Third time is the charm!

[matumba]

Well, I reread that post and it is not very poignant. I am going to have to focus back on square one and see if this entire trip is just a thought, and that is all there is.
more tomorrow!
thanks,
John.

[Xain]

I've tried to observe that several times, and I don't really have an answer.

Could it be that the only answer you get, comes from a thought and not a 'thing' you can find?

When thoughts go into daydream like plans and they get realized as just that... a pipe dream and they resonate pretty clear. Whereas "I" as a thought is not realized as such. It (the I thought) is more akin to the awareness that identifies those thoughts that are realized as thoughts. And a thought can't realize a thought, so that is a nice muddled explaination ;)

You've lost me.
Either . . . 'I' is something that can be found (using the senses), or the 'I' only appears as an idea. In a thought.
Is this not the case?

As above, the same thing that realizes "obvious" thoughts.

Either there is a 'thing' you can witness/find/locate that realises thoughts, or it is an assumption - An idea.
Which?

In the line, you suggest there is a thing here that realizes thoughts - What is that exactly?
In the line 'I realize thoughts', what is 'I' - A 'real thing' you can find, or an idea?

When I say 'a thought', I am not saying that thoughts appears as real things and can 'do stuff'.
I am saying that the only reference to what IS doing it, is just an idea - A thought appearing.
What has been found so far?

I don't know what is doing the feeling

Is this because it cannot be found as a seperate 'thing'?

I don't know what it is, but its not seen as a thought.

Ok, it is not a thought / an idea - Therefore it is something 'real'. An existing 'thing'. What is that?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,

Could it be that the only answer you get, comes from a thought and not a 'thing' you can find?

Yes

'I' is something that can be found (using the senses), or the 'I' only appears as an idea. In a thought.
Is this not the case?

the "I" must only be an idea.

In the line, you suggest there is a thing here that realizes thoughts - What is that exactly?
In the line 'I realize thoughts', what is 'I' - A 'real thing' you can find, or an idea?

It is an idea

Either there is a 'thing' you can witness/find/locate that realises thoughts, or it is an assumption - An idea.
Which?

an assumption

What has been found so far?

That there is no free will and no separate existing entity

Is this because it cannot be found as a seperate 'thing'?

right

Ok, it is not a thought / an idea - Therefore it is something 'real'. An existing 'thing'. What is that?

I don't know, sense of self?.

Well nuts! why can't I see through this? Everything you say is spot on. When looking, I can't be found. Everything that is happening is just happening and not to "me". What is it that is expecting a shift? "I" am tired, frustrated, stymied. Why this drive to even look? It must come from somewhere. GEEZ!
Oh well, maybe tonight or tomorrow!
Thanks Xain,
John

[Xain]

Why can't I see through this?

Stop right there.
Look - Actually LOOK! Use all the senses.
What 'I' is going to see through this?
Can one be found?

So there isn't an existing 'I' that can see through this . . .
Why would that be?

When looking, I can't be found.

Absolutely! :-)
Why not?
Why can't an 'I' be found?
Why do you always fail to find an 'I' using the senses?
Tell me.

Simply accept what you find, John. You are already there!

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,
Sorry so late in the reply, we had an impromptu camping trip this weekend - good time.

Stop right there.
Look - Actually LOOK! Use all the senses.
What 'I' is going to see through this?
Can one be found?

So there isn't an existing 'I' that can see through this . . .
Why would that be?

Really just semantics here I think. Not really referencing a separate entity "I". More like wondering. All this reading and other's experience seems to point to some "aha" moment or some sort of "pop". So there is an expectation there of similar experience. Like if someone says its hot out there today = John has experienced heat and hot days, so there is a basis for expectation of heat (before I leave air conditioning haha). When I read about these "aha" moments, I equate them to certain realizations I've experienced and expect something similar.

Why can't an 'I' be found?
Why do you always fail to find an 'I' using the senses?
Tell me.

I can't be found because there is no separate entity I.

Simply accept what you find, John. You are already there!

Maybe just as described above and harboring expectations based on past experiece. "I" am not harboring expectations, but there is a feeling that is expecting something.
Thanks,
John

[Xain]

Is it totally clear that 'I', this seperate self we think we are only appears when it is thought about.
Therefore 'I' is an idea . . . a thought . . .

If it is not clear maybe throw me a few questions and we'll go through them.

"I" am not harboring expectations, but there is a feeling that is expecting something.

Has there ever been an 'I' other than in a thought?
Will there ever be an 'I' other than in a thought?

If there hasn't been an 'I' in either of these cases, surely the ONLY THING that could happen would be to realise that.
At the same time, realise that there isn't anyone realising it? :-)

Any expectation is a subtle belief that something will change. What's going to change?
Is there a seperate self, an 'I' that could experience something?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,

Is it totally clear that 'I', this seperate self we think we are only appears when it is thought about.
Therefore 'I' is an idea . . . a thought . . .
If it is not clear maybe throw me a few questions and we'll go through them.

No real questions for you. I is obviously a thought only.

Has there ever been an 'I' other than in a thought?

nope

Will there ever be an 'I' other than in a thought?

No way of knowing that :)

If there hasn't been an 'I' in either of these cases, surely the ONLY THING that could happen would be to realise that.
At the same time, realise that there isn't anyone realising it? :-)

I like the realize there isn't anyone realizing it!

Any expectation is a subtle belief that something will change. What's going to change?
Is there a seperate self, an 'I' that could experience something?

Nothing has changed. There is no seperate self, and no I to experience things.
There is a bit of a sticking point AFA what's going to change/if anything's going to change.
I will be unable to post til next week (tuesday). I will have the opportunity to observe this - what is expected (if anything) to change, why/who is expecting this change.
I will post next week!
Thanks!
John

[Xain]

No problem, John.

There are a further six questions to ask as part of this guiding, but I'll only ask them when you are sure about things.

There is a bit of a sticking point AFA what's going to change/if anything's going to change.

Can you see that it is thought itself that makes these sticking points up?
I mean (conventionally speaking of course) if you rested without thoughts for a moment, is there an 'I'?
Is there a change being expected? Is there a problem? Is there an expectation?

No real questions for you. I is obviously a thought only.?

Good.
Providing you are 100% happy, I will go ahead and ask the questions.
They might provide further insights or uncover problem areas we can look at together.

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,
Sorry so late in responding, been backpacking since thursday. And happy to report that "I" finally "got it" on the trail that thursday evening.

Providing you are 100% happy, I will go ahead and ask the questions.

"I" am ready now.
Just FYI, I was hiking along, trying to look at the "see-er, see-ing, seen" dynamic and started wondering about my expectations and I tried (as done hudreds of times) to see if there were any doubts or fears. No doubts, but found the question - What if "I" don't like what "I" decide to do - and started to laugh and it became quite apparent that there was nothing to get and no one to get it. All cliche's I've read are true, but its like having a child - all you've read is true but you've got to have the experience to understand. So everything is exactly the same and it is different.
Thanks,
John

[matumba]

Hi Xain,
Thanks doesn't really do justice. But what you do is REALLY APPRECIATED by me - or whatever haha.
Will wait for your questions!
John

[Xain]

Just FYI, I was hiking along, trying to look at the "see-er, see-ing, seen" dynamic and started wondering about my expectations and I tried (as done hudreds of times) to see if there were any doubts or fears.

Great!
Once you've understood the principle, you don't need me any more. You can examine the thoughts and your experience yourself (conventionally speaking of course).

Ok - Here are the first three of the six questions. Have a go at answering them when you have a moment.
There is no rush.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Thanks Xain,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No.

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.

I feel a sense of relief by realizing there is no control. When I began (with you) I believed it, but hadn't really felt the experience of it (feeling like I had no control). There are a lot of words and phrases (no control, no decisions made, no "I"), but it was all about feeling there was a separate entity even though I couldn't find one logically. Now I see there is no separate entity.

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

As mentioned before, I was doing the same thing I have been doing for a while. Just looking. When it sunk in, it was amazingly clear that you (all my guides) were/are right on target by just looking at no "I". I did understand it logically and intuitively. The separation just disappeared while doing the EXACT same looking I had been doing. Everything became crystal clear and I thought this is what Xain was talking about. I had harbored some expectation and it was like I just wasn't getting it. The really weird part is that expectation was realized in a TOTALLY different way - there was no expectation, there was no one to realize the expectation. So, the feeling of an expectation or "me" not getting something was spot on - but it was totally wrong/different than what was expected. There was absolutely no mistaking it when first seen and it made me chuckle.
I think the Neuroscience and Free Will video on youtube helped me a lot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 6S9OidmNZM

[Xain]

Great, John.
Thank you.

Here are the final three questions:

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. (Feel free to use conventional language here)

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if possible.

6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. (Feel free to use conventional language here)

The illusion is one of control – I’ve heard it described as the cosmic joke which is true. But when you are caught up in the joke it is not fun at all. Everything seems very personal and (in my case) gave rise to many guilt feelings or even remorse. One feels like they are in charge – it appears as a cruel joke until you realize – then it is pretty humorous. I can only assume it starts before memory serves and seems to be thrust upon us by others (unintentionally). We form a self image based on thoughts and thoughts of thoughts. We project how we assume others see us – and believe it! Once it is realized, then nothing in life is different, but how it (life) affects us is very different – I still have all the “negative” emotions – anger, impatience, intolerance, etc. but they are seen in a very different light – not owned by anyone, just occurring for some unknown reason and it becomes fun to explore that unknown.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if possible.

Choice, free will, control etal– all are deceptions. Things happen – I really don’t know what makes them happen as I can only make assumptions. They happen just because. Still wondering how it works haha. I really don’t know what I’m responsible for… I used to think I was responsible for my own “spiritual progress” - Why did I come to LU? Why have I been searching for so long? Where did all this stuff start? Unending questions for which I could find no answers. Now I am responsible for nothing because there is no one to be responsible. This person/body is responsible for a bunch of stuff in life, but it seems to be doing pretty well without the previous identity!

6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?

Just would like to thank you all for your time and attention. If anyone is reading this looking for their own clue I can’t really help. For me the process unfolded with very few milestones but here are the ones I would mention:
Understanding through logic/intuition that decisions aren’t made by ME – That did not take very long as I believed it pretty quickly.
Frustration and then thinking I would never get it – ready to give up. I was close to throwing in the towel. Looking takes time and I felt I was making no progress. I would get frustrated at the same question of “WHO IS EXPECTING SOMETHING”? So it really helped me to go on that hike and get outside even though I live out in the country. If you are like I was and have that feeling of lack, then there is something you haven’t gotten and it was quite obvious for me when I got it, and it was nothing like I expected – even though I didn’t know what to expect.
All the aphorisms and cliché’s I read were true, but you won’t really get them until you see. And when you do, you won’t understand why you never saw it before!

So words do not do justice for the gratitude I feel toward you and the site!
Thanks again,
John

[Xain]

Your kind words are greatly appreciated, John - Thank you ♥

A few (perhaps) obvious questions:

I used to think I was responsible for my own “spiritual progress” - Why did I come to LU? Why have I been searching for so long? Where did all this stuff start? Unending questions for which I could find no answers

Was there an 'I' that came to LU? Or is that just a thought / an idea?
Has there been a 'you' searching or responsible for anything . . . ever?

Can you see that answers may come . . . but they are just thoughts and ideas. No 'real' separate self or person to be found. Not really 'wrong' or 'right' but simply the mind doing it's thing :-)

Xain ♥