Looking for some direction

[Freddi]

I dwelled on this one... and it's the equivalent to the hearing and seeing question which opened up the gap

Yes these exercises all amount to the same thing, really, we are trying to find the self as "doer", "thinker", "experiencer". Do I sense something shifting here?

Fred

[Brant]

Do I sense something shifting here?

I'm not sure about any lasting shift. I feel I need to attack this from all angles until I flush out the little gremlins I don't even know I have.

I'm about to head to bed soon - I'll take another swing at it tomorrow.

[Freddi]

OK have a good night. As you are about to fall asleep, see if there is anyone or anything that can choose or decide when to fall asleep, then whether there is anyone or anything that can decide to wake up! ;-)

Fred

[Brant]

Looked during the afternoon. No real progress other than a realisation that trying harder is more assumption since there can't be a me to try harder and look. Looking just comes... I just have to watch and discard misleading thoughts as they arise.

Had a social event tonight so nothing to report for now. Will look again tomorrow.

[Freddi]

No real progress other than a realisation that trying harder is more assumption since there can't be a me to try harder and look 

Exactly. Who or what could make progress, the image of Brant in the thought? Progress is just another expectation. This is not about progress, effort, concentration, it is about the opposite of all those. It is about re-cognition, admitting what is always here.
Look at these "misleading thoughts" as they arise. Do you see the difference between what IS happening, i.e. seeing, touching, smelling, hearing, sensing, and what IS NOT happening, i.e. the commentary about the experience? There is, to use your words, like a gap between these two.

Here is a simple exercise to see the difference. Pick a fruit, and place it in front of you.
Close your eyes and imagine that you take the fruit in your hands, feel it. Texture, weight, shape, colour. Imagine that you are smelling it. Take a bite. Feel the sensation of taste. 

Then open your eyes and take a look, did anything happen to the fruit in front of you? Is there a sign of bite on it? 
Do you need to look in order to know that the bite is not there?

Now take the fruit in the hands and experience the shape, colour, texture, notice details. smell it and bite it. Feel the taste, texture. 

What is the difference between the same fruit imagined and experienced? 

Fred

[Brant]

I did that activity with lifting something. Yeah - as expected it's not quite the same.

I realised I have a sense of self in the thinker - namely the 'voice' inside my head which internally verbalises thoughts. It's quite hard to dislodge.

Tried to track what was the seer and kept discarding the images of a self which kept presenting themselves... over and over, nope - not me, what else?, nope not me, what else? what is seeing? over and over ... felt i was getting close to something. Perhaps the sense of self hides in the thinker? The voice??

[Freddi]

Hi Brant,

I did that activity with lifting something. Yeah - as expected it's not quite the same.

Are you referring to the exercise of picking up a fruit? Can you report and describe what you saw in direct experience? What is meant by "not quite the same"? We're going to need a bit more than this ...

It's quite hard to dislodge

Why the need to "dislodge" the voice inside your head? Can you dislodge a dark cloud? Or a hangover? Or a feeling of anger? Can "you" control any of these events? Or are they just part of what's happening?
Instead, can you make friends with it, be OK with it, welcome it, just see it for what it is?

Perhaps the sense of self hides in the thinker? The voice??

Observe that stream of thought-narrative, as if you were a silent listener hearing a storyteller. Is the sense of self anywhere to be found in the experiencing of the "voice" or is it in the story it tells you?

Fred

[Brant]

I need to take a break from this - it's getting me down. I'll post again in a few days.

[Freddi]

OK Brant, no problem. Take your time and give us a sign when you are ready to continue.

Warm wishes

Fred

[Brant]

Ok I'm ready to continue. So hard to see.

[Freddi]

Great, Brant, glad you're back.

So hard to see

Please contemplate what you wrote there for a moment. In this instant, do you hear? Do you touch? Do you smell? Do you see? This is IT. It is that simple. It take more effort not to see than to see. And in fact you can't help but see.

Are there any expectations you would like to talk about, Brant? What do you expect to see, other than this? How would it be different from this? Where do these expectations come from?

Warm wishes,

Fred

[Brant]

It's hard to not engage with thought and see clearly. So often I find myself in the trap of believing a 'me' is doing the looking, and only when I'm really vigilant can I disregard this belief. But then - since I haven't seen (or the brain hasn't acknowledged) the truth of there being no me aren't I just creating another belief to counter the current software program that there is a me. Confusing. There really is no progress to be had!

I have expectations, and it seems they're getting in the way at the moment. My expectations are that I swill see something (or nothing) that will show the brain "I" doesn't exist. The reason I have these expectations is because those that have taken this path all experience something of a sorts.

[Freddi]

The reason I have these expectations is because those that have taken this path all experience something of a sorts

Please consider these questions and give me an answer to each of them (from direct experience only).
1. Which examples are you thinking about, here? Can you list what comes up, and describe?
2. Can you really ever know someone else's experience?
3. Is what someone says automatically true, in your experience?
4. In that thought "I am not getting it", what is "it"? Is it something apart from what is already here and now?

Take your time, relax, keep coming back to what is real, here and now.

Fred

[Brant]

I was lieing on the floor last night and noticed the mind whirling away "this person is to blame for this and that etc etc" and decided I should look at what is. The mind of course suggested I grab a drink and settle in to things first, but I realised now was the best time (and the only time technically). Thoughts seemed to part away and I could see as clear as ever what is. Light level fear or some sort of emotional sensation began and I didn't know what to do or what to look for and I snapped out of it. It's like I reach a point and realise I'm onto 'something' and don't know what to do next or to get over the edge.

The reason I have this belief (I know, I know, all beliefs are false) is because I wonder why all the meditators out there haven't all popped into non-duality. I must need to do something or ask a question and find something to break down the belief of self forever right?

Ok - now to your questions. In direct experience

1) In hte past people write "oh wow I see it" or some such. They seem to have some sort of positive experience. I suppose this is holding me back because I'm looking for a concept - just content of thought. Exists in the same place as leprechauns riding unicorns.

2) No, and I can never really know anyone else exists outside of the current experience. I can't be sure the person I'm talking to isn't full of jelly beans.

3) The content of what they say can only be experienced as a concept. Same category as leprechauns riding unicorns.

4) My first comments answer this.

[Freddi]

I suppose this is holding me back because I'm looking for a concept - just content of thought. Exists in the same place as leprechauns riding unicorns

Exactly, same place as the unicorn. As soon as we think "I am not getting this experience", our mind has created not only an experience out of hearsay, but also an "I" that could get it. That's both the unicorn and the leprechaun.

No, and I can never really know anyone else exists outside of the current experience. I can't be sure the person I'm talking to isn't full of jelly beans.

Yes for all we know they are full of jelly beans. Well done!

The content of what they say can only be experienced as a concept. Same category as leprechauns riding unicorns.

That's right. In direct experience, there are apparent sounds coming out of apparent mouths, that's all, the rest is interpretation added on top. Leprechauns, unicorns, Santa, Batman. The lot.

I wonder why all the meditators out there haven't all popped into non-duality. I must need to do something or ask a question and find something to break down the belief of self forever

Nobody "pops" into non-duality/what is. There IS only non-duality/what is. It is only our thinking that tells us otherwise. So no need to "do", "ask" or "find". Stop looking and see what is plainly in front of you all the time.

Light level fear or some sort of emotional sensation began and I didn't know what to do or what to look for and I snapped out of it. It's like I reach a point and realise I'm onto 'something' and don't know what to do next or to get over the edge.

OK next exercise.
Do this again, and this time stay with the "light level fear" and "emotional sensation" (See how quickly our mind tries to interpret it and understand it, attaching a story to it, like "I'm onto something and I don't know what to do next"). Instead of following the invitation of the mind, stay in that gap between the experience and the mind commentary that you have previously noticed. Stay with the raw physical sensation and describe it to me. Remember I don't want to hear about interpretative thoughts, just the raw sensation, in the body. Invite these sensations, let them stay for a while, don't push them away. Describe and report as plainly as you can.

Fred