Dridhamati - will you be my guide?

[Jai Ananda]

Hi Dridhamati,

That last tip about having the “I” lift my arm was actually very helpful. Pretty black & white that the “I” is not behind it. So I am questioning what is behind it? The non-self, some awareness and/or are our responses ‘automatic’ from previous conditioning or is there some force/energy we all share that guides us?

I realized I am at a place that is just going to need time to explore and be curious. I am observing the ability to briefly have ‘direct experience’ than finding myself ‘conceptualizing’ (thinking, labeling, controlling . . .). It often depends on how mindful I am.

At this time it is easier for me when I am off on my own walking the neighborhood or parks, sometimes shutting my eyes so my other senses get stronger - my vision softens, I notice subtle smells and textures, hear the birds, feel the breeze, my feet walking on the ground and feeling the pavement or grass underneath my foot, my mind relaxes (even my skull becomes less tense) and I let go - it begins to feel like merging into the present. I find I need to really slooooooowwwwwwwww down to have that direct experience. I have not really experienced it being in conversation with others, I tried last night while playing cards with my partner, but not able to stay with it long.

It is the weekend which will allow me more quiet time to explore. I plan to do a Google and/or YouTube search on 'how decisions are made in the brain.'

Any feedback and or pointers or questions are helpful.
With gratitude, Jai Ananda

[dridhamati]

Hi Jai Ananda,

I realized I am at a place that is just going to need time to explore and be curious. I am observing the ability to briefly have ‘direct experience’ than finding myself ‘conceptualizing’ (thinking, labeling, controlling . . .). It often depends on how mindful I am.

Yes, exploration is called for, continuously I'd say, along this path. So please feel free to explore from the perspective of Direct experience.
Interesting you would mention the word 'mindfulness'. Indeed I too have found mindfulness very useful with my explorations with direct experience.
Remember the 'purpose' of this investigation though: realising beyond doubt, beyond the intellect, the illusory nature of the "self". So when exploring with direct experience, please keep this in mind, and keep looking for this "self".

That last tip about having the “I” lift my arm was actually very helpful. Pretty black & white that the “I” is not behind it. So I am questioning what is behind it? The non-self, some awareness and/or are our responses ‘automatic’ from previous conditioning or is there some force/energy we all share that guides us?

The suggestion at this stage is to just observe the absence of an "I", rather than attempt to 'fill in the gap' so to speak.
As you alluded to above (the conceptualisation bit), one of the favorite activities of the mind is to seek out and provide an explanation for everything, even if said explanation sometimes doesn't make sense. It is very tempting at this point to replace the "self/I" with another illusory 'thing', responsible for the actions performed by the organism called Jai Ananda, or Dridhamati or...

The trick is to avoid this blatant trap, to surrender to the mystery and simply observe the flow of life. Notice the times spent in direct experience, notice the times out of it (conceptualizing perhaps), notice the extraordinary absence of a "self" anywhere in this continuous flow.

Good work.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Jai Ananda]

Hi Dridhammati,

Remember the 'purpose' of this investigation though: realising beyond doubt, beyond the intellect, the illusory nature of the "self". So when exploring with direct experience, please keep this in mind, and keep looking for this "self".

The trick is to avoid this blatant trap, to surrender to the mystery and simply observe the flow of life. Notice the times spent in direct experience, notice the times out of it (conceptualizing perhaps), notice the extraordinary absence of a "self" anywhere in this continuous flow.

Thank you for the reminders! My mind or is it my "I" was caught in figuring it out. . . and I observe still is as I write this, but I am also aware it is just happening, my fingers are just typing, birds are singing, a cat is near, the light is dancing outside on greens of trees and bushes, it is a soft moment. Wondering though, if there is too much labeling?

Will continue to look for "self."

With gratitude, Jai Ananda

[Jai Ananda]

Hi Dridhammati,

I am getting how the "I, me, myself" is not behind the decisions or movement. I did a google search about decision making and the brain and read fascinating information. I now have a hard time believing that “I” thought that “I” was in control of it. I do still find that it is taking a while for this to sink in. It is like an “Aha” moment, and then an inner challenge of questioning then who is in control (trying to drop that!) and sometimes a forgetfulness.

As I practice direct experience more with searching for the "me" and going slower to be more in touch with the senses and the subtleties, I wonder about a few things. One is as I am experiencing pain, is it my pain or just pain? If it is unpleasant, am I labeling it unpleasant and pain so that I am conceptualizing the experience? Is there a choice to experience this differently?

Another question is when I am doing a loving-kindness practice focusing on 'myself' . . . how does that now work? I am playing with it and I can see that there is no self and that the practice of loving-kindness is boundless, but the practice I do has particular exercises that focuses on an actual picture of myself, embracing myself, looking in the mirror and repeating loving words to myself, etc. . . . feel some confusion about that.

When I get moving and into projects and/or activities I seem to lose this sense of no self. I kept playing with it yesterday as I was with some friends. I found it easier to do with a child then with an adult.

A little history (if even necessary!) is that this is challenging as I am a very active ADD person, usually jumping from one thing to the next, accomplishing projects and activities and judging my capability/self-worth on what I have done. I have worked with this many years with meditation, yoga and mindfulness practice. Yet, I am finding this is really slowing me down and I believe actually enjoying living more. I am falling behind on things, but re-evaluating priorities. I do wish to keep up this slowing down though (I am almost going at a snail’s pace) and have mixed feeling about going back to work tomorrow. I do see that in this slowing down to be present with direct experience that I am not "accomplishing as much" if that even matters . . . might more so at work.

with gratitude, Jai Ananda

[dridhamati]

Hi Jai Ananda,

A lot being observed and many relevant questions.

I am getting how the "I, me, myself" is not behind the decisions or movement ... I now have a hard time believing that “I” thought that “I” was in control of it. I do still find that it is taking a while for this to sink in. It is like an “Aha” moment, and then an inner challenge of questioning then who is in control (trying to drop that!) and sometimes a forgetfulness.

'"I" thought that "I" was in control of it.'
That's exactly it. A thought stating it is in control.
Now what about the questioning after the "Aha" moment. What is questioning if not thoughts.
You placed an object on a table. You called it 'mug', but when you actually observed it in direct experience, where did the 'mug' exist? On the table or in the mind as a thought?
So the question is: how much purchase do you want to give this thought called "I" that claims control?

... One is as I am experiencing pain, is it my pain or just pain?...

Good questions in this paragraph, whose answers will become apparent very soon. Can we get back to them later?

Another question is when I am doing a loving-kindness practice focusing on 'myself'...

More good questions in this paragraph, whose answers will become apparent very soon. Can we get back to them later?

When I get moving and into projects and/or activities I seem to lose this sense of no self. I kept playing with it yesterday as I was with some friends. I found it easier to do with a child then with an adult.

Can you please explain this 'losing this sense of no self'?
I do not understand what you mean here.

A little history (if even necessary!) is that this is challenging as I am a very active ADD person, usually jumping from one thing to the next, accomplishing projects and activities and judging my capability/self-worth on what I have done. I have worked with this many years with meditation, yoga and mindfulness practice. Yet, I am finding this is really slowing me down and I believe actually enjoying living more. I am falling behind on things, but re-evaluating priorities. I do wish to keep up this slowing down though (I am almost going at a snail’s pace) and have mixed feeling about going back to work tomorrow. I do see that in this slowing down to be present with direct experience that I am not "accomplishing as much" if that even matters . . . might more so at work.

It is worth mentioning at this point that direct experience is exactly that: directly experiencing.
There is no suggestion of limiting the scope of what can be experienced, simply because everything that the 6 senses perceive is experience.
So there is what is experienced when walking alone in the park; there is what is experienced when interacting with friends and children; and there is what is experienced with the various activities at work.
Wherever the organism called Jai Ananda happens to be, whatever it happens to be doing, experiencing will happen, it's as simple as that. And some of that experience will also be thoughts, arising and passing.
In a previous post you said "but I am also aware it is just happening, my fingers are just typing, birds are singing..." Indeed it is just happening.
So when at work tomorrow, if you have a couple of minutes between two tasks, noticed how it all just happened.

Have a good day! :-)
All the best
Dridhamati

[Jai Ananda]

Good morning,

I would like to first share my experience this morning. Listening to some of the LU audios and hearing last night – “that it is not about being quiet.” (Quiet/slowing down has been key for me to ‘direct experience’ from the six senses.) So, this morning in bed, getting up, pulling food together, then driving to work and bringing awareness to experience – connecting with the senses, there were observations. (The sense of sight is strongest with thoughts/stories/ conceptualizing quickly jumping in so often I shut my eyes to open up to the experience - not easy to do when driving :O).

Observing the thoughts, the energy created from the thoughts, and the experience this morning was tough as the experience was a struggle since the feelings and sensations that were being perceived with thoughts were unpleasant. I just stayed with it and continued to observe and ask, “Where is ‘I, me, myself’?” Even though there was a sense of no-self and being an observer (?) the experience was a place of discomfort. It is hard to stay detached (?) from and wondering if the no-self is detached when observing and/or experiencing? When there is an uncomfotable experience can it become different OR can the experience be changed?

In response to your note:Yes, we can wait on the questions of pain and loving kindness practice.

Jai Ananda wrote: When I get moving and into projects and/or activities I seem to lose this sense of no self. I kept playing with it yesterday as I was with some friends. I found it easier to do with a child then with an adult. Can you please explain this 'losing this sense of no self'? I do not understand what you mean here.

Maybe the best way to say it is that time seems to move quickly and my experience blurs – I become busy and distracted with the perception of thoughts. ??? Maybe it is less mindfulness.

Maybe when direct experience perception is happening it feels more real and alive and present. When it is not present there seems to be forgetfulness and moments missed. Maybe there is too much reading into this and that even the experience of moving quickly and mindlessness is the experience.

So when at work tomorrow, if you have a couple of minutes between two tasks, noticed how it all just happened.

I am at work today and will do that.


With gratitude for your presence, time and responses, Jai Ananda

[Jai Ananda]

Wondering about feelings and the no-self? Are feelings created by thoughts/stories and conceptualizing?

[dridhamati]

Hi Jai Ananda,

I would like to first share my experience this morning. Listening to some of the LU audios and hearing last night – “that it is not about being quiet.”

I'm not sure what is meant by that [that it is not about being quiet].
My take is that it's not about anything other than experience. Quiet, loud, slow, fast, are all labels stuck on how experience is perceived. Is one better than another? That is not known here.

Even though there was a sense of no-self and being an observer (?) the experience was a place of discomfort. It is hard to stay detached (?) from and wondering if the no-self is detached when observing and/or experiencing? When there is an uncomfotable experience can it become different OR can the experience be changed?
Wondering about feelings and the no-self? Are feelings created by thoughts/stories and conceptualizing?

"...wondering if the no-self is detached..." Just to make sure here: no-self isn't a 'thing' to be/become anything. "No-self" is an aberration only possible with language, and vaguely points to the fact that "self" has no inherent existence.
Other than that, this is an interesting experience: the thoughts are observed, and found unpleasant. And more generally, an experience is observed and found unpleasant. Rather than answer the question, here is another question:
Is there actually anything in the experience that is unpleasant, or is 'unpleasant' an added label?

Maybe the best way to say it is that time seems to move quickly and my experience blurs – I become busy and distracted with the perception of thoughts. ??? Maybe it is less mindfulness.
Maybe when direct experience perception is happening it feels more real and alive and present. When it is not present there seems to be forgetfulness and moments missed.

Thank you for the clarification.

Maybe there is too much reading into this and that even the experience of moving quickly and mindlessness is the experience.

All experience, just happening. :-)

One thing I am noticing, particularly in the last two posts, is the mental exercises around experience.
Everything -and that is everything- that the 6 senses perceive falls under experience, no exception is known. Which means conceptualisation is an observable experience, so is mindlessness, moving quickly, and so on.
The reasons for spending time on direct experience are: to reconnect with what the senses actually perceive (something by and large omitted in 'normal' life), and observe the mind hijack the experience and conceptualise it (label it, judge it, etc.)
So when it is suggested to 'just observe what happens', it means exactly that.

All the best,
Dridhamati

[Jai Ananda]

Hi Dridhammati,

It has been a few interesting days. I find myself tripping over my own interpretations/thoughts, etc.

So when it is suggested to 'just observe what happens', it means exactly that.

So enough of my mind chatter – let me try to ‘just observe what happens.’

Right now I plan to let go some more, be more aware of the senses allowing them to get stronger, watch how the thoughts come in and direct the experience into a particular story/concept and try to stay as observer by staying in touch with the senses/experience (not so much the thought about the thoughts or thoughts about the experience).

I have a sense of the self not being there behind all this, but that there are thoughts and stories (new & old) that play and create this “I” and a separation from experience. The tougher part to understand is the feeling/emotional (felt senses?) that come up with the experience. There is a sense that thought is behind that too.

Other than that, this is an interesting experience: the thoughts are observed, and found unpleasant. And more generally, an experience is observed and found unpleasant. Rather than answer the question, here is another question:
Is there actually anything in the experience that is unpleasant, or is 'unpleasant' an added label?

Unpleasant feels like an experience (but could be a label!). I felt edgy, tense and agitated. Did I miss that there was a thought and story behind it? Sensations, feelings and emotions cause confusion for me in this process right now.

With gratitude, Jai Ananada

[dridhamati]

Hi Jai Ananda,

It has been a few interesting days. I find myself tripping over my own interpretations/thoughts, etc.
So enough of my mind chatter – let me try to ‘just observe what happens.’

Enjoy life happening!

I have a sense of the self not being there behind all this, but that there are thoughts and stories (new & old) that play and create this “I” and a separation from experience.

A suggestion here: follow this intuition/sense: this is definitely the 'right' track. Yay!

The tougher part to understand is the feeling/emotional (felt senses?) that come up with the experience. There is a sense that thought is behind that too.

Rather than trying to 'understand', again let the intuition/sense formulate itself from what is observed.
Trying to understand is a perfectly normal reaction: a need is felt to 'fill the gap', provide a logical explanation.
In this investigation though, the explanation defies logic, reason, and goes beyond.
So observe the mind come up with all sorts of stories that don't quite fit the bill, and this vain activity will only reinforce a sense/intuition that is emerging.

Unpleasant feels like an experience (but could be a label!). I felt edgy, tense and agitated. Did I miss that there was a thought and story behind it? Sensations, feelings and emotions cause confusion for me in this process right now.

From the perspective of direct experience (raw sensation), what is the difference between a pin prick and a caress?
Similarly, from the perspective of direct experience (raw sensation), what is the difference between the thought of a recurring difficult situation at work and the thought of an afternoon walk in the park?
Where do 'pleasant' and 'unpleasant' fit in these observations: are 'pleasant' and 'unpleasant' also observed as experience in they own right, or have they been subsequently added to the experiences?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Jai Ananda]

Hi Dridhamati,

Playing with staying with the senses, seeing all the thoughts that seem to be followed by feelings/emotions (or is it the other way around? Yes?) that come and go. So many thoughts, so many stories, and feeling/emotions that come up, it is hard not to fall into it. It is like the "known" relationship with the world.

Enjoyed driving in this morning, noticing hands on the steering wheel, the soft edges, the feel, the sounds of rain, the stories were gone for moments. Noticing a head ache this morning and trying not to label as discomfort or pain yet it feels like it . . . so your question that followed my question,

Is there actually anything in the experience that is unpleasant, or is 'unpleasant' an added label?

Hmmm . . . the feeling is that head hurts . . . the words are labels and the head ache is just an experience. The choice is to take aspirin or not.

Still trumped with feeling and emotions . . . the head ache is pain . . . some emotions are pain, than come reactions . . .

Reading some other inquiries and came across a youtube link to a meditation on noting the senses, “sight, sound, touch” and have played with that. Keep working with staying present with experience and this helped a bit to stop the thoughts that so quickly jump in. The video mentioned that this noting can always be in the background. That is interesting and seems to help right now even as I am typing.

Can this switch in perspective eventually help stop stories of the past and future or at least the energy behind it? There is a want to let go of so many thoughts, stories, reactions, and to just be with what is. As these fingers are typing this and experiencing being here now there is a sense this is silly question since it just is now and what will be will be. But the “I” would love to know!

With gratitude, Jai Ananda

[dridhamati]

Hi Jai Ananda,

Hmmm . . . the feeling is that head hurts . . . the words are labels and the head ache is just an experience. The choice is to take aspirin or not.
Still trumped with feeling and emotions . . . the head ache is pain . . . some emotions are pain, than come reactions . . .

There might be a confusion arising here between 'feelings' and 'emotions'. Although sometimes used interchangeably, these two words generally point to quite different phenomena.
Feelings generally pertain to what is 'felt' by the senses, more like sensations.
Emotions belong to mind alone, and are generally considered to originate from feelings.
So, going back to pain. 'Pain' is the label placed on a certain type of sensations or feelings. The 'pain' sensation can become very potent, to the point where relief from the sensation is sought (pain killer.)
Emotions linked to this sensation can be: fear, anger, sadness, etc.
Is the difference clearer now?

After all this is said, the first sentence was spot on: “the feeling is that head hurts . . . the words are labels and the head ache is just an experience.”
So, what is the answer to:
Is there a “self” to be found in the sensation called 'headache'?

Can this switch in perspective eventually help stop stories of the past and future or at least the energy behind it? There is a want to let go of so many thoughts, stories, reactions, and to just be with what is. As these fingers are typing this and experiencing being here now there is a sense this is silly question since it just is now and what will be will be. But the “I” would love to know!

Brilliant, that is so well observed.
Experience is in the here and now. Only thoughts can create a past and a future.
Questions:
Do these thought-created 'past' and 'future' hold any credibility? and
Does this '“I” that would love to know' hold any credibility?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Jai Ananda]

Hi Dridhamati,

Is there a “self” to be found in the sensation called 'headache'?

No, there is no self found in the sensation called headache. It was an experience and feeling at a particular time. It is now gone.

Do these thought-created 'past' and 'future' hold any credibility? and
Does this '“I” that would love to know' hold any credibility?

I understand about the future not holding credibility because it has not happen and is not now, but the past has happen and is done. Wouldn’t those past experiences have credibility? The family objects and history (genealogy) have some credibility? I almost feel funny asking because these are all stories, but OMG - so much has been put into it and the sentimentality of these connections to objects of people who have passed, the memories of relationships and people in our lives.

I do not think the "I" holds any credibility because it creates a separateness by relating to "I" and is limited in its perspective.

Off in meeting in the morning so connect later on in the day.
With gratitude, Jai Ananda

[dridhamati]

Hi Jai Ananda,

No, there is no self found in the sensation called headache. It was an experience and feeling at a particular time. It is now gone.

That certainly is the experience here.

I understand about the future not holding credibility because it has not happen and is not now, but the past has happen and is done.

Quite.
What is the future if not stories or thoughts of events staged in a play called 'future'?
That is not saying visualising possible courses of action when faced with a particular situation (for example) needs to be stopped; but it needs to be acknowledged as hypothetical.
And when the time comes to pick a course of action, it becomes what happens now, and it could be vastly different from anything that was envisaged...

Wouldn’t those past experiences have credibility? The family objects and history (genealogy) have some credibility? I almost feel funny asking because these are all stories, but OMG - so much has been put into it and the sentimentality of these connections to objects of people who have passed, the memories of relationships and people in our lives.

Again, the nail is hit right on the head: “these are all stories”.
What is the past if not stories or thoughts of events (labelled memories) staged in a play called 'past'? And how accurate are these memories anyway?
That's not saying memories need to be wiped out, they just need to be recognised for what they are.
And when meeting up with family, friends, lovers, the relationship that is enjoyed is the one that is happening now.

Observing the thoughts that come and go through the mind: how many of those actually relate to what is happening here and now, compared to how many dwell in a 'past' or a 'future'?

I do not think the "I" holds any credibility because it creates a separateness by relating to "I" and is limited in its perspective.

Could you please expand on this?
For example: from observations, no “I” could be found in experience. So where is this “I” located? Elusive as it is, what is its nature?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Jai Ananda]

Hi Dridhamati,

Really enjoying paying more attention through the senses so able to experience the present. This is not all the time by any means, but comes and goes and is delightful when noticing. This even seems possible being with other people as that was a struggle before.

Dridhamati wrote: Observing the thoughts that come and go through the mind: how many of those actually relate to what is happening here and now, compared to how many dwell in a 'past' or a 'future'?

Honestly it appears no thoughts are in the present . . . this needs more looking at, but may be true!

Jai Ananda wrote: I do not think the "I" holds any credibility because it creates a separateness by relating to "I" and is limited in its perspective.
Dridhamati wrote: Could you please expand on this?
For example: from observations, no “I” could be found in experience. So where is this “I” located? Elusive as it is, what is its nature?

There is no “I.” It is only a thought, story, and/or concept and limiting because “I” is a story not in the present.

with gratitude, Jai Ananda