Looking for a final push

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
DIY hopefully – fingers crossed today!

Something I realised last night was that the 'body-mind' is self-contained and I really don't know how to express what I felt but it was like I realised that the body and the thoughts are all there is to it and there is nothing else added on from outside (like a controller).

Did you see the controller as being ‘outside’ of this then? Or something different? Im not sure Im understanding you here. Can you have a go at explaining this in a bit more detail? I realize that may be difficult.

Also, the day before, I noticed a thought and I could see that the thought had its own personality in a way, like the way it said the words, and I realised that's the same personality I take as 'mine', then I thought that maybe the personality is defined by thoughts.

Lovely! Well noticed! Now see if you can catch that again!

Other than that I'm kind of demotivated with the whole thing because I feel like nothing will change after I see it and the same problems will remain and there is some fear of the future.

What would want change – or what wants things to be different? Is that thought? What tells you that everything is the same – thought again? Is that actually true? Is that what you really experience – nothing changing? Look. And as you stated above – the thought had its own personality linked with the word – look at the thought and the word demotivated – is that thought creating story? Without the thought of demotivation – what is there to be demotivated?

Also the last few days I kept thinking 'All will be taken care of' and things like that and it annoyed me because I can see it's just a spiritual cliche that the mind has taken on to comfort itself.

Did you bring the annoyance? Could you send it away? Could you control it? Is it yours? Or did it come and go on its own – just like a cloud floating across the sky? Does the sky mind what clouds are there or not? So who was annoyed? Where is this you? What exactly did this annoyance point or refer to?
Please let me know if anger and or fear crops up – OK.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Did you see the controller as being ‘outside’ of this then? Or something different? Im not sure Im understanding you here. Can you have a go at explaining this in a bit more detail? I realize that may be difficult.

Well, if there were a controller, it must be separate from the body-mind in order to control it. What I saw is that all there is of the body-mind is the body and the thoughts and it seemed self-contained, by which I mean there is nothing 'added' which could be a controller.

What would want change – or what wants things to be different? Is that thought?

Yeah it is thought.

What tells you that everything is the same – thought again? Is that actually true? Is that what you really experience – nothing changing? Look.

It's thought that tells me everything is the same, through memory, but nevertheless, it's happening (the memory thought).

And as you stated above – the thought had its own personality linked with the word – look at the thought and the word demotivated – is that thought creating story? Without the thought of demotivation – what is there to be demotivated?

Yeah thought creates big story, shame about the past, fear and hope for the future.

Yeah it's thoughts saying that it's not worth it anymore because it's not going to do what I really want it to do (although the thoughts don't know that).

Did you bring the annoyance? Could you send it away? Could you control it? Is it yours? Or did it come and go on its own – just like a cloud floating across the sky? Does the sky mind what clouds are there or not? So who was annoyed? Where is this you? What exactly did this annoyance point or refer to?

No it came after the thought and thoughts came as well about the annoyance.

Please let me know if anger and or fear crops up – OK.

I had a bit of both today but I assume you mean uncaused.

I had the feeling today that everything I do is done to escape, whether it's reading, surfing the internet, watching tele, eating, exercising, or even this. I can see the mind wanting to do certain activities and justifying them, and I couldn't find anything that wasn't an escape, and if I stop escaping I'm left with boredom, confusion, frustration, anxiety.

Thanks xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

Well, if there were a controller, it must be separate from the body-mind in order to control it. What I saw is that all there is of the body-mind is the body and the thoughts and it seemed self-contained, by which I mean there is nothing 'added' which could be a controller.

So you cant find a controller then? No controller of the body or movement of the body – or both? And no controller of thoughts – yes.

It's thought that tells me everything is the same, through memory, but nevertheless, it's happening (the memory thought).

Yes thoughts are being experienced – BUT what is in the content – is that being experienced? Thoughts say nothing has changed – but is that really the case? And where is this person who believes those thoughts? You cant find a controller of thought – so where is the believer?

Yeah thought creates big story, shame about the past, fear and hope for the future.

So what happens when there is no thinking? What happens when thoughts are watched as they drift on by?

Yeah it's thoughts saying that it's not worth it anymore because it's not going to do what I really want it to do (although the thoughts don't know that).

Well noticed!

I had a bit of both today but I assume you mean uncaused.

Is there any other kind?

I had the feeling today that everything I do is done to escape, whether it's reading, surfing the internet, watching tele, eating, exercising, or even this. I can see the mind wanting to do certain activities and justifying them, and I couldn't find anything that wasn't an escape, and if I stop escaping I'm left with boredom, confusion, frustration, anxiety.

You see this yes? One thing – thoughts will do anything in order not to look. They will bring out the big guns in order not to look. Thoughts are trying to help and to fix – that’s what they do. They are not the enemy regardless of what thought labels thought – do you see this?
All that is needed is to sit and notice – notice that thoughts are present, notice thoughts and that they are labelling - emotions and sensations, notice feeling, sensation etc. That’s it. Watch all this happening.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Hello

So you cant find a controller then? No controller of the body or movement of the body – or both? And no controller of thoughts – yes.

In that moment yes that's what it seemed like, although it was very subtle.

Yes thoughts are being experienced – BUT what is in the content – is that being experienced? Thoughts say nothing has changed – but is that really the case? And where is this person who believes those thoughts? You cant find a controller of thought – so where is the believer?

If it's reduced down, then the thing that thought wants to change is thought and thought patterns, so it's thought referring to itself again and it's futile to try and explain it.

So what happens when there is no thinking? What happens when thoughts are watched as they drift on by?

When I see thoughts for what they are, I find them a bit funny. I'm feeling some confusion as I reflect on this and some fear, and I've read people saying this a lot, 'What will happen to 'me' without thought', 'How will I function in the world and relate to others', I realise this is just thought but I wanted to let you know what was happening.

Is there any other kind?

I meant fear appearing on its own as opposed to fear in response to an external situation.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

I had the feeling today that everything I do is done to escape, whether it's reading, surfing the internet, watching tele, eating, exercising, or even this. I can see the mind wanting to do certain activities and justifying them, and I couldn't find anything that wasn't an escape, and if I stop escaping I'm left with boredom, confusion, frustration, anxiety.

You see this yes? One thing – thoughts will do anything in order not to look. They will bring out the big guns in order not to look. Thoughts are trying to help and to fix – that’s what they do. They are not the enemy regardless of what thought labels thought – do you see this?
All that is needed is to sit and notice – notice that thoughts are present, notice thoughts and that they are labelling - emotions and sensations, notice feeling, sensation etc. That’s it. Watch all this happening.

In that moment yes that's what it seemed like, although it was very subtle.

OK – now look for how often there is a subtle feeling of no controller. See if you can spot it again.

If it's reduced down, then the thing that thought wants to change is thought and thought patterns, so it's thought referring to itself again and it's futile to try and explain it.

Yeh! Daft isn’t it! But what did you notice when you looked? What happened to the thought?

When I see thoughts for what they are, I find them a bit funny. I'm feeling some confusion as I reflect on this and some fear, and I've read people saying this a lot, 'What will happen to 'me' without thought', 'How will I function in the world and relate to others', I realise this is just thought but I wanted to let you know what was happening.

Fabulous! What is feeling confusion here? Thought again? Well yes! Thought deals with objects and things. THIS doesn’t. Thought will NEVER understand! In terms of how will you function – if there has never been a ‘you’ – has functioning still happened? When autopilot is on – like in driving the car – you still got there! Jobs still get done? Imagine a lift with a voice telling you what floor you are on or whether you are going up or down – the lift is not governed by the voice – the lift moves on its own. The voice just accompanies it! Now think of thoughts saying ‘you’ all the time – you are moving, you are angry, how will you function! Do you see? Now look!

I meant fear appearing on its own as opposed to fear in response to an external situation.

So did I! :)
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

You see this yes? One thing – thoughts will do anything in order not to look. They will bring out the big guns in order not to look. Thoughts are trying to help and to fix – that’s what they do. They are not the enemy regardless of what thought labels thought – do you see this?

Yes thoughts are not the enemy, they are just thoughts, they can't have an agenda.

All that is needed is to sit and notice – notice that thoughts are present, notice thoughts and that they are labelling - emotions and sensations, notice feeling, sensation etc. That’s it. Watch all this happening.

But everything apart from sitting and noticing seems like an escape from something, even sitting and noticing can become an activity. It feels like all day I'm just moving from one thing to another to escape, and then I go to sleep, which is another escape.

Yeh! Daft isn’t it! But what did you notice when you looked? What happened to the thought?

Nothing.

Fabulous! What is feeling confusion here? Thought again? Well yes! Thought deals with objects and things. THIS doesn’t. Thought will NEVER understand! In terms of how will you function – if there has never been a ‘you’ – has functioning still happened? When autopilot is on – like in driving the car – you still got there! Jobs still get done? Imagine a lift with a voice telling you what floor you are on or whether you are going up or down – the lift is not governed by the voice – the lift moves on its own. The voice just accompanies it! Now think of thoughts saying ‘you’ all the time – you are moving, you are angry, how will you function! Do you see? Now look!

Yes I like the lift analogy. Thoughts want the body to do certain things and move through life in a certain way and I'm feeling some confusion and fear when that's challenged, because I believe that thought is necessary to figure out life and how to get on in life. Is it not? Not at all? If thought could be switched off the exact same things would happen? There is some doubt that that can be true. And even if it is true, how on Earth can I see it's true without just believing?

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
Can't quote on my iPad. Sorry.
But everything apart from sitting and noticing seems like an escape from something, even sitting and noticing can become an activity. It feels like all day I'm just moving from one thing to another to escape, and then I go to sleep, which is another escape.

Yea. Well noticed, If looking has turned into something to do. But again, just notice that as well. but who is doing? Where is the doer? Can you see the doer?

Nothing.

You see this? How does this nothingness feel? Is it ever not there?

Yes I like the lift analogy. Thoughts want the body to do certain things and move through life in a certain way and I'm feeling some confusion and fear when that's challenged, because I believe that thought is necessary to figure out life and how to get on in life. Is it not? Not at all? If thought could be switched off the exact same things would happen? There is some doubt that that can be true. And even if it is true, how on Earth can I see it's true without just believing?

From thought, yes? The confusion? Where is there a problem out of thought? What is wrong with right now except in thought?
In that nothingness, is there confusion? In that nothingness, is there doubt? Does that nothingness require proof or belief?
What thinks that belief is required?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Yea. Well noticed, If looking has turned into something to do. But again, just notice that as well. but who is doing? Where is the doer? Can you see the doer?

No, I can't see a doer. The doer is just a thought.

You see this? How does this nothingness feel? Is it ever not there?

I don't know about that, I just meant that nothing happens when the thought is seen.

From thought, yes? The confusion? Where is there a problem out of thought? What is wrong with right now except in thought?

Nothing is wrong outside of thought, and the thoughts come saying 'But something is still wrong even if this is true'.

What thinks that belief is required?

There is no thought about belief being required, rather there is thought about not wanting belief, but wanting knowing; knowing that there is no doer, knowing that everything happens by itself, knowing that there is no burden to do or accomplish certain things.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hey Daniel

No, I can't see a doer. The doer is just a thought.

OK – is this clear now? Now grey areas of uncertainty?

I don't know about that, I just meant that nothing happens when the thought is seen.

OK – so what is there when the thought is seen? Anything? Or nothing?

thing is wrong outside of thought, and the thoughts come saying 'But something is still wrong even if this is true'.

What power do thoughts have? Who or what do thought effect? How? What impact does the reflection have on the mirror? Outside of thought that is?

There is no thought about belief being required, rather there is thought about not wanting belief, but wanting knowing; knowing that there is no doer, knowing that everything happens by itself, knowing that there is no burden to do or accomplish certain things.

OK – now stare at this ‘want’. Have a right good look at it. What wants? What is want? Is it feeling? Emotion? Sensation? Thought? Story? What do you see when you look at it?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

OK – is this clear now? Now grey areas of uncertainty?

I think it's clear, although the appearance of a doer remains, as in, the thoughts come like 'What shall I do.... I'll do this' but the doer is just a concept. If there were no thoughts, there would be no question of whether there is a doer or not.

OK – so what is there when the thought is seen? Anything? Or nothing?

Oh, I think you mean is there something experiencing the thought? No, the thought just appears, but it doesn't have a location, it's hard to try and explain it. Thought seems so mystical, people say that thoughts come from the brain, but it doesn't seem like that at all. Sorry I've gone on a tangent.

What power do thoughts have?

It seems like thoughts have the power to effect the movements of the body, psychological mood, destiny of the body (what it does in its life).

Who or what do thought effect? How?

It seems like thoughts effect the body. I have no idea how.

What impact does the reflection have on the mirror? Outside of thought that is?

The reflection and the mirror are one and the same.

OK – now stare at this ‘want’. Have a right good look at it. What wants? What is want? Is it feeling? Emotion? Sensation? Thought? Story? What do you see when you look at it?

Wanting is thought, if there are any emotions seemingly tied to wanting such as frustration or despair, then thought is giving these emotions the labels. Story is involved in wanting but story is thought too, so yeah, all thought. When I look at wanting, I see thoughts, words and images imagining a better 'me'.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

Oh, I think you mean is there something experiencing the thought? No, the thought just appears, but it doesn't have a location, it's hard to try and explain it.

Sorry - I meant what does thought sit or appear in? What is behind, under, around thought? Anything or nothing?

It seems like thoughts have the power to effect the movements of the body, psychological mood, destiny of the body (what it does in its life).

OK – so this would mean thoughts have control over movement. Do they? Lying in bed thoughts will tell the body to move and get out of bed – but does? Can the thought move the body out of bed? Or are we back in the lift again with the voice saying ground floor going down?

Try this: Tap with two or three fingers on the leg. Tap, tap, tap. Then, hold the fingers poised ready to tap. Just waiting in the air for a command to tap. Looking at the fingers in the air, it’s not quite known when they will tap. In fact, the thought “tap now” can quite happily show up and yet the fingers remain in the air. See if you can notice the moment when the command is issued and from whence it comes SUCH THAT the fingers simply have to obey. Notice if other commands to tap can be issued which have no affect on the fingers, leaving them remaining in the air. Is it true that in direct experience there is no command that can be issued to make the fingers tap? What causes the finger to tap? Anything? See what can be discovered in experience rather than thought.

That would also mean the thought affects emotion – now you tested that I believe? Make yourself happy NOW with the thought! Does it work?

That would also mean the thought controls everything. Does it or again are we back in the lift hearing second floor for accessories? Did you choose to like chocolate or not? Did you actually decide to love men or women? Did you choose to be interested in dancing or not, or was it something automatic? Did you choose your life? Tell me exactly what does thought control! Be specific.

It seems like thoughts effect the body. I have no idea how.

Is this a thought? What do you actually experience?

The reflection and the mirror are one and the same.

Exactly – that is what we are exploring here! You are one in the same with everything!

Wanting is thought, if there are any emotions seemingly tied to wanting such as frustration or despair, then thought is giving these emotions the labels. Story is involved in wanting but story is thought too, so yeah, all thought. When I look at wanting, I see thoughts, words and images imagining a better 'me'.

What happens to wanting once it is seen? And what is behind, around, under that thought? Anything or nothing?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Sorry - I meant what does thought sit or appear in? What is behind, under, around thought? Anything or nothing?

Nothing at all, they don't have location, it's not even correct to say that thoughts appear on a blank screen, because that's just an image of thought. So, neither can there be anything around thought.

OK – so this would mean thoughts have control over movement. Do they? Lying in bed thoughts will tell the body to move and get out of bed – but does? Can the thought move the body out of bed? Or are we back in the lift again with the voice saying ground floor going down?

This is the contradiction, thoughts can come telling the body to move, and if the body moves, it appears that the thought caused it, but equally, the body may not move, then the thought has no meaning.

Try this

This was quite interesting, I saw the command to tap with no tap and it is true that it's not known when the finger will tap and when it does it happens spontaneously, if I tried to explain it, it felt like a build up of energy behind the finger until it tapped, but I couldn't say what caused it to tap.

That would also mean the thought affects emotion – now you tested that I believe? Make yourself happy NOW with the thought! Does it work?

Yeah I was wrong to say this. It seems like when loads of negative thoughts are coming, that emotions can accompany them and that makes it seem as though the thoughts are causing the emotions. But it could just as well be the other way around or that both are uncaused.

That would also mean the thought controls everything. Does it or again are we back in the lift hearing second floor for accessories? Did you choose to like chocolate or not? Did you actually decide to love men or women? Did you choose to be interested in dancing or not, or was it something automatic? Did you choose your life?

Things like these, I don't feel I chose. I guess thought doesn't care whether it is believed that these things are chosen or not. But thought seems to want to believe that it controls smaller things, whether I have tea or coffee, whether to talk to someone or not.

Tell me exactly what does thought control! Be specific.

It seems like thought controls small choices like the ones I said above. E.g if I'm asked whether I want tea or coffee, Thought: 'Hmm, I feel like having a coffee', Speech: 'I'll have a coffee please'. It seems as though the thought causes the words that come out of the mouth, and I could say that it could be that the thought is simply an unnecessary accessory and that I would have had a coffee with or without the thought, but I couldn't say which one is true, just that either one could be.

Is this a thought? What do you actually experience?

More or less the same as my previous answer.

What happens to wanting once it is seen? And what is behind, around, under that thought? Anything or nothing?

Once the wanting thought is seen it disappears, leaving the feelings, which are less fleeting. No, nothing around the thought.

Thanks xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

Nothing at all, they don't have location, it's not even correct to say that thoughts appear on a blank screen, because that's just an image of thought. So, neither can there be anything around thought.

So can you see this nothingness? Can you sit in this nothingness? Does it ever go or disappear? Or is it always present?

This is the contradiction, thoughts can come telling the body to move, and if the body moves, it appears that the thought caused it, but equally, the body may not move, then the thought has no meaning.

So this is the investigation. Keep looking at the relationship between movement and thought. How often is movement happening without any thought? Would that actually be the case if thought controlled movement? And when thought does appear – is it thought that says it controls movement? What actually is experienced? Look.

Yeah I was wrong to say this. It seems like when loads of negative thoughts are coming, that emotions can accompany them and that makes it seem as though the thoughts are causing the emotions. But it could just as well be the other way around or that both are uncaused.

And again – is it thought that’s says it controls, causes or brings etc? Is it thought that makes a connection between emotion and thought?

It seems like thought controls small choices like the ones I said above. E.g if I'm asked whether I want tea or coffee, Thought: 'Hmm, I feel like having a coffee', Speech: 'I'll have a coffee please'. It seems as though the thought causes the words that come out of the mouth, and I could say that it could be that the thought is simply an unnecessary accessory and that I would have had a coffee with or without the thought, but I couldn't say which one is true, just that either one could be.

So was it decided before the mouth opened and the word coffee came out? That would mean the thought decided what thoughts it would have – is that the case? Watch carefully when choice happens especially tea and coffee!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Hello Sarah

So can you see this nothingness? Can you sit in this nothingness? Does it ever go or disappear? Or is it always present?

No I can't see it, if I could it wouldn't be nothing. Thoughts just appear, without anything to appear into.

So this is the investigation. Keep looking at the relationship between movement and thought. How often is movement happening without any thought? Would that actually be the case if thought controlled movement?

Just from memory, it is true that most of the time there are no thoughts before movement, but if this is challenged then thoughts will come and claim the movement, but I will look out for this directly.

And when thought does appear – is it thought that says it controls movement? What actually is experienced? Look.

Yeah the thought will say: 'I'll go upstairs', then the body goes upstairs and the thought says: 'I went upstairs'. But when it's seen what the I actually refers to it's kind of funny. Thought is saying 'I, a thought, will go upstairs' How can a thought go upstairs?

And again – is it thought that’s says it controls, causes or brings etc? Is it thought that makes a connection between emotion and thought?

Thought will say that an experience or situation caused the emotion. Yes it must be thought that makes the connection, nothing else could.

So was it decided before the mouth opened and the word coffee came out? That would mean the thought decided what thoughts it would have – is that the case? Watch carefully when choice happens especially tea and coffee!

No, the thought to have tea or coffee is totally random, even if an elaborate justification is made for either one ('I've already had 3 coffees today', 'It's close to bed time, coffee will keep me awake') the thoughts are like a landslide, with one thought reacting to the thought before until the final decision thought comes. But even if all the thoughts are random do they not cause the body to say 'tea'? Like the justification thoughts caused the decision thought 'tea'. (When I say caused I mean like the wind causes leaves to fall, not any kind of controlling.)

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

No I can't see it, if I could it wouldn't be nothing. Thoughts just appear, without anything to appear into.

So how do you know its there then?

Just from memory, it is true that most of the time there are no thoughts before movement, but if this is challenged then thoughts will come and claim the movement, but I will look out for this directly.

Well noticed! Keep looking at any type of movement, don’t worry if forgetting happens – just pick up when remembering happens.

Yeah the thought will say: 'I'll go upstairs', then the body goes upstairs and the thought says: 'I went upstairs'. But when it's seen what the I actually refers to it's kind of funny. Thought is saying 'I, a thought, will go upstairs' How can a thought go upstairs?

Exactly! Again well noticed!

Thought will say that an experience or situation caused the emotion. Yes it must be thought that makes the connection, nothing else could.

So now – see if you can notice it happen!

No, the thought to have tea or coffee is totally random, even if an elaborate justification is made for either one ('I've already had 3 coffees today', 'It's close to bed time, coffee will keep me awake') the thoughts are like a landslide, with one thought reacting to the thought before until the final decision thought comes. But even if all the thoughts are random do they not cause the body to say 'tea'? Like the justification thoughts caused the decision thought 'tea'. (When I say caused I mean like the wind causes leaves to fall, not any kind of controlling.)

LOL coffee high! Nobody said decisions don’t happen – BUT is there someone in there doing the deciding – that’s the question! We are exploring the power of thought here – to do anything. Yes thoughts happen – but can they, do they have power! Other than existing – what can they actually do? Watch the hand reach for drink. See if it seamlessly does it or does it on command!
Hugs Sarah xxx