Guide Request

[moondog]

Hi David,

1. Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

No.

2. Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

The body is a thought label.

Good. You can see,from direct experience that the body is just a label, just a concept. That being so, you clearly cannot see the body as a separate self, or containing any such self.

But it exists independently of sensations and a fortiori thoughts.

As you know, I'm only concerned here to help you to see for sure, and therefore to know, that there's just no separate self anywhere, and never was. Over the course of quite a few guidings, I've noticed the tendency of 'red herrings' to arise. These are topics or areas that can be very interesting and diverting, but not directly relevant to seeing that there's certainly no separate self. It's almost as if these threads arise, courtesy of the ego (or whatever) simply to distract from the search proper. Given that you've been unable to find any self-entity anywhere so far, including in or as the body, your statement that the body exists independently of sensations and a fortiori thoughts may well be a case in point. If that's not the case and you are saying that this may mean that there is such a self-entity to be found in direct experience, please elaborate and we'll pursue that. If not, I can't see why this either represents an impasse, or warrants pursuit at any length.

But, just briefly, and for the sake of clarity, if, as you say, the body exists apart from sensations, i.e. direct experience, and outside thoughts, where is it? Where is there that it could be if not as an idea, a concept, a thought?

I should add that it certainly seems to me that I'm not finding a separate self, despite looking hard for one. Today I was watching and listening to a swollen creek. It's been raining, and there is still snow in the mountains, so the creeks have risen dramatically. All there was, was hearing and seeing and smelling and bodily sensations. And I saw a mosquito light on my left hand: small, delicate, nearly translucent. Then I saw my right hand moving swiftly but evenly, gently crushing the mosquito. There was no "I" involved at all. There was no difference between the "seeing" of the creek, and the "seeing" of my right hand moving.

Ok, that sure sounds like it. You've now looked very thoroughly in all the various areas of direct experience and you haven't been able to find a self in any of them. I reckon now's a good time just to have a look from a slightly different perspective.

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

Pete x

[awasin]

Hi Pete

But, just briefly, and for the sake of clarity, if, as you say, the body exists apart from sensations, i.e. direct experience, and outside thoughts, where is it? Where is there that it could be if not as an idea, a concept, a thought?

Well, when somebody "dies," when the body is no longer animated by the life force, it is still "there" in that it can be perceived even though it is incapable of experiencing thought or sensation.

I've had many "out of body" experiences, and have also seen many "ghosts," i.e. false or ego selves in a subtler body. This isn't incompatible with the realization that there is no self. It's the same idea, but once removed. Ego selves in a subtler body, which is an illusion, as was the physical body, tell a story about it, like characters in a play, but with no self present, nor need of one.

I think that you're correct in seeing this as a red herring.

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

1.What experiences?

2. What thinks?

3. What does?

4. What is aware?

1. There is no separate entity which experiences.

2. Nothing thinks. Thoughts arise independently of a "thinker."

3. Nothing does. Life unfolds without a doer.

4. There is no entity which is aware, only awareness.

[awasin]

Just to clarify - the physical body does not exist except from sensations and outside thoughts, the perceptions of a "dead" body being the latter. The body is analogous to the image of a body on a movie screen; it is a concept, or idea only.

[moondog]

Hi David,

Just to clarify - the physical body does not exist except from sensations and outside thoughts, the perceptions of a "dead" body being the latter. The body is analogous to the image of a body on a movie screen; it is a concept, or idea only.

I think that you're correct in seeing this as a red herring.

Anyway, it's clear that in direct experience you can find no 'body' and know that is just a concept, a thought label.

1. There is no separate entity which experiences.
2. Nothing thinks. Thoughts arise independently of a "thinker."
3. Nothing does. Life unfolds without a doer.
4. There is no entity which is aware, only awareness.

Nice, simple, straightforward answers David.
It looks very much me that you've seen that there's just no separate self and never has been but, before I put the 'final questions' to you, can we just briefly review everything we've done so far, just to see for sure whether you need to revisit any aspects to look in more depth for any evidence of a self-entity anywhere at all.

As always, in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

It might seem like a bit if a long list of questions but the answers can be brief unless, of course, there's something you want to examine some more. Basically, we just need to see whether there's any tidying up needed and identify any areas that need to be looked into a bit more deeply, or clarified.

Pete x

[awasin]

Hi Pete

1. Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

2. Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

3. Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

4. Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

5. Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

6. Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

7. Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

8. Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

9. Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

1. No.

2. No.

3. No.

4. No.

5. The body is just another thought label for sensations and outside thoughts.

6. No.

7. No.

8. No.

9. No

[awasin]

To clarify 5., there are only thoughts - no thinker. So there are no "inside" thoughts. Referring to them as "outside" merely underscores that there is no self creating thoughts from the perspective of the body.

[awasin]

There is no "experiencer," or "awareness." These are just stories. There is only life living.

[moondog]

Hi David,

Thanks for your very straightforward answers David, where you have unambiguously confirmed that 'you' have seen through the illusion of there being a separate self. I'm really happy that you have seen this.

So, here are the final questions. When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience. Once I get all of your answers, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site. Have you got a Facebook name? If so, either let me know here or, if you prefer, PM it to me.

Always from direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Please give specific examples from your recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

Pete x

[awasin]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Please give specific examples from your recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

1. There is no separate self. No I. No me. No controller. Never has been.

2. The illusion of separate self operates automatically in response to the environment. It is similar to the release of chemicals and hormones and so on in the "body." It arises contemporaneously with experience. It is an actor that doesn't need to rehearse its lines. Tiger, adrenaline, "I" was scared, and "I" ran. It thinks that the play is "real," which is the foundation of the illusion.

3. The way it feels to see this is that experience changes from labeling sensations, to experiencing them. In the present moment, which is all that exists, there is only seeing, hearing, touching, feeling - there is no "doer" or "experiencer."

4. There were glimpses of this throughout the process, the incident at the creek for example, but I "saw it" when I'd finished my answers to the previous question (the first answers) and just looked.

5. There is no I, no me, no controller, no planner, no experiencer, nothing but experience. There is no I to be responsible for anything. Free will is a fiction. Not in the sense that there is a controller who will set things right if a self departs from a plan, but in the sense that there is no self to exercise free will. Life unfolds in the present moment. There is no dichotomy between free will and determinism, because both are labels or fictions. What is, is.

Yesterday I saw an old wasp nest in a tree branch. It was a small perfect orb, with no signs of weathering or wear. That's because it was actually a new nest. Many angry wasps. Running. No "I" anywhere. The anger of the wasps is a label, as is the fear of the human running from them. There was no anger, or fear, just life living through "wasps" and "me." The same life.

[moondog]

Hi David,

Thank you for your very clear answers.

I'll now ask the guides to have a look at this thread and will let you know as soon as I can whether they have any queries to clarify anything, as they often do. It's a good idea to check whenever you can, to keep the flow going if necessary. It can take a day or two, or it can be quicker. No worries.

Let me know your Facebook details, if any.

Pete x

[moondog]

Hi David,

Just one one query from one of the guides.

He asks, when you say, "It thinks that the play is "real," which is the foundation of the illusion', could you say, "What is the 'it' that thinks this? Can an illusion think?"

Pete x

[awasin]

"Thinks" is a poor word choice. Better would be, believes, accepts, takes for granted, or assumes.

An analogy would be someone watching a play, who has never seen a play before, and becomes upset at seeing an actor stabbed onstage. They don't "think" the play is real, they just accept that it is. When they see the actor backstage, or in another scene, or whatever, they realize the play is just pretend. No thinking is involved, or required.

[awasin]

And no, an illusion can't think.

[moondog]

Hi David,

I'm pleased to say that the guides are now satisfied that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self and they have no further queries.

It's been great guiding you and I'm very happy to have helped you see that there's no separate self and never has been.

I'll now get in touch with LU admin to get you 'turned blue' and they will be contact you with invitations to the various groups etc. Please let me me know your Facebook details if you want to join the FB 'aftercare' groups. I can enthusiastically recommend them.

Remember that you can always get in touch if you need to discuss anything.

Go well David.

With love,

Pete