The Gate

Hi :-)

I not going there because I just get a lot of unpleasent feeling and it is considered spectulation so there isn't much point...I am prepared to say that I find it difficult to believe that what I experience is the only reality there is....life is so much more than just me.

It's no problem to leave this bit as long as it's not an obstacle for you, and only you can know that if not discussed.

I am prepared to say that I find it difficult to believe that what I experience is the only reality there is....life is so much more than just me

This is not a problem at all - this isn't what we're looking at here, it's something to consider after gating. What is important though is that we see that our own direct experience is the only thing that we are able to consider to be reliable and true.

Mike (I'll respond to your next post in my following post) :-)

Hey

I believe this would be a lot easier if I could ask questions and recieve answers to my questions but that's not how it works here. Also I'm finding it difficult to see how this line of questioning is helping in judging whether I see through the illusion of a seperate self. Could u please explain how talking about the content of thoughts and whether they are real or not helps see through an illusion of a seperate self?

Insight into no self cannot be gained intellectually, so no amount of answers could help, it would simply add to the many ideas and thoughts going on which you believe. Until you can see for yourself that thought content is not real but imagined, you are completely trapped by your thoughts and no progress can be made.

Mike :-)

"The current focus is on separating the real from the unreal, let's look at the facts as Mettasattva sees them (you may need to correct this and please do so if it doesn't reflect your current thinking or anything's been missed)

1) Nothing truly exists outside the present moment.

2) Thoughts can be about fictitious things (such as a Unicorn) or about real things (such as the chair you are sat on).

3) If the thought is of the chair, the thought is not the chair but it's 'about' the chair.

4) Thoughts can give rise to feelings which can experienced physically.

5) Thoughts become (or can become) reality at a future time.

Is the above a fairly accurate account of your current thinking? (If not, please re-word as you see fit).

Thanks

Mike :-)

eyeman

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Re: Requesting Eyeman...
by Mettasattva » May 20th, 2014, 6:27 pm

Hey

That's pretty much as "Mettasattva" sees them...Yes!

:)"

Please could u point out where in this I have said that thought content is deffinately real? I don't see it myself...

There's been no suggestion that you've said that thought content is definitely real (where has that come from?), what has been suggested is that you are unsure. This is why we are working at gaining clarity on this.

Mike :-)

Hey

It's come from here...

"Insight into no self cannot be gained intellectually, so no amount of answers could help, it would simply add to the many ideas and thoughts going on which you believe. Until you can see for yourself that thought content is not real but imagined, you are completely trapped by your thoughts and no progress can be made."

There is no suggestion in this statement that I am unsure. So for the sake of clarity I'll state again... In my experience thought content is not real in the moment but can become real in the future. I am not unsure about this.

:)

Hiya,

If you are sure that thought content is not real then great! We can move forward, it's been a very productive day :-)

Just to tidy up one loose end:

In my experience thought content is not real in the moment but can become real in the future. I am not unsure about this.

If the future is just thought content that we know is not real (thought content & future), then can you see that everything after the 'but' is just speculative thought and can be dismissed?

Mike :-)

Hey

"If the future is just thought content that we know is not real (thought content & future), then can you see that everything after the 'but' is just speculative thought and can be dismissed?"

Yes I can see that the future isn't here now. May be a better way to say what I mean is... thought content can effect my reality as in my example of the music... the reality of making the track wouldn't have happened without the content of my thoughts. So in the moment the thought is just thinking and then I act on that thought and it changes my reality Or I believe the thought so I take action and that effects my reality....

Otherwise I would just blob around all the time not doing anything surely?

Then I think if content is to be dismissed completely, why do we have it in the first place? There has to be a reason for thought content even though I know it's not real in the moment.

I know that this is speculation but it just happens, I'm not actively telling myself to speculate.

:)

Hiya,

I think you're spot on with this last post and accept that it may have been more a communication issue than an issue with seeing, either way, it doesn't matter, we've nailed a vital piece of the jigsaw, this is in some ways the hard bit because it's thoughts about thoughts (which creates an almost never ending loop), from now on, we'll start looking at our direct experience.

Yes I can see that the future isn't here now. May be a better way to say what I mean is... thought content can effect my reality as in my example of the music... the reality of making the track wouldn't have happened without the content of my thoughts. So in the moment the thought is just thinking and then I act on that thought and it changes my reality Or I believe the thought so I take action and that effects my reality....

Totally agree, thoughts do effect a lot, and can certainly create needless suffering.

Then I think if content is to be dismissed completely, why do we have it in the first place? There has to be a reason for thought content even though I know it's not real in the moment.

Good question, any answer I were to give would be speculation though as in truth, I don't know for sure.

I know that this is speculation but it just happens, I'm not actively telling myself to speculate.

Again, bang on - the mind will keep throwing up ideas and will have total control unless we are able to let the mind do what it likes without paying too much attention to it.

One way or another, you've overcome this obstacle, tomorrow we can start forging ahead

Mike :-)

Hey

yAy....and relief....This communication malarky can be messy!

"Good question, any answer I were to give would be speculation though as in truth, I don't know for sure."

This is why I think it's good to answer anyway... Seeing this answer somehow creates ease, of course there are things we don't know for sure...

:)

My speculative answer to 'why thoughts happen' is that it is a useful function for exploring or simulating potential outcomes and the only way that 'logic' can happen & memories stored is by a process of separation (duality) so the illusion of subject and object as well as object from 'other' object happens. A bit like a computer using binary code as a mechanism for logic and storage. The problem is, that if we fail to see duality for what it really is, then we mistake the real thing for something which only represents it (a bit like believing the colour green is actually a binary code which is arranged in such a way as we recognise it as meaning 'green').

But please disregard the above, as logical thinking and thought are traps which we need to avoid in the rest of this enquiry.

OK!

When you have the time and the space walk around, jump, move your arms and your legs.

Observe your movement in the moment, just look, don't interpret or categorise - Is there any 'I' there separate from the experience controlling it?

Mike :-)

Hey

"Observe your movement in the moment, just look, don't interpret or categorise - Is there any 'I' there separate from the experience controlling it?"

No... I have been dancing around in the kitchen all morning, before and after reading ur post... There is no controler controling how I move my body... I hear the beat and my body moves.... even thoughts disappear... Dancing for me, is probably the most in the moment I can be.... possible why I love it!

:)

"Observe your movement in the moment, just look, don't interpret or categorise - Is there any 'I' there separate from the experience controlling it?"

No... I have been dancing around in the kitchen all morning, before and after reading ur post... There is no controler controling how I move my body... I hear the beat and my body moves.... even thoughts disappear... Dancing for me, is probably the most in the moment I can be.... possible why I love it!

Great stuff - keep on dancing! :-)

Ok, we've covered 'controller', let's move on to 'chooser'...

Pick up two random objects, then make a 'choice' as to which object gets lifted up by the hand. again, try to observe what happens, particularly at the point where the choice happens, do this multiple times if it helps.

Is there a self which is choosing or does choice just happen?

Mike :-)

Hey

"Pick up two random objects, then make a 'choice' as to which object gets lifted up by the hand. again, try to observe what happens, particularly at the point where the choice happens, do this multiple times if it helps.
Is there a self which is choosing or does choice just happen?"

No... There just seems to be a preference for one over the other, based seemingly on colour or shap etc... but the preference is just there... I'm not choosing to prefer one over the other.

:)

You're flying through this today - fantastic :-)

Let's tackle experience through the senses as one whole group together.

This can be done in a number of ways, either while sat quietly or during a busy part of the day. Experience is always happening - the trick here is to let thoughts, labels and ideas come and go but not let them interfere with the simple process of looking at 'what IS'.

When seeing happens, is there a 'seer' separate from the seen?

Where hearing happens, is there a hearer that is separate from the heard?

Same thing with touch.

Same thing with smell and taste

And finally, is there a thinker separate from the thoughts?

Mike :-)

Hey

"When seeing happens, is there a 'seer' separate from the seen?

Where hearing happens, is there a hearer that is separate from the heard?

Same thing with touch.

Same thing with smell and taste

And finally, is there a thinker separate from the thoughts?"

No to all... seeing is just happening, jearing is just happening, touch just happens ( along with body movement ) smell just happens and taste happens with certain conditions, ie when I place some food in my mouth. there is no "thinker" seperate from the thinking process, again it just happens... The only time there is an "I" doing any of this is when I think it, and then it's just thought which isn't real in the moment as we have already covered.

:)