Looking for a guide

[Jiten76]

Do you become suddenly aware? Is it anything more than a thought that says you were not aware?

it is definitely thought which says I was not aware.

Were you ever not aware? Can you find evidence?

this is making my mind freeze...I can find always conclusion that I was not aware..but not the moment when I am not aware..but can this mean that I am always aware?

just because I am not aware when I am sleeping....does not mean I have not slept?

Thanks
Jiten

[Jiten76]

I thought of writing my understanding of non duality...may be it will help me or you can point where I am getting stuck?

In awareness there is always an unquestioned thought of I which represents "me". there are a cluster of thoughts & feelings & sensations & associated patterns of emotion, reactions, responses which is understood as "me"...but by whom? self feeding thoughts? or just thoughts and thoughts and thoughts....

As I write this, I am more aware than usual..but then eyes want to close and thoughts would starts running..there is a pull against being aware and towards thoughts to keep appearing along with usual patterns of sensations/feelings and emotions..so this pull needs to get dropped for longer awareness ?? longer awareness is desired (by whom?)

thought appear that awareness should be so strong and longer that all the thoughts, feelings, sensations which define "me" should be seen as just what they are...as thoughts, feelings and sensations... (seems I have not explored feelings much)...

if a thought appears "oh I missed completing that work?" if it is seen as thought (by awareness?) then it would stop there...but if it is not seen as thought, then it is believed to be true (by whom?) and then whole train of thoughts along with feelings of poor me would keep on running, until suddenly awareness snaps back or there is some intervention to break this...sometime intervention will break it partially in the sense thoughts would stop but feeling of fear would be continuous present along with conclusion that I am weak/this is bad/I am not safe...

how do "I" bring this whole cluster of "me" in focus so that once and for all it becomes clear that there is no me?

[Tao]

Hi Jiten

I know you are prodding me to investigate "me"..not able to catch the moment where I can clearly see that there is no me..me is always the unquestioned, deep rooted assumed pattern of thinking, feeling and behaving..the moment I try to look at it, I don't find it and then it comes back when I am unware..

Then it's time to question it. If it is a belief, then we need to find the evidence to support the belief in actual experience. Otherwise the belief is unsupported and unreliable. This is why the belief seems so deep rooted, because it has gone unquestioned for so long. All you have to do is look directly at experience, and answer from there.

Regarding your last post, it is a common spiritual belief/understanding that 'I get lost in thoughts and I have to cultivate more awareness'. But we are questioning all beliefs here. This belief is unsupported. Like you say, who believes thoughts anyway? If we could find that entity, then the belief would be justified.

It is important that that all current non-dual or spiritual understanding is discarded for the sake of this inquiry. Just look to see what is really happening.

Don't be afraid to look, and to let go of old assumptions. Sometimes bringing beliefs into the light of awareness can bring up a lot of resistance or fear itself. Nothing will come to any harm, just observe directly.

Do you become suddenly aware? Is it anything more than a thought that says you were not aware?

it is definitely thought which says I was not aware.

Were you ever not aware? Can you find evidence?

this is making my mind freeze...I can find always conclusion that I was not aware..but not the moment when I am not aware..but can this mean that I am always aware?

ok..here I don't want to agree...when I become aware, it is also remembered that moments before lots of thoughts and emotions were going on...so it does mean that I was not aware..

It is good that you don't agree without seeing it for yourself. It has to be verified in actual experience, not formed as a belief. So you are aware of the thought that says ' I was not aware but now I am '.

Where is the evidence that you were not aware?

You say you remember thoughts and emotions going on. Is a memory something real from the past, or just a thought happening now?

If you remember the emotion, how do you remember it, do you go back to the past and obtain the exact same feeling that was (presumably) felt? Or does the feeling just arise now, with a thought alongside that says, 'this was how I felt back then'?

When do thoughts and feelings happen? Is it now, or in the past?

Thoughts say all kinds of things in the NOW, but if there is no evidence in actual experience to support what they say, then they are just beliefs with no validity in experience.

Please tell me which of the following sentences is most true in direct experience:

'I am awareness'

'I am a body'

Tao

[Jiten76]

I

t is important that that all current non-dual or spiritual understanding is discarded for the sake of this inquiry. Just look to see what is really happening.

I think I am open to discard them..just wanted to inform you.

Don't be afraid to look, and to let go of old assumptions. Sometimes bringing beliefs into the light of awareness can bring up a lot of resistance or fear itself. Nothing will come to any harm, just observe directly

Thanks..will do.

You say you remember thoughts and emotions going on. Is a memory something real from the past, or just a thought happening now?

Thoughts are happening now.

If you remember the emotion, how do you remember it, do you go back to the past and obtain the exact same feeling that was (presumably) felt? Or does the feeling just arise now, with a thought alongside that says, 'this was how I felt back then'?
When do thoughts and feelings happen? Is it now, or in the past?

Feelings arise now with a thought that says 'this is how I felt back then'. Feelings and thought happen now.

Thoughts say all kinds of things in the NOW, but if there is no evidence in actual experience to support what they say, then they are just beliefs with no validity in experience.

well..i am scared..99.99% of what thoughts say in now do not have validity in immediate direct experience. so how to live by discarding every thought?

Please tell me which of the following sentences is most true in direct experience:

'I am awareness'

'I am a body'

if I look at the body..need thought to say, its my body or that face is me...but when I close my eyes I experience only few sensation..mind assumes that there is neck and leg and other parts but experience of them is as few sensations here and there.

[Tao]

Hi Jiten

Feelings arise now with a thought that says 'this is how I felt back then'. Feelings and thought happen now.

Good seeing. So is there anything that can happen in the past, or does it all happen NOW?

Thoughts say all kinds of things in the NOW, but if there is no evidence in actual experience to support what they say, then they are just beliefs with no validity in experience.

well..i am scared..99.99% of what thoughts say in now do not have validity in immediate direct experience. so how to live by discarding every thought?

You don't have to do anything here. The majority of thoughts are necessary and they allow us to communicate on this subject, so it's not living without thoughts altogether. Thoughts continue as they do. Understanding will realign itself in time, as things are seen. So we just look at the belief that there is a separate entity and see if it is true. If it is true then we must be able to find the 'me' that we assume is there.

Please tell me which of the following sentences is most true in direct experience:

'I am awareness'

'I am a body'

if I look at the body..need thought to say, its my body or that face is me...but when I close my eyes I experience only few sensation..mind assumes that there is neck and leg and other parts but experience of them is as few sensations here and there

Excellent looking. So it requires thought to say these sensations are coming from the body. Can you be sure that these sensations are coming from the body? Close your eyes again and have a look. Is neck / leg / body anything other than an idea?

Please tell me which of the following sentences is most true in direct experience:

'Awareness comes from the body'

'Body is an idea or a thought that happens now, within awareness.'

Tao

[Jiten76]

Good seeing. So is there anything that can happen in the past, or does it all happen NOW?

when i remember past, remembrance happen now. whatever i am imagining (that it happened in the past) is my imagination now so all happens in now is clear...nothing (now) happens in Past..but things did happen in past right? is there something i am not understanding?

Can you be sure that these sensations are coming from the body? Close your eyes again and have a look. Is neck / leg / body anything other than an idea?

I can't be sure that sensations are coming from body..but i will recheck again and share my observation.

Please tell me which of the following sentences is most true in direct experience:

'Awareness comes from the body'

Awareness does not comes from my body. When i close my eyes and observe the sensations then sound in other room or sound on the road and sensations of body somehow all appear to be in a common awareness with no distance unless thought says so...but will observe more.

'Body is an idea or a thought that happens now, within awareness.'

will have to check. will get back.

Thanks
Jiten

[Tao]

Hi Jiten

when i remember past, remembrance happen now. whatever i am imagining (that it happened in the past) is my imagination now so all happens in now is clear...nothing (now) happens in Past..but things did happen in past right? is there something i am not understanding?

Great. So you say nothing (now) happens in past. Is there anything that doesn't happen now?

'things happened in the past' - does this point to something real? Or is it just a thought happening now? What does the past look like? What does it contain?

Can you find a past other than a thought happening now?

Awareness does not comes from my body. When i close my eyes and observe the sensations then sound in other room or sound on the road and sensations of body somehow all appear to be in a common awareness with no distance unless thought says so...but will observe more.

Yes excellent that this is seen. Is anything of any distance from awareness?

Does awareness have a 'location'?

I can't be sure that sensations are coming from body..but i will recheck again and share my observation.

'Body is an idea or a thought that happens now, within awareness.'

will have to check. will get back.

If you close your eyes, what do you know of a body? With eyes closed, is there a body in actual experience? What is the body?

Tao

[Jiten76]

Hi Tao

'things happened in the past' - does this point to something real? Or is it just a thought happening now?

There is lot of resistance in mind for the obvious. "things happened in the past" points to some thoughts or images in mind which happen now.

but thought comes that I passed graduation, joined this firm years ago in past. and mind shouts that it did happen and is valuable and what does it matter if it is real or not?

Thanks
Jitendra

[Jiten76]

Hi Tao,

'

things happened in the past' - does this point to something real? Or is it just a thought happening now? What does the past look like? What does it contain?

Can you find a past other than a thought happening now?

I find this question is very relevant for me to look. finding huge huge resistance...just not able to hold this question in awareness to see what it imply..

I also realized that most of the time mind keeps on imagining that this is what that person is thinking about me now or this work is probably coming my way..or many other things...most of them have a common feeling of being insecure....

If remembering past which happens always in NOW and does not point to anything real then same is true for all imagination whether it is about past, present or future...

will explore this further and get back.

Thanks
Jitendra

[Jiten76]

Hi Tao,

things happened in the past' - does this point to something real?Or is it just a thought happening now?

Things happened in the past --- This does not point to anything real accept that it is thought, feelings and sensations happening now. along with explicit or implicit thought that this happened in the past.

What does the past look like?

Past appears as thoughts, feelings, sensation now....sometime subsequent thoughts would keep coming ( I think that's the believing part). else thoughts snaps and earlier thoughts are seen as thought happening now.

What does it contain?

actually past is nothing but thoughts appearing now so there is nothing called past...its all happening now with a thought which says this happened in the past.

Can you find a past other than a thought happening now?

[/quote]

No..i can't find a past other than thought happening now

Thanks
Jitendra

[Tao]

Things happened in the past --- This does not point to anything real accept that it is thought, feelings and sensations happening now. along with explicit or implicit thought that this happened in the past.

Past appears as thoughts, feelings, sensation now....sometime subsequent thoughts would keep coming ( I think that's the believing part). else thoughts snaps and earlier thoughts are seen as thought happening now.

actually past is nothing but thoughts appearing now so there is nothing called past...its all happening now with a thought which says this happened in the past.

Can you find a past other than a thought happening now?

No..i can't find a past other than thought happening now

Hi Jitendra,

Excellent looking. So it is clear that 'past' has no reality, other than thoughts and sensations happening now. Past is a story, happening now.

Very good also that you noticed the 'believing' part was just subsequent thoughts (and perhaps sensations?). Perhaps we could confirm the following here:

Does anything believe thoughts?

If remembering past which happens always in NOW and does not point to anything real then same is true for all imagination whether it is about past, present or future...

Yes. Thoughts is just imagination, happening now. Can you find a past, present, or future in actual experience?

Do thoughts point to anything real? Thoughts themselves are real, happening, now. But does the 'content' of the thought have any reality?

Also, you say there is a lot of resistance in looking at this. When the resistance comes up - have a look:

What is resistance? What is resisting what, in actual experience?

Is resisting anything more than thoughts and sensations happening now?

Tao

[Jiten76]

Hi Tao,

Does anything believe thoughts?

Actually i had guessed that believing thought is nothing but more thoughts occurring..had not seen it..is there a way to see it...whenever train of thoughts are running, awareness is not there..

i have not yet explored the question "am i ever not aware?" :-(... any pointer will be helpful.

Do thoughts point to anything real?

if thought is about a table which is present in the room...does it not point to something real?? what do you mean by real?

Thoughts themselves are real, happening, now. But does the 'content' of the thought have any reality?

Most of the time content of thoughts are not real but do u mean they are never real? i look at the book and word comes to mind "book"... but when look at the thing without calling it book and somehow the word "book" and the thing do not seem to be related...

What is resistance? What is resisting what, in actual experience?
Is resisting anything more than thoughts and sensations happening now?

Will get back on this

Tao[/quote]

[Tao]

Hi Jiten

Actually i had guessed that believing thought is nothing but more thoughts occurring..had not seen it..is there a way to see it...whenever train of thoughts are running, awareness is not there..

i have not yet explored the question "am i ever not aware?" :-(... any pointer will be helpful.

Do you have any experience of being unaware? If so, can you describe what un-awareness is like?

You are aware of a thought that says 'I was lost in thoughts and unaware', but this isn't an experience of unawareness, this is experience of a thought happening now - hence awareness.

So where is this un-awareness?

if thought is about a table which is present in the room...does it not point to something real?? what do you mean by real?

What is real about the table? It is undeniable that something is known, perhaps light, colour, shape of colours, but what defines this experience as 'table in the room'?

What do you know about the table, in direct experience?

Looking at the raw experience of 'table', is it anything more than just light and colour, and shape?

Most of the time content of thoughts are not real but do u mean they are never real? i look at the book and word comes to mind "book"... but when look at the thing without calling it book and somehow the word "book" and the thing do not seem to be related...

Exactly, What tells you it is a book? Book is an idea, not raw experience. What happens if thoughts don't label it 'book'. What is it then?

What is resistance? What is resisting what, in actual experience?
Is resisting anything more than thoughts and sensations happening now?

Will get back on this

Go to the feeling of resisting, find the entity that is resisting, don't just assume it is not there, keep looking.

Tao

[Jiten76]

Thanks Tao.

I am going out and may not be able to respond till sunday. but will keep working on.

Thanks
Jiten

[Tao]

ok thanks for letting me know