "I" thoughts and/or as in your case "I" feelings. But they are not real.
Like you said yourself:

There has never been an ‘I’ other than the thoughts that made up my identity. Now I am aware of it and before I wasn’t.

The same applies for feelings.

You may do this exercise:
Close your eyes and find that feeling that is always here — the being, amness, aliveness - or as you call it: the "I"-feeling.
Notice how thoughts come up after (and before) labelling it "I'.
So this feeling of self can be seen as impersonal feeling + labelling "I".
Can you see it is a labelling process? No "I" is involved.

There must still be an ‘I’ who acknowledges the presence of the thought and lets it go.

There is acknowledging and letting go.
And after that there is the thought: I did that!
Can you see this?
Same as raising your arm, same as choosing an arm.
It happens and then it gets a label "I".
But in fact no "I" is involved.

The same applies for feelings.

Acknowledged, thank you.

You may do this exercise:
Close your eyes and find that feeling that is always here — the being, amness, aliveness - or as you call it: the "I"-feeling.
Notice how thoughts come up after (and before) labelling it "I'.
So this feeling of self can be seen as impersonal feeling + labelling "I".
Can you see it is a labelling process? No "I" is involved.

Yes, there is a labelling. And yes, there is no “I”, only the labelling process.

There is acknowledging and letting go.
And after that there is the thought: I did that!
Can you see this?
Same as raising your arm, same as choosing an arm.
It happens and then it gets a label "I".
But in fact no "I" is involved.

Acknowledged :) There are actions without a subject. Just the doing.

Hi Auren,

Thanks again for your answers. You acknowledged what I wrote to you.
But I wonder, what is your situation now?

Is it clear to you now there is no separate self?
Is it clear there never was one?

If you want to read some more about Direct Experience you can go to:
http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/

Hej Peter

I have been travelling today. I read some of the quotes of the app the night before, also the ones about language and labelling. As I watched the trees go by through the window I had a direct experience with watching. There was only watching. The "I", also the "I" feeling I had, was not there. There was no "I" and yes, there never was. I realized this for the first time. Music was playing and there was noone listening, only the action of listening. It was a break through. The "I" feeling comes sometimes, specially in relation to some thoughts (not all, only the ones the "I" reacts to), but I am able to revert to the "no I". Thank you :D

I will also check the link. I feel quite light and glad, I'll tell you how it goes :)

Hi Auren,

Good to hear from you, you are doing well.
So it is getting clearer the way it is?

Maybe this "I"-feeling will come back very often, maybe it will become less. Nobody or nothing is controlling that.
Can you see that is true?
But as long it is clear it is a feeling with a label, it wont be bothering, isnt it?
The question asked was: Is there a separate "I"? Not: Are there "I" feelings/thoughts?
Would there be someone who can say "no", to that last question?

Funny you say "you" can revert to the "no I". A new Auren (a better hostess?) in control?
Or is that just the habit of saying things?
For something that has going for so long time, it will take a time to get to a stop.

You can also make fun of it: look at the I-feelings and I-thoughts as puppets showing their dance for you.
"There is the hostess again. She does a very good job to be a convincing "I" this time!". Oops, gone already...".

Enjoy the show!

Maybe this "I"-feeling will come back very often, maybe it will become less. Nobody or nothing is controlling that.
Can you see that is true?

Yes, it comes by itself, as I said mostly when thoughts arise that ‘touch’ it. But it makes all the difference to know that it’s a feeling with a label, and I’m leaving it at that.

But as long it is clear it is a feeling with a label, it wont be bothering, isnt it?
The question asked was: Is there a separate "I"? Not: Are there "I" feelings/thoughts?
Would there be someone who can say "no", to that last question?

If you are nowhere to be found, you can't be separate, can you?
No there wouldn’t, I feel there would only be the awareness of the “I” feelings/thoughts

Funny you say "you" can revert to the "no I". A new Auren (a better hostess?) in control?
Or is that just the habit of saying things?
For something that has going for so long time, it will take a time to get to a stop.

Haha it’s difficult to ‘talk’ without the first person pronoun :). No, “I” don’t revert, if I am consciously aware of the process (any process, thinking, listening, seeing), it drops by itself. I feel the only thing I ‘can’ do is to be in the moment, then things happen by themselves: The “I” drops and the attention/awareness goes to the process.
Yes, I guess it will take some time to stop, but I’m not worried, any forcing would be counter-productive wouldn’t it, for who would be doing it? I think I slowly am ‘getting the drift’ and I will let things go their course.

You can also make fun of it: look at the I-feelings and I-thoughts as puppets showing their dance for you.
"There is the hostess again. She does a very good job to be a convincing "I" this time!". Oops, gone already...".

Haha yes, the hostess :))) And yes, that’s what happens, the moment it’s identified she’s gone :) But I have to ask you, who would be making fun?
Thank you again

“I feel the only thing I ‘can’ do is to be in the moment, then things happen by themselves”

- Can you ever be NOT in the moment?
- Are things ever NOT happening by themselves?

Haha No and No -But I guess you can be oblivious to the moment and 'hallucinate' you have control over the outcome of things :)

Ok Auren, very good.

We are back at the 6 final questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
 
6) Anything to add?

Hi Peter,

Thank you, I will come back to you as soon as possible with the answers as I have a lot of work today

Ok Auren, no need for hurrying.

Hi Peter,

I am doing my best, but still feel that I am not prepared to answer your questions. I have tried, this is the result of the first three:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all’, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there isn’t, in any way, shape or form, and no, there never was

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I find it hard to describe it from where I am now, it feels a little as if it never happened. I find it difficult to go back and see through the eyes of the ‘me’ some months ago. I think I saw everything through a filter. If I really try, a ‘bubble’ comes to mind. As if I were in a bubble, a ‘world’ for itself where everything was constantly recycling: thoughts, feelings… separated through an invisible veil. I don’t understand the questions ‘when it starts’ and ‘how it works’, thinking about the illusion of a separate self takes a lot of effort and I don’t seem to be able to give any coherent explanation.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The only difference I feel is the dissapearance of the different layers of ’me’, the different masks you can say. It feels liberating.

I am doing my best, but still feel that I am not prepared to answer your questions. I have tried, this is the result of the first three:

Haha, I think your answers are fine!
What could you do to prepare yourself to just be and answer from that place of not knowing?

Can you give examples of those “layers” that have disappeared?

Once you answered the other 3 questions I will give them to the others guides to read.
If they have additional questions I will give them to you to answer. After that you will be invited to our 'post-gate' Facebook groups, where you could explore and discuss some more if you like.

I just learned there are post gate groups on the forum too.