Welcome Prajnamati

[Prajnamati]

Hi Deejay

intriguing suggestion: think i'll have to leave it till tomorrow when i'm more able to

come to this totally fresh

Love

Prajnamati

[Prajnamati]

Hi Deejay

Now point where others see your face.
What do you find?
Do you see your face?
What do you see?

I just saw the finger. I see two nose-shaped pink outlines to the left and the right, and sometimes my upper lip below, none of these were where the finger was pointing.

Now another step: point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. What do you see?

I see one finger pointing, seen from the wrist end: the finger tip further away; and another seen from the finger tip end: the wrist further away.

Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like.

A sort of puzzled sensation of having nothing (no visual impression) to interpret as 'my face'

Love

Prajnamati

[Deejay]

Hi Prajnamati,

I see one finger pointing, seen from the wrist end: the finger tip further away; and another seen from the finger tip end: the wrist further away.

Is that really all that's there in the visual field?

Try both bits of the exercise again.

In the space where others would see your face, what do you see?

love,
Deejay

[Prajnamati]

Hi Deejay

In the space where others would see your face, what do you see?

I don't really relate to anything I'm seeing in the centre of my field of vision as being "in the space where others would see my face": in this area I see my hands, arms, lower torso and legs, and the red carpet

Around my peripheral vision I see pink outlines of nose, upper lip and brows

Love

Prajnamati

[Prajnamati]

[copied from sms reply by Deejay]

Ok let's come back to this one. There is another way in to it. Let's look at agency and control. Raise an arm. How did that come about? Describe what you find.

Also try another physical action eg washing up. Anyone doing it?

Love Deejay

[Prajnamati]

Hi Deejay

Raise an arm. How did that come about? Describe what you find.

the easy bit to describe: i see the arm rise, and feel the play of muscle tension, tightening in the forearm and around the shoulder.

How did that come about: difficult to say in direct experience. In my mind I'm most aware of a sense of enquiry: 'what's going on?' There's an overall sense of intention to raise my arm and look at what's happening. I can't find anything particular in the moment just before i see and feel the arm raising.

try another physical action eg washing up. Anyone doing it?

I found i was wandering off and thinking about other things while a familiar activity of washing up played itself out. I was identifying with the part that was thinking about something else. Then I made a point of bringing my attention back to the activity of washing up, and again found I was most identifying with the enquiring part - there wasn't an obvious 'me' doing the washing up

Love

Prajnamati

[Prajnamati]

[copied from sms reply from Deejay]

You wrote of noticing an

overall intention to raise your arm

How is that known, i.e. what is the direct experience of an intention/volition?

You wrote

There wasn't an obvious me...

Was there any me washing up? However shadowy?

Love Deejay

[Prajnamati]

Hi Deejay,

what is the direct experience of an intention/volition?

There's a sort of focus of attention, which is the touch sensation equivalent of having a visual image in the centre of my field of vision and in focus. However, this is attentiveness, not intention/volition. I found no direct experience of an intention/volition.

Was there any me washing up? However shadowy?

There was no experience of a 'me' washing up, no: not even a shadowy one. There was just the experience of identification shifting from thoughts about other things to an experience of attentiveness and enquiry.

Love Prajnamati

[Deejay]

Hi Prajnamati,
So, transcribing our last bit of text dialogue:

Me:
You wrote of 'identification', and of how it shifted around. How do you know identification is happening? What is going on when there is 'identification'. Look when it seems to be occurring and describe please. Love Deejay

You:
There are a number of things going on, none very tangible. There's a view: not a worked out conclusion, more an assumption or way of relating to my experience. This is most apparent in a quality of resonance - so just at the moment 'I'm puzzled' resonates more than 'There is puzzlement'. The latter has a sort of dissonance, a 'no that's not quite it' quality.

There's a tone to my experience which varies from close/personal/engagement to distant/neutral, which I think is a sort of volition or absence of it: that's involved in the quality of resonance or dissonance. 'There is puzzlement' doesn't quite fit at the moment because it feels too neutral.

There's also a quality of breadth: I noticed when I got annoyed recently identifying with the anger came with a narrowness of awareness.

Reflecting on my experience brought a shift to identifying with a sense of enquiry which felt broader. Love Pm

[Deejay]

Hi Prajnamati,
Identification:

There are a number of things going on, none very tangible. There's a view: not a worked out conclusion, more an assumption or way of relating to my experience. This is most apparent in a quality of resonance - so just at the moment 'I'm puzzled' resonates more than 'There is puzzlement'. The latter has a sort of dissonance, a 'no that's not quite it' quality.

There's a tone to my experience which varies from close/personal/engagement to distant/neutral, which I think is a sort of volition or absence of it: that's involved in the quality of resonance or dissonance. 'There is puzzlement' doesn't quite fit at the moment because it feels too neutral.

Nice observations… it's all pretty flimsy, right? As you say, nothing very tangible.

There's also a quality of breadth: I noticed when I got annoyed recently identifying with the anger came with a narrowness of awareness.

Yes. Watch the awareness tighten and broaden… and see identification go up and down with it. See how identification is fabricated.

What else fabricates it?

What's going on with this 'neutrality' v 'close/personal/engagement'? What is that feeling fabricated out of - which sense - or is it thought content - or a combo?
You see the 'resonance/dissonance' as related - again which senses are involved - what's the resonance/dissonance built of?

To help, try this exercise, same territory: (from Ilona's website):

First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me.

I am laying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words..

Do it for 10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Then for next 10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:
Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the rain.

Again watch what is happening in the body.

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Love,
Deejay

[Prajnamati]

Dear Deejay

it's all pretty flimsy, right? As you say, nothing very tangible

All very flimsy: no tangible 'me', fascinating process though

Watch the awareness tighten and broaden… and see identification go up and down with it

as you say, my sense identification goes up - gets stronger - with tighter, narrower, less expansive states of awareness.

try this exercise

sounds intriguing: will try it tomorrow

Much love & gratitude

Prajnamati

[Prajnamati]

Hi Deejay

What's going on with this 'neutrality' v 'close/personal/engagement'? What is that feeling fabricated out of - which sense - or is it thought content - or a combo?

I think it's fabricated from a few mental states: there's a sense of interest and attentiveness behind the feeling of 'close/personal/engagement

You see the 'resonance/dissonance' as related - again which senses are involved - what's the resonance/dissonance built of?

Mind sense again I think: a sort of underlying view which may be dissonant with how I'm describing it

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one?

The second way seemed truer to experience - the repeated 'I am' didn't relate to any particular experience

What is here without labels?

Most of the labels point to some experience - sensations, thoughts, a quality of attentiveness that were still there without the labels - the 'I am' didn't

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

There was an effect: a sort of narrowing with the 'I am ...' labelling like squeezing in to a smaller space

Love
Prajnamati

[Deejay]

Hi Prajnamati,
Re what is fabricating the identification:
So: 'mental states', 'mind sense'.

What's going on with this 'neutrality' v 'close/personal/engagement'? What is that feeling fabricated out of - which sense - or is it thought content - or a combo?



I think it's fabricated from a few mental states: there's a sense of interest and attentiveness behind the feeling of 'close/personal/engagement

You see the 'resonance/dissonance' as related - again which senses are involved - what's the resonance/dissonance built of?



Mind sense again I think: a sort of underlying view

Ok. 'Underlying view' - what about in the present moment? How is 'an underlying view' known, or manifesting, in the moment?

Look out for familiarity playing a role in identification.

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one?



The second way seemed truer to experience - the repeated 'I am' didn't relate to any particular experience

Yes!!

Most of the labels point to some experience - sensations, thoughts, a quality of attentiveness that were still there without the labels - the 'I am' didn't

Yes!

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?



There was an effect: a sort of narrowing with the 'I am ...' labelling like squeezing in to a smaller space

Yes! So you observed the labelling helping fabricate the identification, right?

But there was another question in there, which it would be good to answer:

First part of exercise: 'Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?'
Second part of exercise: 'Again watch what is happening in the body.'

Love,
Deejay

[Deejay]

Posting your email reply whilst you are without enough connection for web:

Hi Deejay,

How is 'an underlying view' known, or manifesting, in the moment?

There's a sense of comfort in recognition of something known, an a sense of discomfort and anxiety or puzzlement when I don't recognise something at all: when I have no underlying vies of what it is

Look out for familiarity playing a role in identification.

The resonance is a lot to do with familiarity: I noticed arriving at the caravan a comfortable sense of familiarity with what was remembered, and a sort of dissonance where things had changed

First part of exercise: 'Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?'

A holding on, bit of headache and a slight tremble around the abdomen & forearms - a sense if unease.

Second part of exercise: 'Again watch what is happening in the body.'

Sleepier, heavier, more relaxed, stiller and calmer

Love Prajnamati

[Deejay]

Hi Prajnamati,

My q: How is 'an underlying view' known, or manifesting, in the moment?

There's a sense of comfort in recognition of something known, an a sense of discomfort and anxiety or puzzlement when I don't recognise something at all: when I have no underlying vies of what it is

Ok: but what is 'a sense of comfort' made up of? Which sense? Is it direct experience? Or thought content? Or a mixture?
If you have an 'underlying view' - how is it known what that view is?

My q: Look out for familiarity playing a role in identification.

The resonance is a lot to do with familiarity: I noticed arriving at the caravan a comfortable sense of familiarity with what was remembered, and a sort of dissonance where things had changed

YES!

You didn't respond to this: realise I should have made it clearer that I wanted a reply here:

So you observed the labelling helping fabricate the identification, right?

You've observed a lot about the process of identification. We've explored a number of different aspects of it.
Can you look at all of those and how they co-arise? Look again, observe the process, see it waxing and waning throughout the day.

Then describe it: how does it work, this 'identification', this illusion of 'I'?

Love,
Deejay