Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

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alfi
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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:27 pm

The self does exist. It exists as a thought construct. A story. Do we have real, experiential responses to stories ?
Yes, it happens all the time in the movies, theater, reading a book ... I see that, real experiences can also come from a story.
an object and awareness is the same thing.
Beautiful. The subtlty of this is easily forgotten as the illusion of sepatate-ness is constantly reinforced with language and cultural norms. Simply remembering your experiencing of the music will be enough to re-member this reality. ..or immerse in any direct experiencing.
Yes, I see this forgetting / remembering. I seem to remember in peaceful situations and forget in more demanding situations.
This happens to me when I trying to solve a problem, when I least expect it (e.g. in the shower) a brilliant thought comes with the solution.
Yes, and you will get better at this. It's a trust thing. ..and a relaxed knowing that this stuff just arrives.
In a way I'm already trusting. My kids like stories at bed time. They enjoy new stories so I make them up. Before sitting in the bed I've no clue what the story will be about. Even as the story goes, I have no clue what will happen after ... but somehow, I come up with a good story! I'm not Shakespeare, but the kids enjoy the story and this is what matters.

Concerning the questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no self but there is sense of self. There was never self but sense of self. In a way I feel that I've always known this. When I contemplate this question it is clear that there is no self and it never was. However, in daily life I'm still taken by the sense of self. For me it is not (yet) the case that I use the sense of self intentionally to interact with other people.

2) Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?

It arises with the need to find what I am. It is like the self need to identify with something regardless with what. Sometimes the self is a thought, a bodily sensation and feeling ... It seem it does not matter if it is a positive or negative thought / feeling provided there is one. It is like there is the assumption that the self is there and therefore, it has to be something (regardless what). It is, like in 'The Real You' documentary, that given the available current experience-ing, find the closest experience with the self idea of itself. So, if I now know that there is no self ... why does it still appear? (e.g. why am I sometimes taken by the sense of self?)

It disappear when we look for it. If there is a Self it must be there, right. So, show me the Self! Also by realizing that a self is not needed for experiencing.

The process could be said that is always the same or that it varies depending how you want to see it. It is different in the sense that the sense of self comes in different flavors (thought, sensations, feelings). You could say it is the same in the sense that it is the process of finding the closest thing that the self could say it is itself.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I'm a bit disoriented. Today for instance, I brought the car to the service. On my way back I realized how weird it was to own a car, or own anything for the matter. I have a paper saying that the car is mine, I know I bought it and I pay taxes and so on. It is like that the ownership relation is artificial ... on the other hand I'll feel upset if the car is stolen.

Another thing that is changing is the thirst for knowledge. At the very beginning of our conversation I wanted to know lots of things. Now it seems does it does not matter that much.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I guess that everything contributes:
- the music experiment was great to experience perceiving without a self
- the left hand lifting experiment seemed innocuous at the beginning but then triggered some choice realizations
- the command of "LOOK for yourself" and subsequent fear
- choice realizations: choices cannot be traced back (e.g. drive to the museum, right-hand lifting). There are like a cascade effect in a real-time unavoidability.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

I've had some glimpses on how decisions happen by them self. The real time unavoidability (real time in contrast to predetermination). However, I still have the feeling that I am taking decisions as I take them. Then I see that there is no self to take decisions and that I cannot trace back how the actual decision was taken, but is is more after the fact. It is like this brilliant ideas under the shower. I still have the impression that I'm deciding while doing the decision.

6) Anything to add?
In Germany it is tradition that the Easter Rabbit brings chocolate in funny forms (mainly eggs and rabbits) the Sunday Easter (tomorrow). Today my older daughter asked me if the Easter Rabbit was real or if we were the ones hiding the chocolate. This made me smile as she is also seeing the illusion. I told her the truth.

cheers
Jose

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alfi
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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:37 am

Hi Vince,
Yesterday, as I went to bed I realized that my answers came from remembering rather from direct experience in the moment of writing. I followed your advice of remembering the listening experiment. Indeed, I start listening to Bach on the bed. Eventually the uncomfortable sensations in the throat were back. So, I felt determined to face them. I did not know if stay in bed or go outside and I trusted that the appropriate action will happen. Eventually I got up and sit in my meditation spot. I stay with the uncomfortable sensation in the throat for half an hour or so. It did not go away but softened and I was at that time really tired (it was already 2 hours after I went to bed). So, I went getting some sleep.
Today I waked up early as the kids were excited finding all the chocolates that the "Easter Rabbit" has hidden. The sensation is somehow weaker but has been present along the day. Even now as I type this words (12:30 local time).
Any suggestions?

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:20 pm

Hi Jose.
Yesterday, as I went to bed I realized that my answers came from remembering rather from direct experience in the moment of writing.
Ah, good realization. Good self honesty.
The sensation is somehow weaker but has been present along the day. Even now as I type this words (12:30 local time).
Any suggestions?
Yes. Although this is not expressing as a classic fear scenario, it is a somatic response to it.
Of course it's important to consider the possibility that it is coincidentally a physical condition, but if it seems to be a response to our inquiry, then we can make use of it.
Just as the fear was your friend with the intention to protect you, this has the same motivation. So welcome it as you would a friend and ask it what it is doing for you. Grab the first thoughts that arise. Watch out for other thoughts that might try to take you away from those first ones. Stay with the direct experiencing of the response to the question. It might be another sensation as well as thoughts.

love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:47 pm

Just as the fear was your friend with the intention to protect you, this has the same motivation. So welcome it as you would a friend and ask it what it is doing for you. Grab the first thoughts that arise.
The first thought was to stop this. It was working for my safety.
Watch out for other thoughts that might try to take you away from those first ones. Stay with the direct experiencing of the response to the question. It might be another sensation as well as thoughts.
I had another thought that this feeling maybe was a stronger version of the "out-of-body" experience of 'the real you documentary'. In the sense that if there is nothing to identify with ... a new sensation was created just to anchor identity.

This realization made the sensation to soften in intensity and then it changed. It moved from the upper throat to this feeling we have just before crying. I then realized that I wanted to cry. There was no reason for this, I was not sad for any particular reason. I just wanted to cry ... but I repressed it because it was not convenient (with the kids around). So I said to myself that I will cry at the next convenient opportunity. But then, when it happened, tear did not come.

I feel now much lighter. It is like yesterday there was a storm that lasted until this afternoon. I seemed I forgotten our conversations these days. Now I'm back (sort to speak). I guess the storm will come back and maybe next time rain comes in form of tears.

Thank you for your help. Truly appreciated
Jose

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alfi
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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:04 pm

Hi Vince,
we go for short holidays tomorrow morning. I'll have internet access through the smartphone, but not really a proper keyboard.
cheers
Jose

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:03 am

we go for short holidays tomorrow morning. I'll have internet access through the smartphone, but not really a proper keyboard.
Ok, leave long replies 'till you return if you like.
The first thought was to stop this. It was working for my safety.
Sure, but like the adrenalin is to save you from the snake bite, it is misguided when it turns out to be just rope.
I then realized that I wanted to cry.
Ah, yes. Crying is a response to much more than sadness. These days crying for joy happens often here.
Crying as a response to relief. It is a letting go. Releasing.
Crying from frustration.
Crying from compassion. Those movies where siblings find each other after long separation, or parents find children or someone reaches home afte an ordeal, bring tears here.
Hmm, waking up can be like 'coming home'.
..anyway, play with it and see what arises about those tears.
I had another thought that this feeling maybe was a stronger version of the "out-of-body" experience of 'the real you documentary'. In the sense that if there is nothing to identify with ... a new sensation was created just to anchor identity.
The mere fact that these thougths arose, gives them credibility. If this is the case then consideration of what it might mean without an I is called for.
When considering this, include the fact that if there never was an I (whether it was known or not) that things that needed to happen, did happen.
Although it might seem at first glance, that you are losing an I, that isn't so. You are recognising that the I was always a concept. That the idea of a Real, separate Self is, and always was an illusion, or actually a delusion. Nothing lost, just a belief exposed as fallacious.
I feel now much lighter.
Great. Excellent. Yes, the burden of a Self is pretty heavy. Freedom from that is also Freedom to discover the Wonder-Full-ness of what before was seen as ordinary.
It's ALL an Amazing miracle. WonderFull.

love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:38 pm

Hi Vince,
No strong emotions today.
I was doing experiments with experiencing today. Experiences are storied. Only experiencing is real.
It changes so fast!! I see that thinking tries to pause experiencing with thoughts about a previous experience. However, the experience it refers to is not there (just like the hand is not there if we are not aware).
I realize that thoughts can never capture experiencing. Experiencing cannot be paused.

Cheers
Jose

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:44 pm

I realize that thoughts can never capture experiencing.
So what part does thought play in the perception of experiencing ?
Is the perceiving of experiencing separate from experiencing ?
Are these words anything more than thoughts pointing to THIS ?
Is 'THIS' also a pointer to ALL that 'you' are ?

love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:21 pm

Q: So what part does thought play in the perception of experiencing ?
A: thought is also experiencing. In fact, the thought and the experiencing of the thought are the same thing. However, thought seems to cause the forgetting that only the current experiencing is real.

Q: Is the perceiving of experiencing separate from experiencing ?
A: no, they are the same.

Q: Are these words anything more than thoughts pointing to THIS ?
A: no... In answering the first question I have realized that only experiencing is real.

Q: Is 'THIS' also a pointer to ALL that 'you' are ?
A: 'THIS' is the current experiencing. The is no 'me'. The 'me' is another experience-ing. However it still feels as if there was 'me'.

Thank you for your guidance
Jose

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:41 am

However, thought seems to cause the forgetting that only the current experiencing is real.
Yes, this is the old conditioning. The brain will re-wire (new synaptic connections established) each time the old conditioning is thwarted. (old neuronal pathways frustrated by inhibiting completion - leading to atrophy)
The moment that Recognition occurs, the 'living out' of the content of that story is dropped.
Recognition that Jose was 'lost' in the content of a thought stream, will come with an "Aha !" This Recognition may happen some time after the event. "Oh, I was angry/sad/happy/elated/depressed/etc, because I was believing thought ABOUT suchandsuch." ...or it might come during the 'event', ..or even before it. "WoW !, I was about to get sucked into that story. Hahahaa."
Whenever it happens, laugh. Laugh out loud. A great big guffaw if you are alone (or aren't embarrassed by the presence others) If that isn't appropriate a chuckle or even a silent smile with eyes only is fine. Whatever you do, just make sure that your stomach contracts. This has the effect of releasing Oxytocin (a happiness, hormone) which has the effect of neutralizing any stress hormones that would have been released by negative emotions. If you Recognize that you were feeling elated because of story, then allow it, but realize that story was involved.
Can you stop thoughts ?
Then relax and wait for the Recognition, the discovery to occur.


love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:54 pm

Hi Vincent,
I'm back home - now with a proper keyboard!
The moment that Recognition occurs, the 'living out' of the content of that story is dropped.
Yes, is it as there were two things the thought and the content of the thought. Realizing that it is a thought diminishes the importance of the content of the thought. But in reality there are not two thing: thought and content of thought. It is the same thing.
Whenever it happens, laugh.
It sounds fun, I'll do.
Can you stop thoughts ?
No, they come and go as they please. I have periods of time when I don't have any thoughts.
Then relax and wait for the Recognition, the discovery to occur.
Do you mean that it will happen by itself? ... of course, it looks like I'm doing something but in reality I cannot stop doing it, right?

love
Jose

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alfi
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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:42 am

Today I waked up early in the morning. I could not sleep any longer.
I went to listen to music, Mozart this time (see how rebellious) but I was not really in music mood.
Then I had the idea of observing the sense of self, the sense of me. I wanted to know what the sense of self was made of. It looks like it is mostly bodily sensations in my case. It was a very loving experience. Like if the body / sense of self was happy to be acknowledged.

I know you told me to relax but I cannot stop investigating. In the forum instructions it is asked for 100% commitment. It feels that I'm ready for 200%.

love
Jose

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:26 pm

Hi Vince,

I've the intuition that all I need to do is to see that the sense of self is false. I've read several times the example of believing in Santa. Once I see for myself that it is false, there is no way to believe again that is real again. Any hints on this?

thank you
Jose

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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:42 pm

I need to do is to see that the sense of self is false.
This is a critical point. i'm not just being pedantic here. The SENSE of Self is real. It is the feeling that is produced by the brain for very useful purposes. For example it locates your body in space and evokes a protection of it. etc.
It an actual, separate Self that is the illusion that needs to be seen through.
The ploy of LOOKing for it and not finding it, is just a pointer to what is Real. Can you find a Self anywhere ?
Can you SEE that it is nothing more than concept ? That it is only composed of thoughts ?

love

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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alfi
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Re: Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

Postby alfi » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:20 pm

Hi Vince,
The SENSE of Self is real. It is the feeling that is produced by the brain for very useful purposes. For example it locates your body in space and evokes a protection of it. etc.
I'm glad to hear that. I have a sense of self, mostly as bodily sensations. I think that I got it wrong before in the sense that this sense of self would go away.
It an actual, separate Self that is the illusion that needs to be seen through.
The ploy of LOOKing for it and not finding it, is just a pointer to what is Real. Can you find a Self anywhere ?
Yes, the self cannot be found. I can only find the sense of self.
Can you SEE that it is nothing more than concept ? That it is only composed of thoughts ?
Yes, when I say 'I', 'me' I don't know really what I'm referring to. Similarly, when talking to other people, it is like they were referring to a non-existent identity when they are worried with their self.
However, it seems to work! I can agree to go with friends for a beer and they and I go to the pub. So, in the latter case, it refers to the body-mind. I guess that this is what you refer to behaving as if having a self.

I'm in a halfway state. I have glimpses from time to time (e.g. like the real time unavoidability regarding choice) but I don't know where I stand. It is like Santa cannot be found but I'm still waiting to see my parents placing the presents under the Christmas tree. Maybe it is false expectation but my intuition is that it will be obvious that there is no sense of self. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you for your guidance and patience
Jose


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