New contact introduction

[JonathanR]

Hello Liz,

Sorry about yesterday evening. I was tired amd not feeling well enough to rewrite the lodt post. Fine today though.

I have been meaning to ask, you say you teach meditation? How much meditstion are you doing daily then? The only reason I ask is that some of what we are discussing and examining may not be best served if the ideas are only explored during times of meditstion. Meditation might be assumed by some to be the best or, possibly, the only context for exploring these ideas but there are good reasons for taking the explorations outside of the contect of regular meditation practice. Hence the idea about making a cup of tea. Some realities are best explored through practical exercises.

If memory serves me correctly meditation often requires an effort to concentrate or to collect the 'mind'. In effect it requires quite a bit of 'doing', even if the 'doing' is supposed to be subtle. There is still a subtle (or not so subtle) sense of a 'doer', isn't there?

But here the very notion of a 'doer' is directly challenged. You can't 'do' non-duality.

Have you found a 'self' so far? If there is no 'I' where is the 'doer'?

This is helpful - examine thoughts to see if they are about past/future. I can do that.

In DE, as you have seen, thoughts come and go. Do 'you' create or cause those thoughts to appear? Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing?

In DE, looking at experience of, say, hearing, touch or seeing, would you say that the appearance of a thought 'I am hearing, touching, seeing' is something extra, something added on to the raw experience?



Do this following exercise:

Sit and look in front of you, towards the other end of the room, perhaps,or towards whatever is there.. Allow your eyes to rest in a relaxed way on whatever is seen there, without concentrating on any one thing in particular. After a while of this gently close your eyes. Then consider...Is there any separation between 'the seer', the seeing and the seen? Can these be split into discrete things ?

Can they be split into seperate pieces of experience, except in thought? If thought seems able to split up the 'glued together' quality of direct experience does this mean that it really can split things up? What is going on?



Best wishes,

Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan

Thanks for your post.

Your question about meditation practice.
I have a daily morning practice which includes - not all at the same time - Mindfulness of Breathing, Just sitting and Metta Bhavana (developing positive emotions). I also bring mindfulness into daily life - washing-up, relationships, ethical practice.

I teach Buddhist meditation mostly based on Mindfulness - something I am sure you know about. This isn't a practice just about sitting but taken into daily life like making a cup of tea, eating, breathing, thoughts passing through, just looking, etc. Bringing kindly, non-judgemental attention to any sensations, experiences observed.

I have been reflecting on the differences with DE as the exercises you suggest are similar to mindfulness practices except for the investigation into a separate self (an important difference). I have been practicing mindfulness along with other practices for a long time and that is why I am here.....Especially as I see what you clearly pointed out, that there is a doer in the practice - subtle but there.

The question that is arising now whilst following your guidance is about intention. I can see that it is here where I hold a belief in self. My intention is directed to an exercise, what I decide to do or not do. It is something that is brought into meditation - setting intention to sit, remembering why I am here.
Can you give some guidance on this (intention)?


Quote: In DE, looking at experience of, say, hearing, touch or seeing, would you say that the appearance of a thought 'I am hearing, touching, seeing' is something extra, something added on to the raw experience?

When I became aware of thoughts whilst opening to sights, sounds, sensations, the raw experience became less vivid, it felt second hand. No the thoughts do not add to the experience.


Quote: Exercise.....Is there any separation between 'the seer', the seeing and the seen? Can these be split into discrete things ?
Can they be split into separate pieces of experience, except in thought? If thought seems able to split up the 'glued together' quality of direct experience does this mean that it really can split things up? What is going on?


I sat for sometime this morning putting the exercise you suggested.
I found following sound simpler - sound simply arises and falls. I am not involved except as receiver. Sight was more difficult as I found selection happening. Sight, sound, sensations - all felt woven together though, alive both without and within. Thought splits/separates creates something not real.
I have a sense that something is constantly happening that draws a veil over DE - is it possible to draw the veil aside?

Thank you again,
Liz

[JonathanR]

Hello Liz

Ihave been reflecting on the differences with DE as the exercises you suggest are similar to mindfulness practices except for the investigation into a separate self (an important difference). ..

Don't compare them. Meditation is great but just forget it for now. It won't help you here and may actually obstruct. Carry on with your daily practice but please don't regard what we are looking at here as something to do with meditation. Treat the excercises as something different.

I have been practicing mindfulness along with other practices for a long time and that is why I am here

How is this known? (Do try to answer this).

Especially as I see what you clearly pointed out, that there is a doer in the practice - subtle but there.

I did say that but really, is there ever a 'doer'? There appears to be a doer, and it is often believed that this 'doer' is 'making effort'. This is what is often believed, isn't it? But how did that lovely poetry happen? Did a 'Liz' write it?

T]he question that is arising now whilst following your guidance is about intention. I can see that it is here where I hold a belief in self.

My intention is directed to an exercise, what I decide to do or not do. It is something that is brought into meditation - setting intention to sit, remembering why I am here.
Can you give some guidance on this (intention)?

Yes, sure. This doesn't involve meditation. You are going to make a drink. It will be one or other of two options, for example, tea or coffee. A choice will happen. The apparent reason for making the choice doesn't matter. See if it is possible to find the exact choice-point where one or other is chosen? s there a chooser?

You could chew a raisin. At some stage it seems a choice to swallow occurs. Was there an exact point when 'you' chose to swallow? What happened?

: In DE, looking at experience of, say, hearing, touch or seeing, would you say that the appearance of a thought 'I am hearing, touching, seeing' is something extra, something added on to the raw experience?

When I became aware of thoughts whilst opening to sights, sounds, sensations, the raw experience became less vivid, it felt second hand. No the thoughts do not add to the experience. .

....... They may not add to the quality of the experience but did you understand my question? I was trying to ask 'is the appearance of a thought or thoughts about a real sensation, such as 'I am experiencing sensation' part of the real sensation or something like a postscript, conjecture or comment on that real sensation? As such, is the thought-commentary part of the real sensation or is it simply thought-commentary?

I found following sound simpler - sound simply arises and falls. I am not involved except as receiver. Sight was more difficult as I found selection happening. Sight, sound, sensations - all felt woven together though, alive both without and within. Thought splits/separates creates something not real.

....OK, if sound works for you that's good. The key point of this type of excercise is to examine whether there can be found any line of separation between 'hearer, hearing and heard'? Notice all three in the same moment. Is there a line between them? Try the vision one again anyway. It's not too complicated. Can you slide a credit card between the seer, seeing and the seen?

You are right to observe that thought creates an apparent split or separation in experience.

I have a sense that something is constantly happening that draws a veil over DE - is it possible to draw the veil aside?....

No. No veil has ever or will ever exist. Nothing can 'get in the way'.

On the other hand, I should ask you whether the fear or anxiety you mentioned at the outset is still a factor? If it is let me know.


Best wishes,

Jonathan

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan - thanks for your response. I feel clearer but also increasingly aware that I am not able to give this the time it needs. This has been a very busy week and a busy weekend. Next week also is busy.
I want to stop and just be with this. Not sure how to arrange this but I will.

Feeling very tired now so will respond tomorrow.
Thanks again for the clarity you bring.
Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz,

Thank you for letting me know this. Don't be too concerned abiut not having enough time. Some of these exvercises can be done fairly quickly. But if you need to pace yourself that is perfectly OK.

This last post of mine was lo----ng. If you just try to tackle one thing at a time you may find it easier? And don't feel any pressire to write lots; just the essential stuff.

You are doing well.

Jonathan.



Sometimes people find keeping a notebook to make a record of their investogations helps.

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan

Feel very still today - there has been a subtle shift but am unsure......

An event happened yesterday which would usually shake me for a few days but today - aware of sensations, thoughts about it but it doesn't matter. In fact I want to say Nothing Matters.....There is pressure in the chest, disturbed energy in the body, but it doesn't matter.

Chosen to spend most of today resting and just being. Patterns, patterns of behaviour I can see them. Feel tired but still.


Quote: I have been practicing mindfulness along with other practices for a long time and that is why I am here
How is this known? (Do try to answer this).

I have been practicing on and off for 40 years - all to try and 'get away, reject' something about myself. I can't be done, there is nothing to reject or get away from. The effort I have made - all night sits, reading, reading, retreats - loads. I don't regret anything but oh the effort......and a sense of struggle/space/struggle/space.

Today - Not sure about this shift - it is very subtle - something has dropped away.

Driving to another town a few days ago I let someone out from a side road and then recognised her as someone I know. I wondered if she 'saw' me. Then thought 'what is the 'me' would she have seen? Is there a 'me' to see? No.
She would maybe have seen an idea of Liz, a physical representation, but no 'Liz' is to be seen.


Quote: A choice will happen. The apparent reason for making the choice doesn't matter. See if it is possible to find the exact choice-point where one or other is chosen? s there a chooser?


No chooser - just happenings - getting up from a chair just happens, swallowing just happens, reaching for something just happens.

I will send another post - just feel a need to stop now.

with all best wishes, and thank yous
Liz

[JonathanR]

Hello Liz,

Glad you could find time to be still. It is important to be able to look at these things without feeling it's hard work. The feeling that 'nothing matters' may be significant. Subtle is a good adjective for this process.

No chooser - just happenings - getting up from a chair just happens, swallowing just happens, reaching for something just happens

No chooser. Things just happen.

You mentioned 'intention'. In the light of finding no chooser but things just happen, would you say this has implications for 'intention'?

Is there a puppet-master or controler of events? Am 'I' separate from experience, pulling the strings? Or do things just happen?

But 'intention', 'will'. What about that?

We have seen that thoughts create many ideas, and assumptions, including 'me' 'myself', 'I'. These seem real but are illusions. It is believed that 'I intend', 'I decide' 'I make things happen'. But isn't this an illusion too?

You saw that there is no chooser. Many things really seem to just happen, don't they? In fact, how on earth could things be 'made to happen' where there is no real 'controler' or 'chooser'?

There is an illusion of 'intention'. In fact it can be said that 'intention happens' not because a non-existent self can somehow pull strings to make things happen but because there is the belief in a 'world where people intend'. Is this true?

Do feel free to reply today, if you have time.

Best wishes,

Jonathan

[lizinprocess]

hi Jonathan

Quote: Is there a puppet-master or controler of events? Am 'I' separate from experience, pulling the strings? Or do things just happen?

The idea of my being in control is impossible. A decision is made (train or car/which shoes) but moment by moment I cannot be in control. There is a flow and then I 'do' something but I can't 'catch' the point when the doing starts - this is interesting, I have been watching this. This isn't the same as 'if by magic' - there is a connection between things.
Don't know what else to say about this - I don't know....


Quote: There is an illusion of 'intention'. In fact it can be said that 'intention happens' not because a non-existent self can somehow pull strings to make things happen but because there is the belief in a 'world where people intend'. Is this true?

This sounds a difficult concept/speculation - just to stay with what is coming up.
At the moment this is what I perceive - There is awareness - and as that expands a sense of connectedness arises - this connects somehow with intention. Rather than bringing consciously to mind the intention 'I will speak ethically' awareness and dropping the idea of self means ethical speech will happen - I can see that.
Intention is about the idea of myself as a separate being acting in the world.

Oh, if this sounds abit confused it is. The intention questions I had have faded at the moment.

Thoughts are arising - watching them - but they are questioning whether I am too old/entrenched in Buddhism to be 'liberated' from my belief in 'self'.
I found today that I slipped into equanimity - not the same thing.

Tired and abit despondent.
Thank you as always for your time and clarity,
Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz,

Just enough time for a brief message.

There is an illusion of 'intention'. In fact it can be said that 'intention happens' not because a non-existent self can somehow pull strings to make things happen but because there is the belief in a 'world where people intend'. Is this true?

This sounds a difficult concept/speculation - just to stay with what is coming up.

Actually, you're right. My phrasing was too abstract and makes something simple sound complicated .

I meant to say that there is an appearance of intention happening, just as there is an appearance of a 'real me'. You more or less went on to say this anyway.

Intention is about the idea of myself as a separate being acting in the world.

That's it!

The idea of my being in control is impossible. A decision is made (train or car/which shoes) but moment by moment I cannot be in control. There is a flow and then I 'do' something but I can't 'catch' the point when the doing starts - this is interesting, I have been watching this.

Excellent.

Thoughts are arising - watching them - but they are questioning whether I am too old/entrenched in Buddhism to be 'liberated' from my belief in 'self'.
I found today that I slipped into equanimity - not the same thing.

Good to notice thoughts come and go. They project such a convincing picture of 'how things are' or 'how things ought to be', don't they? Can you see how that thought 'I am entrenched' or 'I am too old' is just a thought?

Best regards,


Jonathan.

[JonathanR]

I found today that I slipped into equanimity - not the same thing.

What do you mean, Liz.? Not the same thing?


Jonathan

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan

I found today that I slipped into equanimity - not the same thing.


Quote: What do you mean, Liz.? Not the same thing?

I've stopped the morning meditation at the moment feeling the 'doing' that can happen there. Though equanimity arises sometimes, watching thoughts, just sitting. I have been reading the gateless gate book instead and then sitting trying to observe what arises - thoughts that feed a sense of self. The 'Michael' chapter really resonates with me - he describes my experience as a long time Buddhist practitioner very well - how this is influencing what is brought to this experience. Especially trying to 'do' this well - being a spot-on, determined, dedicated Buddhist of 40 years. Such effort.....I'm tired, need to stop, this has to be simpler.

Went slightly off topic there.....
Equanimity
Something you said a while back but I can't remember now (I can't find a way of getting back into previous pages on this site from here without posting) Anyway - with equanimity - stillness, opening out, connectedness, peace, but it doesn't stay. There isn't a cutting through delusion of 'self' as real. That is what I am longing for, a release from the dominant 'I'. So that is what I meant by 'not the same thing'.

I am feeling still, balanced, observing - but also faintly sad, no energy.

Thanks for your pointing and encouragement Jonathan.
Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz, Thanks for your message.

Especially trying to 'do' this well - being a spot-on, determined, dedicated Buddhist of 40 years. Such effort.....I'm tired, need to stop, this has to be simpler.

The good news is that it is simpler, vastly simpler. It is so easy that it is overlooked. You are right about the years of striving and seeking. We are used to imagining that liberation must be hard work, aren't we?

Don't we have an idea from somewhere that only a vast amount of 'practice' will 'get us to Insight? But then, somehow, Insight has been placed on some sort of pedestal for us by 'special' people, who are somehow always 'more advanced'? That the only thing we can do is 'push'? 'Push with our minds 'in the hope that this might eventually 'get us somewhere'? Tell me if this picture does not resonate?

I may well have said something like this before but:

You long for a release from the dominant 'I'. But how to let go? How can you let go of a control that you do not have already?
The assumption of a 'dominant I' makes the idea that letting go must be the answer. But what about just noticing the effortlessness of all that appears? Isn't everything flowing freely, including thoughts of 'I', 'I need to let go of control' and 'I long for release from a dominant 'I'?



Keep LOOKING but don't force it.


Best wishes,

Jonathan

[lizinprocess]

Hi Jonathan

Feeling very tired at the moment - had a busy day but want to write a record.
Thank you for your last post.

About the comment about not getting into equanimity - I confused a comment by Elena from the book and thought it was from you. Sorry if I confused you...


Quote: Don't we have an idea from somewhere that only a vast amount of 'practice' will 'get us to Insight? But then, somehow, Insight has been placed on some sort of pedestal for us by 'special' people, who are somehow always 'more advanced'? That the only thing we can do is 'push'? 'Push with our minds 'in the hope that this might eventually 'get us somewhere'? Tell me if this picture does not resonate?

Oh Yes it certainly does. And the default position is 'there is something wrong that needs fixing".
When I investigate further and ask what is underneath there is a fear that I can't change. This goes against all that I know intellectually - that everything is in constant change, and what I am seeing through DE here.

I am looking.
Today I felt very free and light. There was a bubbling deep inside, and deep calm.
This afternoon I was in a meeting where I was the focus of scrutiny - mixed feelings arose but steady and calm but extremely tired afterwards. I felt I 'lost' the sense I had earlier - I certainly felt 'myself' challenged. But also felt this isn't real, whatever judgements are being made they come from a delusion of self. This didn't feel intellectual - I felt it.

I can't write any more - too tired.
Thank you Jonathan.
Liz

[JonathanR]

Hi Liz,

Delighted to hear from you, tired or not! :-)

Oh Yes it certainly does. And the default position is 'there is something wrong that needs fixing".
When I investigate further and ask what is underneath there is a fear that I can't change. This goes against all that I know intellectually - that everything is in constant change, and what I am seeing through DE here.

Let's look at that idea 'there is something wrong that needs fixing'.

If no self is found when looked for (and it has not been possible to locate one so far), would it be fair to say that no self can be found that needs 'mending'?

What does it mean to look for evidence of a 'real I' and not find any in DE?

What end is there to this? What limit?

Does Anatta need 'fixing'? Why try to fix what has never been 'broken'? .

Is there a self that can or can't change? Does the 'Liz that can't change' actually 'exist'?

I am looking.
Today I felt very free and light. There was a bubbling deep inside, and deep calm.

Sounds good.

This afternoon I was in a meeting where I was the focus of scrutiny - mixed feelings arose but steady and calm but extremely tired afterwards. I felt I 'lost' the sense I had earlier - I certainly felt 'myself' challenged. But also felt this isn't real, whatever judgements are being made they come from a delusion of self. This didn't feel intellectual - I felt it.

It is good to notice the sense of a 'self that is 'challenged' even if it is also seen that this self is not real.

Very good.


Best wishes,

Jonathan.

[lizinprocess]

Thank you very much for your response Jonathan - especially appreciated as feelings of despondency are arising.
Am I 'getting anywhere' with this? Starting to feel I can't do this.

Am trying to 'use' the emotional after effects from yesterday as raw material.

Will reflect on your post.
I have to go visit my elderly parents for 3 days. Will Try and post whilst there.

Best wishes, Liz