Reality

[Faraday]

I guess because it feels unclear. it feels uncomfortable. It doesn't feel like how "life should be". Haha thats more expectation creeping out.. Life feels distorted. I don't feel connected to anything, I guess more expectation but I have often felt "out of touch" to life itself. I guess the desire to not have the fog is from expectation that those who have seen past illusion see things in a clearer, more open way. I see people living happily together, not so anxiety ridden as I am and I want to be like them. more hidden expectations I notice are a sense of "awakening" an enrichening of spiritual life. A sense I had when I was a kid. a sense of wonder

The clarity that you're talking about is not about seeing through the fog but rather seeing the fog clearly. You don't need extra clarity to get there, you just need to look.

Yes it is very hard for me.. Often life itself feels hard.. when it shouldn't be.

If life feels hard, let it feel hard. The problem is not life feeling hard, it's thinking it shouldn't.

I've tried this exercise as you described;

thoughts arise. sensations arise. witnessing of actions, sound is heard, the screen is seen. typing happens. more thoughts, thoughts about "my" life, breathing is happening. feelings of anxiety. anxiety is happening. thoughts trying to explain several different things happen.

I've noticed that all these things happen. even including the body. the fingers are typing, sound is happening. the are observed but not happening to any one person. The mind stuff is where the confusion comes up. "who is hearing the mind" "who is observing all of this"

Good, now keep doing this whenever you can and try doing it for a longer period.

So, what happens when the thought "who is observing all of this" comes up? How much space is there between the thought and the seeing of the thought? Is there really something observing or is there just the stuff that is being observed?

When you go to sleep, does the consciousness go away, or does the stuff that consciousness sees go away? What would be the difference? Is consciousness any different from the sum total of everything that is seen?

sorry if I am being challenging with this

Don't worry about that.

[tonka]

If life feels hard, let it feel hard. The problem is not life feeling hard, it's thinking it shouldn't.

Hmm I see what you mean. but I guess I had another expectation of some sort of simplicity or ease. Many accounts of this gave an impression that seeing no self makes life easier in a way. "effortless" and "blissful" are words I frequently see

It would be nice to escape the weight of thoughts that seem to only beat me down, especially at times when nothing is actually wrong in the moment

So, what happens when the thought "who is observing all of this" comes up? How much space is there between the thought and the seeing of the thought? Is there really something observing or is there just the stuff that is being observed?

When you go to sleep, does the consciousness go away, or does the stuff that consciousness sees go away? What would be the difference? Is consciousness any different from the sum total of everything that is seen?

When I think "who si observing all of this" comes up, it seems like there is no space at all. A sensation that "I" am thinking that. There i stuff that simply being observed.. but the stuff feels personal. Like the stuff is "about" something else


When I sleep, conscious persists. The stuff my consciousness witnesses goes away temporary until I awaken and new, often different stuff occurs. The difference would be that if it were the opposite, consciousness suspended during sleep, then concsiousness would be a static state that stops and ends depending on sleep.

Im not exactly sure i understad that last question


sorry for the late reply, I had a reply typed up and it fooled up and then forgot that I didn't respond a second time

[Faraday]

Hmm I see what you mean. but I guess I had another expectation of some sort of simplicity or ease. Many accounts of this gave an impression that seeing no self makes life easier in a way. "effortless" and "blissful" are words I frequently see

Expectations are not your friend in this process. If you're looking for bliss and effortlessness you'll never find truth, but if you look for truth you may find bliss and effortlessness (Or not. Everyone experiences different things). This might sound like a riddle but it isn't.

It would be nice to escape the weight of thoughts that seem to only beat me down, especially at times when nothing is actually wrong in the moment

What's there underneath those thoughts? Something is being weighed down, what is it?

When I think "who si observing all of this" comes up, it seems like there is no space at all. A sensation that "I" am thinking that. There i stuff that simply being observed.. but the stuff feels personal. Like the stuff is "about" something else

When I sleep, conscious persists. The stuff my consciousness witnesses goes away temporary until I awaken and new, often different stuff occurs. The difference would be that if it were the opposite, consciousness suspended during sleep, then concsiousness would be a static state that stops and ends depending on sleep.

Im not exactly sure i understad that last question

What's the difference between consciousness not seeing anything and no consciousness being there at all? If all your senses, feelings and thoughts were to dissappear, would there still be a 'you' left?

[tonka]

What's there underneath those thoughts? Something is being weighed down, what is it?

Underneath all thoughts sensations and feelings is some "thing". almost like a canvas. there is all kind sof things put on the canvas but the canvas is still underneath it. I can't tell what exactly that feeling is but its almost like I *know* its there despite not feeling it.

What's the difference between consciousness not seeing anything and no consciousness being there at all? If all your senses, feelings and thoughts were to dissappear, would there still be a 'you' left?

the different is that when it is "not seeing", it still exists. like a person having their eyes closed.

[Faraday]

Underneath all thoughts sensations and feelings is some "thing". almost like a canvas. there is all kind sof things put on the canvas but the canvas is still underneath it. I can't tell what exactly that feeling is but its almost like I *know* its there despite not feeling it.

What does the canvas do? Does it think? Does it observe? Does it decide? What would happen if there was no canvas? If you look at a painting, do you see canvas, or just paint?

the different is that when it is "not seeing", it still exists. like a person having their eyes closed.

How do you know? Are you absolutely sure? What would be the difference for the consciousness? What would a 'not seeing' consciousness be experiencing?

I ask this because there seems to be this idea that there's something behind the seeing/feeling/thinking and i want you to take a look and see if you can find anything that is not one of those things. Is there really something seeing, or is there just what is seen?

[ttrp]

What does the canvas do? Does it think? Does it observe? Does it decide? What would happen if there was no canvas? If you look at a painting, do you see canvas, or just paint?

the canvas is simply there for the piant to be on. it does not do any of these things, just provides a platform for things to exist. colours, paint, etc

I originally felt If no canvas existed all these things would exist.. they just wouldn't have any surface to be on and to be manipulated in a certain way ie a painting of a sailboat or duck

How do you know? Are you absolutely sure? What would be the difference for the consciousness? What would a 'not seeing' consciousness be experiencing?

I ask this because there seems to be this idea that there's something behind the seeing/feeling/thinking and i want you to take a look and see if you can find anything that is not one of those things. Is there really something seeing, or is there just what is seen?

HMm I guess I do not know for certain. I guess what I mean is that in the absence of something to perceive consciousness , life and other things still persist. Though I do not know for certain, as I have never experienced this.

These are interesting questions I am struggling with.. a "not seeing" consciousness would be experiencing nothing since there is nothing to experience..


I had heard and in my experience noticed that thought/feelingsetc seem to "exist" in something, that there is something behind it all. I have heard of this called awareness or "the source" and a numbe of other possibilities. When I attempt to look, I see that there are thoughts emotions and feelings that exist over some sensation that always persists.


sorry for the delay in writing, I live in a remote area that experienced power outages and a lack of internet unexpectedly the past 2 days

[Faraday]

the canvas is simply there for the piant to be on. it does not do any of these things, just provides a platform for things to exist. colours, paint, etc

Are you sure what you see is canvas and not paint? I'll stop the metaphor right here because it might become confusing. What i mean to ask is: If you can see awareness, is it still awareness? Is there anything other than the things that are experienced right this moment? Is there something experiencing something, or is there just the experience of something?

HMm I guess I do not know for certain. I guess what I mean is that in the absence of something to perceive consciousness , life and other things still persist. Though I do not know for certain, as I have never experienced this.

These are interesting questions I am struggling with.. a "not seeing" consciousness would be experiencing nothing since there is nothing to experience.

Then what would be left of consciousness? Answer this from the perspective of the consciousness.

I had heard and in my experience noticed that thought/feelingsetc seem to "exist" in something, that there is something behind it all. I have heard of this called awareness or "the source" and a numbe of other possibilities. When I attempt to look, I see that there are thoughts emotions and feelings that exist over some sensation that always persists.

Can awareness do anything? Does it have control over anything? Is the thing that says "i am awareness" the same as awareness? Can awareness be seen, or can only the things that awareness sees be seen?

[ttrp]

Are you sure what you see is canvas and not paint? I'll stop the metaphor right here because it might become confusing. What i mean to ask is: If you can see awareness, is it still awareness? Is there anything other than the things that are experienced right this moment? Is there something experiencing something, or is there just the experience of something?

No, if seeing awareness, that is jsut the thought about awareness. There isn't anythign other than the things experienced right at this moment, even though thoughts may "seem" real if one follows them. These last ones confuse me. I recognize that there is just the experience. But the perception that persists is that it is all happening to "me"

Then what would be left of consciousness? Answer this from the perspective of the consciousness.

I don't really know how to answer this. I can't seem to figure this out

Can awareness do anything? Does it have control over anything? Is the thing that says "i am awareness" the same as awareness? Can awareness be seen, or can only the things that awareness sees be seen?

Awareness doesn't do anything it is just there. No control over anything just observation of the events that take place within it. Interesting question, the thing that says "I am awareness" is jsut a thought. a thought that doesnt' really point to anything.

No awareness cannot be seen, it is like it is invisble or in the backround. Only the things within awareness can be seen. Like looking through a telescope.



I'm getting kindof confused by this process now. I don't feel like Im getting it. there are feelings of frustration and hopelessness. I dont' really know if I understand what is being said by the phrases "awareness" and "consciousnesS". im uncertain if I am percieving them in the way that they are

[Faraday]

I'm getting kindof confused by this process now. I don't feel like Im getting it. there are feelings of frustration and hopelessness. I dont' really know if I understand what is being said by the phrases "awareness" and "consciousnesS". im uncertain if I am percieving them in the way that they are

Confusion doesn't have to be a bad thing. The mind gets stuck trying to figure this out, so stop relying on your mind and start looking. Look at the happiness and sadness, look at the thoughts and the things in front of your eyes, look at the confusion. Is all this happening to something, or is this all just happening? Is the reality of the telescope you mentioned one of a telescope pointed at the sky or of just the sky?

If you experience a 'me' sensation, isn't that just more sensation? Is there anything other that the big collection of sensations you experience at this moment? Isn't everything in reality a sensation? No awareness, just sensations/experiences.

[ttrp]

Confusion doesn't have to be a bad thing. The mind gets stuck trying to figure this out, so stop relying on your mind and start looking. Look at the happiness and sadness, look at the thoughts and the things in front of your eyes, look at the confusion. Is all this happening to something, or is this all just happening? Is the reality of the telescope you mentioned one of a telescope pointed at the sky or of just the sky?

If you experience a 'me' sensation, isn't that just more sensation? Is there anything other that the big collection of sensations you experience at this moment? Isn't everything in reality a sensation? No awareness, just sensations/experiences.

I have trouble with simply to stop relying on my mind and to start looking. It seems that when I think "start looking" more mind just gets frustrated. things are nto happening to something, its all just happens. Thoughts exist here which try to make sense of all the happenings.


yes a "me" sensation is just a sensation. NO there is not anythig else other than the big colelction of sensations. Even sensations about self, future and past are simply sensations happening now. I keep getting caught up in these imaginations however...

[Faraday]

I have trouble with simply to stop relying on my mind and to start looking. It seems that when I think "start looking" more mind just gets frustrated. things are nto happening to something, its all just happens. Thoughts exist here which try to make sense of all the happenings.

Why would a frustrated mind stop you from looking? Look at the frustration and see what happens. If the mind tells you you can't then look at that. Instead of going deep, take a step back and keep taking steps back. The reality you're looking for is already here, and you're already looking at it. Just stop doing anything and see what happens. Tell me what you see with pure honesty, look at what happens and then tell me.

yes a "me" sensation is just a sensation. NO there is not anythig else other than the big colelction of sensations. Even sensations about self, future and past are simply sensations happening now. I keep getting caught up in these imaginations however...

You keep getting caught up? or some sensation is getting caught up in some other sensations?