Are you ready?

[tubameister]

This all is great scaffolding, and last night thought really had a breakthrough, but thinking thinks more thoughts need to be thought to better cement this whole non-idea. Everything thinking has thought of so far has held up joyously, though.

And if I may, John, do you 'think' you don't exist, or 'see' you don't exist. There's a difference, and your last sentence confused me a bit, to be honest. So you have 3 questions now.

Please excuse my use of I, as I must use it to communicate clearly, but it adds many inaccuracies which I hope you'll navigate through fine.

I guess I mean to say that I still can't believe this actually worked. I keep reading the thread over, picking at the perceived holes in the progression, and it just keeps cementing itself.

To be honest, I guess the fact that I still feel the need to reinforce this non-knowledge means that I haven't really seen that I don't exist, though I certainly think and now believe that I don't exist.

I could write "I can't see if I don't exist because there's no one around to do the seeing!" ...but I don't really see that, that's just logic at work.

...but how can I write that and not 'see' it? Or do I already 'see' it and just have to realize that I already 'see' it?

I definitely thought I got it sometime between my post with the picture and the next. I can describe what that felt like, if it'd mean anything to you.

I feel like I'm straddling two planes of existence. I need one last push!

[tubameister]

To expand upon my answer to

And if I may, John, do you 'think' you don't exist, or 'see' you don't exist.

'I' doesn't think anything. Thoughts think, and thoughts think that 'I' doesn't exist. 'I' can't see that 'I' doesn't exist because there is no 'I' to do this seeing!

I know this, but do I see it? I don't even know!

[Moonlight]

I think I managed to confuse the you which doesn't exist! I think you're there, but please answer the last two questions I wrote. Namely

While we're waiting, can you answer two more questions?

1. How does it feel to be liberated?
2. How would you explain it to someone who's never heard of this before at all?

Sometimes, in fact mostly, all there is is this perceptual shift. If you know you don't extst, I guess that

[Moonlight]

Oops, posted too soon!

Was saying if you KNOW that yu don't exist, I think that's it. As you said, the use of language us woefully inadequate to express this. And of course one has to use "I", "you", etc.

So anyway,please write in detail about your feelings now, and the other question too.

Thank you so much.

[tubameister]

Hahaha, I don't understand your mistake too well, but your explanation makes sense. There's a difference between know, think, and see that we're fooling with here. :]

1. How does it feel to be liberated?
2. How would you explain it to someone who's never heard of this before at all?

1. Well, I followed that progression in my mind, felt myself pulled towards the conclusion, and on the other side, eyes opened, and everything just was. And I went about my business as usual, but with a wholly different perspective. It was so easy. And it still is easy. And it always was easy!

2. This will come later :P

[Moonlight]

John, it's quite a bit later now, we're still waiting for your answer to the last question. Then I'll ask the others if they have any further questions, or whether we can confirm. And please, can you also expand a little the previous answer? How life feels now, as opposed to before.

Thank you!

[tubameister]

Winter break ended and I'm back at college, just finished unpacking, and now I must sleep, but I'll respond tomorrow.

[Moonlight]

OK John. Do that, but please don't go away at this point.

Love.

[tubameister]

I realized that I haven't seen through the illusion yet. At one point in this thread I'm almost certain I did, but only for a moment, and then it left me. The description I gave of how it felt was meant just for that moment. I keep writing stories to explain the illusion to people, but I keep hitting dead ends.

If snow falls from the sky, who is doing the falling?
No one, the snow is just falling.

If wind blows through the trees, who is doing the blowing?
No one, the wind is just blowing.

If thoughts run through the mind, who is doing the running?
No one, the thoughts are just thinking.

...but that doesn't go on to say why there's no self.

I also wrote this:

Once, there was a mind. This mind really liked to label things. One day, it even labeled itself! And it decided to call itself 'John'. The mind told others it was John, others started calling the mind John, and the mind responded regularly to John. Eventually, the mind started to think that it actually was John! For years John lived life,

and then lost track of where I was headed.

I keep rereading this thread, getting so close to realizing, and then something gets in the way! I just want to bathe/drown in this thread, haha

This is a conclusion I hit when I felt close: "If you realize the illusion of self, you can be 100% sincere all the time. Then you are blameless, and that is liberation." How does that read to you?

[Moonlight]

It's ok, if you keep 'trying to get to the other side' or expecting something dramatic to happen, that in itself gets in the way of looking at what's there.

Sometimes, all there is, is a perceptual shift and a deep knowing, a seeing that yes, the self is nothing but an illusion and never was. No bells ringing, no earth shattering 'experience'. And the mind says, I didn't get it.

Let's see where and if you're still hanging on. Are you still grabbing onto the bridge you were standing on (loved the illustration!), or have you let go and jumped?

Where and what is John? Does he exist? Please write with complete honesty. Not what you've read, not what you think the answer should be. Only what you know and realize from your experience right now. Write as much as you want.

[Moonlight]

I keep rereading this thread, getting so close to realizing, and then something gets in the way.

Look at what is that "something" that gets in the way.

[tubameister]

It's ok, if you keep 'trying to get to the other side' or expecting something dramatic to happen, that in itself gets in the way of looking at what's there.

Sometimes, all there is, is a perceptual shift and a deep knowing, a seeing that yes, the self is nothing but an illusion and never was. No bells ringing, no earth shattering 'experience'. And the mind says, I didn't get it.

Thank you for this. I think it'll be better for me if I just drop all my expectations of what realization will feel like. There's no way to work backwards from these expectations to realize the illusion.

Let's see where and if you're still hanging on. Are you still grabbing onto the bridge you were standing on (loved the illustration!), or have you let go and jumped?

Where and what is John? Does he exist? Please write with complete honesty. Not what you've read, not what you think the answer should be. Only what you know and realize from your experience right now. Write as much as you want.

John is a label applied to a process, by the process. This label, and all others, are not real. They are not real in the sense that a whole set of terms like pride, honor, blame, etc can't apply to them. So much falls away once one realizes the illusion of self. At the moment, I feel my grasp of the illusion is alright. I feel the falling, but it's oh so gradual, and the more that falls, the greater my grasp on the illusion. I'm past the point of no return, but I'm not at the end of the line. I've jumped, but I haven't hit the water!

"I keep rereading this thread, getting so close to realizing, and then something gets in the way."
Look at what is that "something" that gets in the way.

I think that the 'something' I was getting hung up on the definitions of words we've been using like 'real' (mostly just 'real'), but I realized that strict definitions don't matter. The definition can be fuzzy without affecting your path. Words are just guidelines. You'll realize what their true definitions are meant to be for this particular explanation of 'the illusion of self' once you grasp the illusion and come back up at the word from underneath.

I feel like the only thing you can do for me at this point is throw stuff at me so I fall faster. XD

[Moonlight]

John, it's important to realize, you cannot "grasp" the illusion. You just have to see through it, recognize it as being a lie we've believed in. Once you see it, you cannot "unsee" it.

John is a label applied to a process, by the process. This label, and all others, are not real. They are not real in the sense that a whole set of terms like pride, honor, blame, etc can't apply to them

Please explain this label, John, more. How is he created? What is his life? How does John take decisions?

When you fall, there is no water to hit.

[tubameister]

John, it's important to realize, you cannot "grasp" the illusion. You just have to see through it, recognize it as being a lie we've believed in. Once you see it, you cannot "unsee" it.

That makes perfect sense. You can't 'grasp' an illusion just like you can't 'grasp' a mirage. You just have to see through it to know that it isn't (or unknow that it is).

"John is a label applied to a process, by the process. This label, and all others, are not real. They are not real in the sense that a whole set of terms like pride, honor, blame, etc can't apply to them"
Please explain this label, John, more. How is he created? What is his life? How does John make decisions?

'John' is created just like 'chair' is created. The mind identifies object through perception, gives them a name, and assumes that they're real through common sense (which is wrong a lot of the time). A lot of unnecessary things happen in John's life that wouldn't happen if the label was seen through. These unnecessary things are briefly described in my last post (the terms that fall away). John's life is of attachment. The mind's life just is. The mind's decisions are entirely deterministic, John doesn't make decisions, because he's just a label mistaken as a real object.

[Moonlight]

John, I see where there's confusion. There are labels used for real objects, like a chair or body. You can see them, feel them. Then there are labels used for things which are not real at all. In ANY sense. Like Santa or the tooth fairy. Something imaginary, and something once seen for not real, cannot be believed in again. For example, when you know Santa is not real, you cannot believe in him again.

I am saying John is not real at all, like Santa. Body exists, mind exists, chair exists. A "you" doesn't exist. Look and see.