Ready to end the tyranny of the illusion

[eyeman]

Hi John,

Lovely clear responses again, todays questions is simple:

Have you seen through the illusion of separate-self? Are there any lingering doubts or foggy areas you'd like to discuss?

Mike :-)

[johnb]

Have you seen through the illusion of separate-self?

Only when I actually look. :-) It doesn't seem durable through day-to-day experience. When I read (about a year ago) the accounts of this process in the Gateless Gatecrashers, there was a definite shift in tone that doesn't seem to have occurred here. The certainty that seems to come from seeing through the illusion hasn't landed.

Also, it seems that this illusion is pitching a fierce battle for its survival. Racing thoughts, truncated sleep, ragged emotions, feelings of desperation. (Mostly having to do with the door replacement project, which is going way slower than I had hoped, and other home maintenance/improvement projects on my list to be done before the cold weather sets in. This is giving rise to all manner of storification about "me", what I want and don't want, and what the state of this house represents to and about me.)

Are there any lingering doubts or foggy areas you'd like to discuss?

Based on your read of my process, is it clear to you that I've seen through the illusion? Is it just a matter of carrying the recognition forward into daily experience (however that might be done) and allowing the insight to stabilize and solidify, or is there anything further to be done?

Is it true that separation exists entirely in the mind, or is there a bodily component (lingering feelings of separation held in the body, etc.) that needs to be addressed?

If the illusion has been seen through, and it's just a matter of stabilizing and solidifying the insight in daily experience, may I please join the after-care group? Or what's next?

[eyeman]

Hiya John,

Thanks for your full response. It helps with examining where the focus needs to go. There's no hurry to finish here, it could well be beneficial to keep looking at this in order to gain as much clarity as possible. After that, there's many great groups where everyone who has questions, doubts or wants to take things further all engage in open discussion, there is lots of aftercare and support there - plus of course, I hope we'll remain in contact in-case any further questions etc... come up that I can help with.

Let's go through your last responses:

eyeman wrote:
Have you seen through the illusion of separate-self?

Only when I actually look. :-) It doesn't seem durable through day-to-day experience. When I read (about a year ago) the accounts of this process in the Gateless Gatecrashers, there was a definite shift in tone that doesn't seem to have occurred here. The certainty that seems to come from seeing through the illusion hasn't landed.

If when you look, you see that there's no separate self to be found - then does that mean when you're not looking the self is somehow present? Or is it that the mind continues to play tricks and create a dialogue as though nothing's changed? Has anything ACTUALLY changed?

If we use the 'Santa' story as an illustration. As kids we might believe Santa is real, then one day we might see something or realise for some reason that he's never been around ever. The story of Santa still comes up in the mind and for a while, the child may need to think about it and remind themselves that 'ah - yes there's no Santa' but that knowing is always available.

Also, it seems that this illusion is pitching a fierce battle for its survival. Racing thoughts, truncated sleep, ragged emotions, feelings of desperation. (Mostly having to do with the door replacement project, which is going way slower than I had hoped, and other home maintenance/improvement projects on my list to be done before the cold weather sets in. This is giving rise to all manner of storification about "me", what I want and don't want, and what the state of this house represents to and about me.)

Life as it presents itself to John continues after seeing through delusion - could we expect it to be any different? It's really about knowing it's a story and not Reality. Automatic responses come up, hassles cause stress etc... When responses happen, it's a good time to look at exactly what is happening. Now it's possible to look at it without trying to change reality - eg: Thoughts happening, body feelings which are labelled stress and hassle. It's only the mind that tells the story that this is a negative 'state'. What this is in reality is thoughts and sensations. The more often that this is seen, the less we give those thoughts any attention - this all happens quite naturally.

Based on your read of my process, is it clear to you that I've seen through the illusion? Is it just a matter of carrying the recognition forward into daily experience (however that might be done) and allowing the insight to stabilize and solidify, or is there anything further to be done?

You have clearly answered this question John by stating: 'There is no actual separate self available to direct experience. It is imagined only.'

It's true that the mind and thoughts will revolt - it's always been King and doesn't lay down and die that easily. It's very common for it to literally try anything at it's disposal to try to protect those beliefs. Giving up a lifetime of believing something so fundamental is not quick, but again return to the idea of Santa - ultimately deep down you know if something is real or not real.

Is it true that separation exists entirely in the mind, or is there a bodily component (lingering feelings of separation held in the body, etc.) that needs to be addressed?

There is no doubt about it - there is a 'sense of self', nothing wrong with that at all - language would be extremely difficult to deny the conventional 'self'. It's easy enough to think of the term 'self' as pointing towards a bundle of conditions or story of John. It's when we believe that it's more than that, that we begin to feel like victims or conquerors of the world. When you break it down to the very bare basics - we are simply awareness of sensation, some we label good and some bad but remember these are projections onto reality, they are not reality.

If the illusion has been seen through, and it's just a matter of stabilizing and solidifying the insight in daily experience, may I please join the after-care group? Or what's next?

There will be no problem with that John - perhaps keep going in here until things are a little clearer

Mike :-)

[johnb]

If when you look, you see that there's no separate self to be found - then does that mean when you're not looking the self is somehow present? Or is it that the mind continues to play tricks and create a dialogue as though nothing's changed? Has anything ACTUALLY changed?

Good catch, Mike! :-) Whatever I am doesn't depend on my looking, thank GOD! :-) Nothing has actually changed; it is the mind playing tricks.

Life as it presents itself to John continues after seeing through delusion - could we expect it to be any different? It's really about knowing it's a story and not Reality. Automatic responses come up, hassles cause stress etc... When responses happen, it's a good time to look at exactly what is happening. Now it's possible to look at it without trying to change reality - eg: Thoughts happening, body feelings which are labelled stress and hassle. It's only the mind that tells the story that this is a negative 'state'. What this is in reality is thoughts and sensations. The more often that this is seen, the less we give those thoughts any attention - this all happens quite naturally.

Yes, I notice this often. I hear the thoughts about me or mine or how I did or didn't do something, recognize it as thought and not actually me. Or noticing what happens, that there is just happening--stuff appearing--without an author, and it all goes on quite naturally and effortlessly. It was quite helpful yesterday when "I" was able, after hours and hours of prep work, to install the door in the opening in the wall. Activity happened, instructions followed; when an obstacle appeared, the next step also appeared in inner vision and the body moved to do the next step, and so on, until the door was shimmed and screwed into place, nicely plumb with an even gap all 'round and a satisfying 'chunk' when closing and latching.

It's true that the mind and thoughts will revolt - it's always been King and doesn't lay down and die that easily. It's very common for it to literally try anything at it's disposal to try to protect those beliefs. Giving up a lifetime of believing something so fundamental is not quick, but again return to the idea of Santa - ultimately deep down you know if something is real or not real.

Yes.

There is no doubt about it - there is a 'sense of self', nothing wrong with that at all - language would be extremely difficult to deny the conventional 'self'. It's easy enough to think of the term 'self' as pointing towards a bundle of conditions or story of John. It's when we believe that it's more than that, that we begin to feel like victims or conquerors of the world. When you break it down to the very bare basics - we are simply awareness of sensation, some we label good and some bad but remember these are projections onto reality, they are not reality.

Yes, I see that.

What I'd like to do now, with your permission, is to take a few days' break from writing, simply observe, and then report back with further questions or insights. Unless you have anything you want me to specifically focus my attention on now?

Gratefully,
John

[eyeman]

Hi John,

Yes that's a good idea to sit on it for a few days. You described the process of the door being fitted and how you were able to see that obstacles were overcome eg: The idea came and the fix happened. This is a good example of how things really are: Many who have gone through this guiding begin to feel a surge of energy - this happens because we realise how much energy it took to hold the whole delusion together, the mind constantly on guard to protect its 'separateness', constantly coming up with a dialogue of how 'John's' life is, then of course the body responding with stress or something else. While this all still goes on - at least for a while, the thoughts can happen and we realise we don't have to listen and respond (cause being insight - response being altered response). We then realise what a strain it all was to feel like we're in the story and everything's happening to this imagined self. After seeing that the story can continue without any intervention, you can sit back and just enjoy the ride, it all takes care of itself.

Hope you have a good few days sitting on the bus which has no driver - you can report back when ever you like but there's certainly no rush :-)

One last thing which you may find useful, is to re-visit the book by Elena and Illona. Even if it's just for a few sections - reading it when on 'the other side' feels like a very different experience.

Take care

Mike :-)

[johnb]

One last thing which you may find useful, is to re-visit the book by Elena and Illona. Even if it's just for a few sections - reading it when on 'the other side' feels like a very different experience.

You mean Gateless Gatecrashers? Thanks for the suggestion. I've been missing my nightly spiritual reading :-)

Talk to you soon, Mike. Thanks!

[johnb]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for letting me take a pause to observe this recognition as it appears in daily life. Some observations:

Noticing the claims "I" and "me" appearing in thought often occasions a brief pause to consider, and see that they do not refer to an actual thing, but are references arising out of habit. There is just life appearing and occurring.

There's now a greater fascination with and curiosity about what occurs, like "Wow! Look at those hand washing the dishes. How is that happening?" and so on.

There's a concern that maybe the tap root has only been nicked, and that the illusory separate self will continue to dominate. And having seen that control is a total illusion, the fear that nothing could be done about it. And yet, there are resources available, and the assurance from many teachers that the recognition of one's true nature is inevitable.

A question arises about the nature of reality and what makes the objects of the senses different from the objects of thinking? I clearly see that thinking occurs and is known but that its content is not real. Can we say though that the objects of the senses are real, when all we know of them is what is perceived through the apparatus of the body-mind? Is a coffee cup any more real than the thought "I did that" just because it appears to the senses?

Thanks,
John

[eyeman]

Hiya John, good to hear from you & hear how things have been going :-)

Let's consider this in a two-fold way, one in terms of thinking logic and one in terms of Direct Experience.

Noticing the claims "I" and "me" appearing in thought often occasions a brief pause to consider, and see that they do not refer to an actual thing, but are references arising out of habit. There is just life appearing and occurring.

There's now a greater fascination with and curiosity about what occurs, like "Wow! Look at those hand washing the dishes. How is that happening?" and so on.

Yes - you're seeing exactly how things are, the habits continuing but with a new perspective eg: Now there's not just total acceptance that John is instructing his hands to do the dishes, when the thought or question comes up, there's a new response - looking and seeing what's really happening. It takes time for a lifetime of mind habits to alter, but by the sounds of it, when what many call 'selfing' occurs, there is noticing of this, looking, and seeing how it really is. It really doesn't take much of this before the 'selfing' really starts to bring up an automatic response of seeing it and being ok with that - it's just the mind doing what it does - the less you 'believe' what the comentary says, the less it says it. Life becomes aligned to Reality rather than belief.

There's a concern that maybe the tap root has only been nicked, and that the illusory separate self will continue to dominate. And having seen that control is a total illusion, the fear that nothing could be done about it. And yet, there are resources available, and the assurance from many teachers that the recognition of one's true nature is inevitable.

In truth, insight either happens or it doesn't - this can be a concern if someone's told this early on during the pointing process - eg: It doesn't matter how much you want to see through this illusion, how much effort you put in, some will see, and some will not - 'you' have NO control over it. Now think back to the three questions 1) Is there an Elephant 2) Is there hands 3) Is there self... You looked and you saw the truth! It really is as simple as that. Any thoughts arising as a result of that are just imaginings - even if those thoughts tell you - wow, I've seen or there must be more to this etc... None of the thoughts 'about' it are actually 'it' - in the moment of looking when no self is seen, if you do it right now - look and if no self can be found, then that's the reality and not the thinking about it.

Again, think back to the imagined food and then the real food, you clearly saw that imagined is just that - it's imagined where as real direct sense experience of something is not imagined. The concern you have eg: That the illusory separate self will continue to dominate - this is the imagined food, it's not possible to live on imagined food.

A question arises about the nature of reality and what makes the objects of the senses different from the objects of thinking? I clearly see that thinking occurs and is known but that its content is not real. Can we say though that the objects of the senses are real, when all we know of them is what is perceived through the apparatus of the body-mind? Is a coffee cup any more real than the thought "I did that" just because it appears to the senses?

The above question is a great starting point for 'post gate' enquiry. Mike and many others are available for further pointing to help you explore these questions - there are multiple routes possible and I think you'd get a lot out of them, another great option which is fantastic for deepening and establishing insight is to consider guiding on here.

In your above question - we can speculate and discuss, or we can look and find out, it's possible to use all the same methods of looking at our direct experience to cut through further delusion, pointing can help here but it's also very usual for further beliefs to just start falling away - as each new question arises, we ultimately want to know if something's true or if it's false.

Tempting though it is, to continue into this territory, it also works very well to keep this particular forum purely for seeing through the illusion of a separate self.

We don't need to do it right away but there is a set of final questions - these can be very useful for clarifying things, the answers are then presented so fellow guides can take a look to see if there's any areas which may need further guiding or if anything's been missed during our dialogue. Further questions are often presented if it's felt they will be of benefit.

Here's the list of questions as it may be useful to go through them as you please but there really is no rush :-)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started the pointing dialogue, please report how things have been since then.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Mike :-)

[johnb]

Hi Mike,

Thanks once again for your beautifully detailed responses and helpful pointers. I'll answer the questions later - perhaps a few days' time.

John

[eyeman]

That's great John, take as much time as you like :-)

[eyeman]

Hi John, how are things going? :-)

[johnb]

Hi Mike, thanks for checking in - it's been a full week, and I've been alternately seeing and grappling with doubts. I hope to have a full response by tomorrow morning.

[eyeman]

Hi John, when doubts pop up, if they are not seen through quickly, please feel free to share them for further pointing - it may be the case that you're already looking at these and seeing how things are anyway. Look forward to hearing your responses & of course please add anything else that might not have been covered in those questions. It's a great resource to have multiple guides take a look, and fill in any missing gaps.

Mike :-)

[johnb]

Hi Mike, still working on the answers. Will report by tomorrow. Thanks!

[johnb]

Hi Mike,

OK I've been wrestling with these questions and it's time to spit it all out. :-)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way shape or form? Was there ever?

The separate self exists only in imagination, in thought. And even though thinking undoubtedly happens, it's clear that the content of thought is not real. Further, when not consulting thought and looking directly, a separate self cannot be found anywhere, in any shape or form. So there is no actual separate entity in reality.

This recognition does not change at all what I am; it is simply that I see the difference between what's real and illusory. What I am now, I have always been (at least since the birth of this body); there there never was a separate self. Even when memories arise, it's clear that there was only ever sensing, perceiving, thinking, knowing, and the assumption of a separate self. No, there never was a separate self in reality.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self is an activity of mind, a habitual assumption based on societal indoctrination. Enough people said it was so, especially when this body-mind was learning language, that the body-mind took it on board as true.

I was going to say "even though direct experience gives no support for it," but that's not quite true. There is a focal point of experience that corresponds with the body-mind, and which is usually centered in the head somewhere behind the eyes. This focal point lends circumstantial credence to the idea of the separate self, even though when looked for, cannot be found. The thoughts "I", "me", "mine" seem to refer to this focal point of experience.

Also, I notice two distinct types of thought. One are random thoughts that "drop in," seemingly coming from outside somewhere, with no self-orientation. The other, the I-based thoughts, seem to come from this focal point, from "inside," and also have a volitional character, a "will." A sense of being able to direct and cause other thoughts and actions.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started the pointing dialogue, please report how things have been since then.

Sometimes there is a sweep of exhiliration through the body on seeing the emptiness of the self and the spontenaiety of life just happening - a sense of awe at the mystery of it all.

Also the habit of reaching out to consume snippets of spiritual teachings has lessened, partly I think from just breaking the habit when entering this dialog.

However the overall experience is more like disappointment: "Is that all there is?". Whatever I see now I saw before the pointing dialog; the dialog has mainly helped to sharpen the distinction between actual experience and imagination.

When I look in direct experience, I see that it all boils down to Being and Awareness (Sat-Chit), but I'm still asking "Where's the Ananda?" Perhaps it's just a matter of continuing the recognition and seeing how it manifests in life as the momentum of conditioned patterns gradually subsides. The mind-storms, belief in separate self, and self-concern seem just as active as they ever were.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I would say that this process has been an incremental reinforcement of what was already seen, so no one particular bit that pushed me over. As I said before, this process helped to sharpen the distinction between the actual and the imaginary.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

The topic of control has been a matter of heated debate since it was raised here. There is still a strong belief in the ability to control, decide, and make choices. There is much that occurs spontaneously and choicelessly--perhaps everything. When looking directly, I see that stuff just happens and then the labelling faculty of mind claims ownership. Writing these words and looking at whether I have a choice about which keys to press and which words to form, I find that the words just arrive, followed by thought that what was written is good enough to present, or perhaps that it needs to be edited more, and then editing occurs. But the mind cannot accept that it is all happening spontaneously without volition. There most definitely seems to be an author of words and action here.

Taking another example of a song that is running in background of mind, outside of direct attention. When attention recognizes that a song is playing and focuses on it, there seems to be a volitional ability to keep the song going. And yet I cannot honestly say that I actually have that ability. Attention focuses on the song so that it moves from background to foreground, and then thought believes that "I" can manipulate the thought-stream to keep the song going or maybe morph it into something else.

As you can see, there are doubts in this area.

6) Anything to add?

Feels like I'm wedged in the gate, not actually through it. :-) What do you say?