Requesting a guide please

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

Who or what needs to know why thoughts arise? Isn't the need to know just another thought?
Can a thought need to know a thought?

Yes, that is what I was saying. I am simply recognizing that there is a "need to know" thought that arises and that in fact it is just a thought, nothing more.

I’m not sure what is meant here. How does an ‘emptiness idea get physically translated’? How is emptiness palpable in a physical sense? Can you describe it as plainly as you can? How does it manifest?

This emptiness thought, as do many or all thoughts, have physical effects. I am not saying that the original thought is valid because it has a physical component. This is only a recognition of what is happening. There was a thought, there was physical component, nothing more. Previously I had an idea that this emptiness feeling had meaning, I view that differently now, only as another arising.

What ‘it’? Can you be more specific? What is ‘it’, in direct experience? Take a good look, and let me know if you can find ‘it’.

Here I am knowingly using the label "It" to reference my not knowing. I don't know how manifesting occurs in the moment but it is clear that a lot does happen and that there isn't an I here making it happen. I don't know if there really is an "It", just a label to describe the unknowable within/behind manifestation. I do see the questioning and labeling as a mental abstraction and a departure from direct experience. I guess my message here is "I Don't Know".

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim

Thanks for your clarifications.

I would like you to go somewhere and sit still. Out in nature is good, but it does not have to be.
Take a notebook with you. Give me a ten-minute 'Slice of Life'. Write down all that is experienced. Just what is happening, what is alive, right now. Notice the seeing, the hearing, the smelling, the tasting, the touching. Write it all down, without discrimination or selection.
If a thought pops up, just write it down as ‘the thought that …’, don’t get involved with the content of it, that is not the purpose of this exercise. Just let it pass like a train that you do not board.
Let me have what you write.
All that happening of the moment, that's WHAT IS, everything else is mental projection, WHAT IS NOT.
In this happening, can you see/find a separate entity, a ‘me’, experiencing the world from behind the eyes? Or is ‘Jim’ part of this unfolding of the moment?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

I was unable to get outside as it is over 33 deg c and quite humid right now. The following is a transcript of the 10 minute session as you instructed. Perceptions change too rapidly to capture them all so these are what I was able to record.

Hearing - air moving from overhead fan
Touching - right fingers on journal page
Sensing - mild headache, sides and forehead
Notice a breath, another breath - chest rises and falls
Sense - left had resting on desk
Sense - abdomen, internal sensation, glowing
Thought - wasn't clear, then - attention moves faster than they can be written down
See - rims of eye glasses, items on desk, computer screen colors - bright white
See - paper moving in the breeze and red mouse
Sense - itch right forehead, then around nose
Thought - perceptions move faster than they can be captured on paper
Sense - swallow, backside pressure on chair, mild headache
Sense - heartbeat, then feel pulsing in the head
Sense - eyes heavy
See - deep blue water on computer screen
Sense - breeze on arms, body feels warm, heart palpitation, breath - air moving against inside of nostrils, face relaxes
See - the blue mechanical pencil
Hear - clock ticking, banging dishes, water running
Thought - will have to type this up
Sense - bottom of feet, itch on finger of left hand
Swallow - feel the liquid move down the throat
Thinking - I'm looking around the room but not fixed on anything
Thinking - this is the same exercise as in my book
Thinking - 10 minutes are up

There was no tendency to drift into thought or to follow through on any thought.

There is a "Jim" thought that has become clearer in that it now appears as and is easily recognized as just that, only a thought. During this exercise that "Jim" thought is there but in the background resulting in a slight "me perceiving that" feeling. It did not come forward in perception like the observations recorded above. At other times it does come forward more frequently, is seen for what it is, a passing thought, and easily dismissed. At those times there is a sense of increased clarity and a feeling of being lighter and a feeling of "no me" just this, whatever is happening at the time. I understand that with clear seeing there should not be this sometimes "me" sometimes "no me" but constancy in "no me". Maybe this understanding is incorrect.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim,

I understand that with clear seeing there should not be this sometimes "me" sometimes "no me" but constancy in "no me". Maybe this understanding is incorrect.

Where does this ‘understanding’ come from? Is it second-hand knowledge heard or read somewhere? Why does it take precedence over your own experience? When it is first seen that ‘I’, me’ is only an idea, a thought, a period of ‘being’ and ‘meing’ follows, as every thought comes up for questioning.
As soon as we use the words ‘should’, ‘should not’, our thinking is in conflict with WHAT IS, we are saying ‘not this’. We are looking for an alternative that only exists as a mental projection.
As to the awareness of ‘no me’ which you say is not constant, think of other facts you know, like there is no Santa. Are you continuously aware that there is no Santa? Or does the awareness only show up when you are asked about it? How about 2+2=4. Is that a fact of which you are continuously aware? 
Indeed, is there anything of which you are continuously aware?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

The understanding of no me will not be lost, I am now certain of that. Before this dialog I was not sure of that. It will take time for embodied beliefs and habits to arise in their own time and then dissolve in the light of this understanding. As that happens the load will lighten and direct experience will become more frequent and clear, doubts will recede.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim

The understanding of no me will not be lost, I am now certain of that.

Wow there’s a juicy statement to get our teeth into.
1) What is ‘the understanding of no me’? Take a good look, in your most immediate experience. Is it a happening of this moment? Is it a thought? Is it the content of a thought structure?
2) Is ‘no me’ something to understand with the mind or is it a fact?
3) ‘I am now certain of that’. Can you be certain of anything, in the future? Look around you. Where is that future? Can you know for sure what will happen in the next minute?

As that happens the load will lighten and direct experience will become more frequent and clear, doubts will recede.

4) How about clearing up those doubts now? What are these doubts? Can you identify them, so we can look at them together?

Thanks!

Fred

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

1. There are no words that can be used to communicate about the no self condition without being vulnerable to another challenge. The words in the previous sentence are an opening to further inquiry - "is the no self condition just a thought?" Clearly the words used in my feeble attempt to communicate are a thought and not the reality. There seems to be a catch 22 here.

2. The mental process starts where it is at the beginning of the inquiry process, follows a path, then mind drops as a necessary process at the gate. What remains? Again, no words. This is, there is only life living. Any words used to contextualize "this" will end up subject to further inquiry.

3. Is the absence of doubt certainty? Isn't certainty a way of expressing in another word "this is it?" That is where this comes from. I do see mental processing for what it is. But, mental processing is, and is the means available to express (on a blog anyway). It is a process of expression using symbols to hopefully reference reality; many times to not reference any reality, just more symbols. I see this but am still communicating using symbols. No problem.

4. The doubts are part of the mental process. The mental process is the result of years of conditioning plus some DNA thrown in. It doesn't just go away. Having the "this is it" understanding and experience (please know that understanding and experience are the only words I have to describe this state of no self, and that the word state is just another word I have to trump understanding and experience as inferior words and is itself an inferior word) I see doubt simply as mental process, thought, but one that is a strong habit. A strong habit is probably what I fear. I understand that many realized people fall back, it happens.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim

1)

There are no words that can be used to communicate about the no self condition without being vulnerable to another challenge. The words in the previous sentence are an opening to further inquiry - "is the no self condition just a thought?" Clearly the words used in my feeble attempt to communicate are a thought and not the reality. There seems to be a catch 22 here.

Yes, in direct experience, ‘no self condition’ are just a string of sounds/words. Do these point to any reality, in the actual happening of this moment? You see, Jim, if I ask you to point to the part of reality that is pointed to with the words ‘table’, ‘chair’, ‘computer’, you will most likely point to some ‘objects’ that resemble the ideas behind these sounds and words.
Now if I ask you to point to a ‘self’ or ‘a no self condition’, what will you point to? Have a good look and let me know what you find, not in your thoughts, but in your actual experience.

2)

The mental process starts where it is at the beginning of the inquiry process, follows a path, then mind drops as a necessary process at the gate. What remains? Again, no words. This is, there is only life living. Any words used to contextualize "this" will end up subject to further inquiry.

This does not answer the question: Is the seeing of no self an understanding or is it a fact?
Never mind ‘paths’, ‘starts’, ‘ends’, ‘beginning’, ‘process’, that is all thought stuff. Stories our minds tell. Not real.
What is real is what IS, right now. Realisation, liberation, clarity are all in this moment only. So the question is always: Is clarity happening now? … and now? … and now?

3) For question 4, you did not really give me any example of doubt that still arises. Instead you gave me a definition of what doubt is.
If I ask you to tell me honestly: "would you say you have seen through the illusion of self, fully and unequivocally?" What, if any, doubt, comes up? Can you give me examples?

Thanks!

Fred

[jima54]

Fred,

I'll have to respond late today or tomorrow morning.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Thanks for letting me know, Jim, I look forward to your answers.
Fred

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

I am taking some time to renew my inquiry and take an honest look. Honesty/truth is in being present now, that is how it feels. I have had some breakthroughs in the past hence my proclaiming that I get it. But something is not complete. I am sitting in truth/presence looking at this knot and looking at the looking as well. I will keep you posted.

Many thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim
No problem, thanks for letting me know and let me know when you are ready to continue.

I have had some breakthroughs in the past hence my proclaiming that I get it.

Keep looking upstream. Who or what is claiming to have had some breakthroughs? Who or what is proclaiming that ‘it’ gets it? Who or what can choose to sit in truth/presence or not?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

Checking in with an update.

One thing that has been frustrating me with this dialog is my inclination to view this as a process and then continually being met with responses that point only to the (insert your own word here please) and acknowledge no validity to process. While I can sense that these pointers are correct I am stuck in process on this side for now. When the mental process reconciles some issues then I suppose the switch will flip and I will fully realize the truth, but apparently that is not now. My thought of a switch is not real and has no substance, I know this but it doesn't seem to matter right now. There are other barriers at hand (although a non-dual purist will say barriers don't really exist) besides my getting clarity on the vacancy of thought.

In my process of inquiry this is where I seem to be - the transparency of thoughts is very clear after quite a bit of looking at them, where they come from (nowhere), the content (mostly useless fantasy). This occurred approximately 6 weeks ago and becomes more a part of my daily experience and has resulted in the experience of carrying less weight. Next up are feelings. Many older recurring feelings are gaining the same transparency as thought, but one or two still remain that aren't yet clear to me but are barriers to releasing into what is. Then I see a self identity that is like a persistent shadow. This I am beginning to see more clearly but it remains in place. There are moments of clarity when looking at this. I see my thought projection of my self image, it has a particular quality to it that is fairly consistent and it is coming into focus.

With all of the above I am looking at conceptual vs non-conceptual reality. It is very clear that I have spent a lifetime build my conceptual world and that it is a habit that won't just fall away. It can and it will once I am ripe, whatever that means. This mind is not letting go, very stubborn.

I took time over the weekend and am taking time from work now to reduce distractions and bring more altruistic intensity to the inquiry.

Thanks,
Jim

[Freddi]

Hi Jim

Thank you for your honesty in telling me where you’re at.

One thing that has been frustrating me with this dialog is my inclination to view this as a process and then continually being met with responses that point only to the (insert your own word here please) and acknowledge no validity to process.

Good to notice. A sense of frustration is what's happening, right now. Let’s not push it away, let's not resist it, instead, let’s invite it fully to this investigation, like a long-lost relative at the door, embrace it.
Sit quietly and spend some time with these thoughts and the feelings triggered. Thoughts like ‘I am stuck in process right now’, ‘I will realise the truth, but that is not now’.
Stay with these and the sensations triggered. How does this sense of frustration manifest itself? Any physical attributes? Note them down. Maybe a contraction in the stomach area? Maybe a headache? A furrowed brow? Do these amount to a ‘frustration’? How do these relate to a ‘me stuck in process’?
Let these feelings speak to you. See what they want to protect. Is there anything behind them?
Really take some time with this feeling of frustration and let me know what comes up.

It is very clear that I have spent a lifetime build my conceptual world and that it is a habit that won't just fall away.

Welcome to the Club! We’ve all spent a lifetime of believing this thought-up world. And you’re right, habitual thinking, residual conditioning does not fall away at once. I see it more like a row of dominoes. The first is the illusion of a separate ‘me’, which, when it is shot through, leads on to the next one, then the next one. All beliefs and thoughts are coming up to be questioned, to be burnt up in the fire of attention and investigated, digested. That can take a while, ultimately a life time, whatever that is.
That is why, at LU, we have some ‘support groups’, where ‘people’ who have seen through the illusion of the separate self (when this process is complete) are invited to discuss, exchange, ask questions of others, guides, etc. That can be very useful.

It can and it will once I am ripe, whatever that means. This mind is not letting go, very stubborn

Here are some good thoughts to look at, question them as they come up, don't leave any stone unturned in this inquiry. Sit quietly and look around you. Where is that future time where ‘you’ will be ripe? Is it anywhere, apart from in your imagination? How do you know ripeness is not present right now? There are words on a screen and an apparent character called 'Jim' sitting and questioning. What is that but ripeness?
What mind is not letting go? What is the mind? A thought? A series of thought? Can a thought choose to let go or not?

I look forward to reading what comes up with these and during your deep looking into the feeling of frustration.

Warm wishes

Fred

[jima54]

Hi Fred,

On frustration - Two things have come up.

First - how dare anyone challenge my right to have My Process! My Process is apparently my mental game to avoid something, that became the next question.

Second - what came up was that I am avoiding what I perceive to be unpleasant. This is what frustration is, the mental process fighting what is. This is what I saw in this particular case but then quickly it became clearer that this frustration is a prevailing condition in response to lots of things, not just this.

So it occurred to me to begin watching the mental/physical reaction closely for incidents of frustration, repelling, etc. Doing this quickly led to seeing just how pervasive this response is. It seems like an accepted condition. This led to allowing. By seeing the mental/physical reaction to situations deemed undesirable more clearly I was able to remove from it and just watch and let it go by. This led to a realization that situations deemed unpleasant by the mental conditioning are really good opportunities to watch, allow, and then be with what is because the mental/physical response is easier to see. I'm still new at it but there are definitely results. The objectifying of this mental/physical process becomes clearer when doing this. I see where it becomes no longer "a doing" but just being with the flow of what is happening without investing in any of it. The entire sense of the false self image seems to built on top of this seed idea of avoidance or "not good enough". When I am watching and allowing like this there is no self in the mix.

About letting go -

The idea I have created called letting go took on a life of it's own. By doing the above letting go seems to be a natural by-product. The idea of letting go is completely in opposition to the huge avoidance frustration generation machine in the common mental/physical process, so the battle is staged resulting in even more frustration. It can't be won with force, there just needs to be a clear recognition of the false self image then the letting go is natural.

Thanks,
Jim