The Gate

Your reply is wonderfully clear - No point in me quoting it here. Spot on.

So let us push even further. This is 'deep' stuff now.
Feel completely free to point out any areas that are unclear.
Be totally honest.

('I', 'you' and 'me' are words that all point to the same thing - A separate self, a 'thing' that is currently believed to be here right now.)

I am currently sitting down in my room looking at my laptop screen.

Is 'the body' looking at the laptop screen?
Is there an 'I', a separate self looking at the laptop screen.

We can say that there is a body here. Is it 'you'?
Is there a 'you' in front of the screen?

. . . commenting on everything thats happening.

Comments happen. Is there a 'you' creating them? Is there a 'you' commenting?
Have 'you' ever commented on anything?

When I wake in the morning . . .

This is a perfectly acceptable thought - Nothing wrong with it - But look at it anyway.
Is there a 'I' that wakes up? Has there ever been an 'I' that woke up?
Could it all just be thoughts? A story?

my body, my room and my bed

Is there an owner here? Or are these ownership all based in thought?

There is a sense of me making choices to get up and get dressed etc.

Is there a 'me' that makes choices?
Have 'you' ever made a choice?

Did 'you' choose to come here and ask for guidance?
Is there a 'you' that is being guided?

Is there a separate 'you' here of any kind that you can locate in any way?

Xain ♥

Thanks for the pointers.Very helpful.
In terms of a body looking at the laptop - there is sense based expereince which thought labels as my body, there is visual experience which thought labels as laptop and my laptop.
Thoughts arise which thought labels as my comments and the thought arises that I create the comments.
There is no I that wakes in the morning but there is a thought that I arises.But no I can be found.
There is sense experience and then thought labels bed, room and body and thought arises that they belong to me.
There is the thought arising that I am choosing and the thought arises that I make choices and there is thought labelling experience "guidance " and then thought arises I am being guided.No I is found. There is no separate me to be found unless a thought arises that says there is and is not investigated for truth.

Hi Jason - Thanks once again for your replies.

There is sense based experience which thought labels as my body.

Could you expand a little bit on this for me.
Maybe give an example of how it happens.

There is no separate me to be found unless a thought arises that says there is.

If a thought arises and says that there is - Is there an existing truth to that thought?

What is the distance from 'you' to the screen with these words on?

What are 'you'?
Do 'you' exist? If so, what do you exist as?

Xain ♥

To expand on "There is sense based experience which thought labels as my body" what actually happens is there is a thought that I gets up in the morning but when this is investigated for truth of this thought there is sense experience of warmth, touch, movement. Thought labels this "body" but its a label for various sense experiences which thought further labels mine. If that makes sense. Is there an existing truth to that thought? No its a belief.

With regards to "There is no separate me to be found unless thought arises that says there is" - what happens is experience arises then thought says these experiences are mine. But the thought is just a thought, not my thought nor is it true. The thought says its separate but experience is just experience - no sense of separation other than thoughts.

Distance between me and the laptop screen - thought imagines I am a body separate from the laptop screen observed out there apparently about 2 feet away but on investigation there is no I observing the laptop screen there is just experience, perception arising.The concept distance doesn't make sense. However old habitual views kick in that create distance and an observor, me and the observed and thus creating distance again.

(Just to say that I am away camping on Friday until Sunday evening so will not be able to respond until then)

Very much appreciating your comments and guidance - very interesting!
Jason

Very much appreciating your comments and guidance - very interesting!

You are welcome, Jason.

Do you have any specific questions at this point? Any areas that are unclear?

Has it been realised that any reference to 'I', this separate self that is believed to be here right now is just a thought - An idea.
Is there a separate self, a 'Jason' here right now?

There are six further questions I will ask when you are ready as part of this process, which may solidify the realisation. If things are clear at this point, then I can proceed and ask those.

Xain ♥

Through investigation their is a deepening realisation that the separate self is a thought. Thoughts arise and I arises through habit and then investigation sees that I is an idea and there is just openness, spaciousness and clarity. The thought of a separate Jason here right now stilll arises and investigation sees that it is a thought - but not always immediately.There is a foot in the door so to speak.

I would be open to proceed with solidifying this further as suggested. I'll be back from camping on Sunday.

Cheers
Jason

The thought of a separate Jason here right now still arises and investigation sees that it is a thought - but not always immediately.

So sometimes the thought of a separate Jason is seen to be just that - A thought - And sometimes it appears to be 'believed in'. Is it a problem?
Is there a 'Jason' believing in the thought?
Could it be different? What could change this?

There is a foot in the door so to speak.

Well you mention that the thought pattern is a 'habit' and conventionally, it's fine to view it this way.
Similarly, it is fine to say that this 'habit' may lessen in time.
Are you satisfied, and is it clear that this process is 'just happening' - It's completely automatic.
There isn't an 'I', a separate self doing it, or a separate self that could change it?

Get back to me after your camping and we can look at the further questions.
There is no rush.

Xain ♥

Hi Xain

I hope you had a good weekend. Thanks for your pointers. I would say that it is a thought of 'Jason' or perhaps 'Jasoning' arises might be another way of putting it. As you say my believing in the Jasoning and the thought of 'me' beleiving in the jasoning isn't a problem.There is no Jason to believe in the thought. Its just happening and sometimes it seems like its me but when its investigated there is no me. Yes the process is just happening, that is seen, except when it isn't but then it is.

Yes the process is just happening, that is seen, except when it isn't but then it is.

LOL - That made me laugh. :-D
Yes, you've got it.

There are a further six questions to answer when you are ready (I think that you are).
There is no rush, though. Do you have any more specific questions or areas of confusion?

Xain ♥

Thanks! No there's no more questions at the moment. Ready to move on to the next stage.

Ok, Jason - Here they are.
They may be going over old ground, but have a look at them. They may bring up other things we can look at.

Here are the first three of the six questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference (if any) between 'now' and compared with before you started this dialogue? Maybe give a report from the past few weeks.

3) Was there a moment, perhaps something I said or something that you looked into that pushed you over, made you look and realise?

Xain ♥

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. There is experience that arises. Thought labels experience and makes it mine or I. But I or mine can't be found. It never existed.Thoughts arise that say I did exist. Investigaion arises thoughts pass no I that they belong to.

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference (if any) between 'now' and compared with before you started this dialogue? Maybe give a report from the past few weeks.

3) Was there a moment, perhaps something I said or something that you looked into that pushed you over, made you look and realise?

Looking over the dialogues of the last weeks it's clear that there was selfing and there was thought arising that believed experiences arising were 'I' and mine. They were uninvestigated. There was the thought that 'I ' had an intellectual understanding but this was investigated as a thought and there was the 'beginnings' of direct experience. Later the sense of beginnings was perceived as thought that believed/labelelled this softening so to speak as a gradual process. Which is just another uninvestigated thought. The exercises into body, sense of seeing, touching, hearing, choice were the exercises that started to push 'me' over. There was no self on deeper investigation just experience arising. A greater sense of space arose and a sense of awareness in which experience its neither possible to say inner or outer unless thought divides it. Experience arises and passes. Thoughts arise that 'I' is making choices. Awareness of the story “i” make choices arises as not being true and life flows on with intelligence. Sometimes 'I' feels amazed and yet this is another uninvestigated thought. Noticing arises and there is just awareness.

The difference between now and when investigation started is that noticing of I arises and when identification with I arises there is seeing arising that sees that and lets go. It's like a big joke. 'I' laugh each time I notice getting caught in selfing. Then investigation arises there is just laughing, no I that laughs. Fear arises and 'I' fear that 'I' am kidding myself, the thought arises there must be someone in control and then there arises investigation there is no I kidding itself there is just experience arising not mine not related to thoughts/ belief. The thought of control is seen for what it is just a thought that is not mine. Presence and awareness arise.The fear arises more thought arises saying I need to be in control. Investigation arises sees that thought is just thought no I no control.

Sadness arises. Some Grief. Thought arises that 'I' have been deluded for so long and then investigation arises there is no 'I' that was deluded, there is only thought arising not mine. The concept of time is also thought, letting go. Expanding arises. In 'my' heart tensions release slowly. Investigation arises there is no 'my' heart. 'slowly' is just another thought. There is just experience of thought measuring time. Tine is a thought there is nothing to measure. Just heart but that is a label just a feeling of energy that I label my heart. Flowing of energy and expansion arises in the heart area of 'my body' but this is a thought of 'my body' there is just unfolding.

Fear arises. Thought says 'I' am losing the openness and starting to self it won't come back again” Investigation arises there is no losing anything or gaining anything. Presence.

Fear keeps arising. Investigation keeps arising. 'I' feels scared and wants control. Investigation arises and sees that fear is just thought arising. Presence.

And so on. Thought wants this process to settle. Investigation notices this thought arising and anxiety arises and passes. No 'I' that anxiety belongs to.

Thanks, Jason - Sorry for the small delay.

Here are the last three questions of the six.

4) Could you explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it as fully as can after your own realisation.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Do you have anything further that you would like to add, or to ask at this point?

Xain ♥

4) Could you explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it as fully as can after your own realisation.

Thought arises, comments, associations, memories, desires, stories, recognising. Thoughts arise that they are "me"and mine. Investigation arises and thought is seen an just thought. Suffering arises sometimes when the thought is identified as being mine. Investigation arises letting go, presence. Experience flows and happens but its not mine.Separate Self starts when a thought is identified as mine.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Getting up in the morning arises. Corn flakes are eaten rather than porridge. Cycling to work arises. Doing work arises. Prioritising arises. Thoughts arise that 'I' am making decisions, 'i' is controlling work tasks and duties. Investigation arises there is just working, there is just eating breakfast etc. The thought 'I' am responsible for getting to a meeting on time arises, making deadlines. Investigation arises and work is done, maybe it will be on time, maybe it won't. thoughts arise to explain if work is late. Communication happens. Pleasant feelings arise sometimes painful. A chocolate bar is eaten, a story arises that it was me that ate it. Investigation arises that choclate was eaten. Sugar rush arises, sugar down arises. Thought arises that no chocolate later. Investigation arises - present moment. Later is a thought.

6) Do you have anything further that you would like to add, or to ask at this point?
Yes. Painful moods arise and sometimes when pain arises self arises more stronger. stuckness arises in experience for a while and then gradually passes. When pain arises thoughts want to avoid pain and believe that pain shouldn't be happeining to 'I' presence appears to get lost for a while until it arises again.

Hi again, Jason.

Thank you for your replies.

Just to be clear, what exactly is 'selfing' that you refer to?

The difference between now and when investigation started is that noticing of I arises and when identification with I arises there is seeing arising that sees that and lets go.

Again, just to be clear - What do you mean when you say 'I arises'?

You also say 'seeing arises' - Does seeing ever arise? Or do you mean it as another way of saying 'realisation happens'?

Sadness arises. Some Grief.

Would you agree that these are labels?
Could you say that 'sadness arises' is a thought that appears to generate a feeling? Just happening?
Or is what you are referring to more than that?

Doing work arises. Prioritising arises. Thoughts arise that 'I' am making decisions, 'i' is controlling work tasks and duties. Investigation arises there is just working, there is just eating breakfast etc.

Just to be clear - When you say 'arises', you refer to the fact that it 'just happens' - Yes? - It happens without any form of control or a 'doer' of such actions?

Incidentally, feel free to use normal language if you wish.
We can still communicate and I can say that I am talking and guiding you, and you are replying. The difference is that it is seen just as a flow of thoughts. Not an actual 'reality' of two separate selves communicating.

Yes. Painful moods arise and sometimes when pain arises self arises more stronger. stuckness arises in experience for a while and then gradually passes. When pain arises thoughts want to avoid pain and believe that pain shouldn't be happeining to 'I' presence appears to get lost for a while until it arises again.

I understand. Thoughts may appear - They may contain 'I', a separate self.
Are there any truth to these thoughts?
Could they be stopped?
Are they a problem for anyone?
Some have the expectation that thoughts containing 'I' will stop - But of course, that would imply an 'I' controller being able to cause that.
Conventionally speaking, the thoughts may diminish over time as this realisation 'sinks in'. Like an ice-cube placed in a glass of water - It takes time, but the ice-cube slowly melts until all is water.

Xain ♥