request still open

[Satyaprakash]

Dear Nona,
I have made several attempts at writing since your last post. The last two I was signed off and the drafts were lost in cyberspace. I was reporting on the arising of clarity, how easily thought was being seen in the present moment, creating a story. Moment by moment thought arising out of momentum from some fictional past. It was and is clear that there is no thing called an "I". Nor was there ever. There was a pressure lifted. I've been going for the past couple of days seemingly going in and out of this new view of reality.
With that said, I have come to see my root hangup. The place of being caught. It is still traces of a belief in control and the underlying fear of losing it. With that the story begins again. I am still trying to do the impossible! Pass through the gate trying to negotiate maintaining some semblance of control.
This has been a long standing, strong thought. I am afraid of what will come of my reality if I completely let go.

Sincerely,
Satya

[nonaparry]

Hi Satya!

I have come to see my root hangup. The place of being caught. It is still traces of a belief in control and the underlying fear of losing it. With that the story begins again.

So let's look at control. Tell me something over which you have genuine control. Something that nothing but you causes, and which invariably has the anticipated effect.
Check it! Do you really have/have you really ever had any control at all? Or is control another illusion, like self, that is supported by society and its rules and expectations? Society insists on holding people "responsible" for actions, as if we have control; but do we? Check it! What is absolutely under "your" control?

I am still trying to do the impossible! Pass through the gate trying to negotiate maintaining some semblance of control.

At least you recognise this is impossible!
Control is often the last part of the illusion of self to be seen through. Just keep LOOKing, observe with all the senses! In direct experience, that is sensation-prior-to-thought, do you have control? Or is control a thought or bundle of self-referential thoughts that get attached after the event? Check it!
Do you notice a voice-over commentary in the mind that describes what is happening as you go about your day? If you do, check whether the commentary is in sync with what is happening. Does the description exactly match the event? Or is it a bit delayed, like a movie in which the sound is out-of-sync with the picture?

I am afraid of what will come of my reality if I completely let go.

So tell me what Life would be like without a self in control. How would it be different from what it is now? What could you not do then that you do now?
And importantly, what is the fear hiding?
Fear is a useful friend: it helps us avoid danger! When I walk out on a precipice, fear stops me stepping off into thin air.
But fear can also be mistaken, alerting me to "danger" that is not actually danger, like a rope mistaken for a snake. I could fear losing my "self" or losing control. But is it actually possible to lose self or control? Can you ever lose something that you do not have? Something that does not even exist?

There is an interesting video in which neuroscientists look at the concept of "choice". I highly recommend you watch this and consider the implications: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E

love
Nona

[Satyaprakash]

Dear Nona,

Thank you so much for responding, and for you constant kindness and patience in walking me through this. You seem to know just which stones to lift up and and have me look under to see what's there and I'm so appreciative of that. These remaining threads of doubt, I think, are indicative of my wanting to be sure , authentic. I, at times,wonder if I am over thinking this too much. Trying to peek around the corner, so to speak , to see what is coming.

I am taking my time with your last series of questions. I want to check them thoroughly against the sense-before-descriptions. I should have responses before days end.

Thanks again. Talk to you soon

Satya

[nonaparry]

Yes, Satya; you are over-thinking.

The illusion cannot be seen through with the same thinking that creates it. Only by shifting from thinking to experiencing sensation-prior-to-thought, to direct experience, can the illusion be clearly seen.

I invite you to shift; shift focus to what is actually happening in Life without the Story, without the explanation, the description, the labels. Without labels, is there any control or controller? At all?

Without labels, what is left?

love
Nona

[Satyaprakash]

Hello again Nona,

I haven't yet submitted to our last inquiry, but I wanted to respond to your recent thoughts.

The illusion cannot be seen through with the same thinking that creates it. Only by shifting from thinking to experiencing sensation-prior-to-thought, to direct experience, can the illusion be clearly seen.

When I shift to sensation-prior-to-thought, it is just raw being. For sure, no stories. The body moves about, peacefully and without an agenda. Even painful thoughts seem to be neutralized when the pure sensation is allowed to come to the forefront of experience. This is my experience. Again I say and know there is no self, at all.

Question: Is this shifting necessary to maneuver here in the apparent world. The reason I ask, is because there is a tendency when being in the experience of raw sensation, to want to be a bit directionless.

Satya

[Satyaprakash]

I invite you to shift; shift focus to what is actually happening in Life without the Story, without the explanation, the description, the labels. Without labels, is there any control or controller? At all?

This is what I mean. You must have developed some stabilizing of perception. :) I don't know if that is the way to put it. Sensation-prior-to-thought feels very centered. There is no Controller !
It's is funny, I was watching a Youtube video of this nondual pointer, Rupert Spira today he was talking about how the universe/awareness manifests from a place of our innermost knowing. Somehow that makes sense. I'm still not sure of what if anything has happened. It just that this is. I think the shifting to what is actually happening is kind of ghost like...it feels like a state. How do you engage that in daily life and still be fully functional.

Thank you, my friend

Satya/ Steven (birth name)

[nonaparry]

Hi dear Satya,

When I shift to sensation-prior-to-thought, it is just raw being. For sure, no stories. The body moves about, peacefully and without an agenda. Even painful thoughts seem to be neutralized when the pure sensation is allowed to come to the forefront of experience. This is my experience. Again I say and know there is no self, at all.

Good. This sounds very peaceful!

Now in sensation-prior-to-thought is there any possession? Is there any control? Check very carefully. Our daily stories are full of possession (my cup, my computer, my life) and control (I did it, I'm going to do it, no one should do it). But are possession and control real experiences? Or are they only thought-stories, made up to describe a world in which we imagine we live?

You must have developed some stabilizing of perception.

Oh yeah? It's the same as seeing there is no actual entity Santa Claus, no actual Batman. I don't need to stabilise those perceptions; they are fictional characters and I never ever mistake them for real. I don't need stabilising of perception to SEE there is no actual unicorn, no actual tooth fairy. These are facts of life, not beliefs. Same as no self!

Sensation-prior-to-thought feels very centered.

Well it would do! Its our original state! Then socialisation happens and suddenly there are actions to do or not-do, correct and incorrect thoughts, stories of how IT should be or not be. But at any moment we can shift focus to sensation-prior-to-thought and re-centre in the peace that passeth understanding. This peace passes understanding because it is before understanding, before thought.

I think the shifting to what is actually happening is kind of ghost like...it feels like a state.

You think it's ghost-like; that's thought for ya! Does it actually feel ghost like? In which senses? Describe the sensation of being in a state. What does a state feel like?
Or is "it feels like a state" just another thought?

How do you engage that in daily life and still be fully functional.

My dear, you engage in daily life just as you always have done — without a self, without possession, without control. Just the same as before — fully functional! Only when you say or write "I, me, my", you see clearly that these are merely an aid to communication, labels that point to self-referential thoughts, rather than an indication that reality is in a one-to-one correspondence with language!
We are messy with our language, yet we imagine that language is a truth; but it's only a story. Anything that can be said or written, including this, is ultimately a story.

I look forward to your replies to my earlier questions.

love
Nona

[Satyaprakash]

Hello Nona,
Here is the inquiry responses from the other day.

So let's look at control. Tell me something over which you have genuine control. Something that nothing but you causes, and which invariably has the anticipated effect.

Although I can't predict the precise outcome of a course of action, some actions seem to point towards a general expected outcome. An example would be doing an exercise program. If one practiced push-ups, for example, there would be an expectation that the chest, shoulders, and biceps would develop, and they usually do. Or if you study for an exam, you could expect to get good grades.
Since I first responded to the questions my views have changed, but it is these kinds of questions/thoughts that occupy my mind, from time-to-time, even though I see clearly that there is no "I"
I really dont want to continue posting my responses from a couple of days ago. It feels redundant. As I said my views have changed. If you don't mind I would like to pick up on our most recent exchange.

Now in sensation-prior-to-thought is there any possession? Is there any control

Now in sensation-prior-to-thought is there any possession? Is there any control?

Absolutely not. There no-body, only sensation. This is where it gets spooky, hence the term "ghost-like". Just sensation without any meaning.

But at any moment we can shift focus to sensation-prior-to-thought and re-centre in the peace that passeth understanding. This peace passes understanding because it is before understanding, before thought.

Yes, Yes!! This I see. That is what lead to the stabilizing question above. I find when I shift to sensation, things seem so much more spacious and thought-less that I feel like I might be drifting. Now all of that I know is just new story, but in practical terms, like interacting with others, planning events etc. Is thought to be used selectively. What are the mechanics here. This is important to me because it seems that sensation-prior-to-thought is my way of seeing this clearly.

[Satyaprakash]

Oh yeah? It's the same as seeing there is no actual entity Santa Claus, no actual Batman. I don't need to stabilise those perceptions; they are fictional characters and I never ever mistake them for real. I don't need stabilising of perception to SEE there is no actual unicorn, no actual tooth fairy. These are facts of life, not beliefs. Same as no self

Of course, Nona, I get it on this level. No "I" exists, just as there's no tooth fairy or Santa. Maybe this is what I meant when I asked if I might be over-thinking this. If this is what it means to see, then I do, fully. But why do I still get spurts of anger or disappointment or sadness in response to events. I have to say though, lately they are not as big a deal as they have been in the past. Sometimes it is seen as just an arising. Does this have to mature? Not like a practice, is awakening more gradual with this.

Satya

[Satyaprakash]

Hi again Nona,

Sorry for the segmented responses. Hopefully my responses have not been too out of sync with the flow of our conversation. I have recently experienced being somehow logged out and subsequently losing what I had been writing. I know we have been alerted to this possibly happening and should cut and paste our drafts from.....?? Well, I'm not very computer savvy, but doing the best I can. My recent strategy has been, respond in shorter spurts, submit my entry and hope for the best. Hoping this doesn't bother too much.
I have been doing more LOOKing through the five senses and thought. It is seen that there is no self there controlling anything

So tell me what Life would be like without a self in control. How would it be different from what it is now? What could you not do then that you do now?

The thought comes that I wont be able to plan, organize, set goals to achieve. Those are my biggest fears:)!!
I know you have said everything goes on as usual, just without a seperate self as the controller pulling the strings, But...

[Satyaprakash]

Dear Nona,

I thank you so much untiring guidance and support. As I review these last entries of mine, I see a picture of a guy who sitting on the "fence". I question if it is possible to have seen, but due to holding some sort of expectation about what it should be like, I don't allow myself to commit to what I have seen. Here is what I can say for sure: When I look at experience through the senses-prior-to-thought, there is no "I, me, Satya, Steven, no- self. Really, there is nothing. Nobody doing, wanting, trying to get, see, be, do, or have anything. No controller, no sense of possession. The stories fall away. The objects and people are story-less, no descriptions and labels. There is a feeling of peace without the extra baggage of commentary. Now, when I end the exercise the peaceful feeling begins to crumble a bit around the edges and I find that thoughts are back. Maybe not as powerfully as before shifting focus to sensation. In fact, I seem to be able to let thoughts move by more easily sense we started our inquiry together.
You have pointed to this seeing and knowing as the equivalent to seeing through childhood fantasies. But as concrete as this knowing is, something doesn't feel complete. Perhaps at this point I need to go back to the drawing board, as they say, but something in clarity is missing.

Sincerely,
Satya

[Satyaprakash]

Hello again, Nona

The "thought" has been arising in awareness that some part of the remaining story of "I" isn't ready to walk through the gate. There is something here that is unwilling to commit. It may be a case of the old adage " before you can be a nobody, it may be necessary to fully embrace being a somebody first". I know this is all the stuff of stories, but the "thought" arises, along with some kind of knowing that liberation has been partial. I don't believe it's possible to be partially liberated, but that is the best description I can come up with for what it feels like here.

I feel like I'm spinning my wheels, and at the same time, wasting your precious time and energy. Maybe there are parts of the "I" story that need to be completed first, I don't know.

I'd like to know your thoughts on this matter.

As always, deep gratitude for your loving guidance, Nona.

Satya

[nonaparry]

Hi Satya,

I apologise for the delay in my responding.

Although I can't predict the precise outcome of a course of action, some actions seem to point towards a general expected outcome.

Yes. That is the story we tell after the event. We say, "I did this, and it caused that."
But is there ever just a single identifiable "cause" for any event? What event is not completely interdependent on a myriad of other events and circumstances? And where is the "I" that allegedly initiated the event?
Don't you see? It's our language that has us believing that this stimulus produced that response and that there was a stimulator in charge! In reality, there is only a seamless flow of events that thinking slices up into discrete units and describes as "before" and "after", "cause" and "effect".

it is these kinds of questions/thoughts that occupy my mind, from time-to-time, even though I see clearly that there is no "I"

So? The mind has to occupy itself with something, why not these? OR you can shift focus to direct experience and rest in peaceful silence.

I find when I shift to sensation, things seem so much more spacious and thought-less that I feel like I might be drifting.

Yes. Drifting in the seamless flow of Life!

Is thought to be used selectively. What are the mechanics here. This is important to me because it seems that sensation-prior-to-thought is my way of seeing this clearly.

Do you have any control over when thought shows up? Over which thoughts show up? The mechanics here are that thinking happens, just like every other event in Life. It's not something you get to decide about.

No "I" exists, just as there's no tooth fairy or Santa. Maybe this is what I meant when I asked if I might be over-thinking this. If this is what it means to see, then I do, fully.

Excellent!

But why do I still get spurts of anger or disappointment or sadness in response to events.

Because you do!
Did you imagine that seeing you have no self would make you anger- and disappointment-proof? That sadness would cease to show up? No way!!
Liberation is not some emotionless State! ALL the range of human emotions continue to show up! That's what it means to be human!
Liberation is SEEing that emotions happen to no one, that emotions have no control over happiness or peace.

I have to say though, lately they are not as big a deal as they have been in the past. Sometimes it is seen as just an arising.

EVERYthing you experience is just an arising. I invite you to check it in direct experience!

Does this have to mature? Not like a practice, is awakening more gradual with this.

The fact that there is no self does not mature; but the implications may take some time to integrate. And no wonder! You've got xx years of conditioned thoughts and behaviour all tied to the illusion that you are or have a separate self! Do you imagine that the habits of a lifetime will cease the moment you stop believing in the story of a "me"?

I have been doing more LOOKing through the five senses and thought. It is seen that there is no self there controlling anything

Excellent!! Good job!

So tell me what Life would be like without a self in control. How would it be different from what it is now? What could you not do then that you do now?

The thought comes that I wont be able to plan, organize, set goals to achieve. Those are my biggest fears:)!!

So check it!
You have lived xx years planning, organising, setting goals. And all that time there was no separate self doing all of that; it all simply happened as part of the flow of Life. Why do you imagine that now will be any different?

I question if it is possible to have seen, but due to holding some sort of expectation about what it should be like, I don't allow myself to commit to what I have seen.

It's not unusual. So LOOK with all your might! Leave no stone unturned!! Check everywhere! Is there any place a separate self/controller/director that runs "your" life could be hiding?

When I look at experience through the senses-prior-to-thought, there is no "I, me, Satya, Steven, no- self. Really, there is nothing. Nobody doing, wanting, trying to get, see, be, do, or have anything. No controller, no sense of possession. The stories fall away. The objects and people are story-less, no descriptions and labels. There is a feeling of peace without the extra baggage of commentary.

Yes. And isn't this what you've been looking for all along?

Now, when I end the exercise the peaceful feeling begins to crumble a bit around the edges and I find that thoughts are back.

And is that a problem if you don't believe your thoughts? If you SEE that thoughts are only mind-weather, clouds sliding across a brilliant blue sky, here and then passing, where is the problem?

You have pointed to this seeing and knowing as the equivalent to seeing through childhood fantasies. But as concrete as this knowing is, something doesn't feel complete.

What, other than your expectations about how this is supposed to be, is not clear? What is missing? Check very carefully and let's look at it!

The "thought" has been arising in awareness that some part of the remaining story of "I" isn't ready to walk through the gate.

Stories don't walk through a gate. It's too late to hang on to the story of a Satya separate from all of Life! The illusion has been seen for what it is.

It may be a case of the old adage " before you can be a nobody, it may be necessary to fully embrace being a somebody first".

You will never be more or less of a somebody than you have been for xx years. What cherished expectation has not been met? What was supposed to happen that has not? Please be very specific. Fireworks? Flashing lights? Eternal bliss? No more thoughts? No "negative" emotions? No disappointment, frustration, anger?
Don't avoid this because it feels un-spiritual; get real and let's sort this out!

love
Nona

[Satyaprakash]

Thanks for the tough love, Nona! OK, I've thrown a little cold water on my face and I'm ready to get real and do this!I am re-committed to answering honestly and only from direct experience. At the outset I just want to get crystal clear about something and that is how and what I am looking.I just want to know we are on the same page with our meaning. I understand looking as looking at what seems to be the experience of "my" life with all of the five senses-prior-to-thought. And by thought we mean: description, labels,explaining, commentary of any kind. Am I correct?

Don't you see? It's our language that has us believing that this stimulus produced that response and that there was a stimulator in charge! In reality, there is only a seamless flow of events that thinking slices up into discrete units and describes as "before" and "after", "cause" and "effect"

Ok, yes, I see it . Once again it is only thought and language that gives the appearance of cause and effect. Without the labels there is just pure sensation: Touch, hardness, softness, roughness, cold, hot, etc and none of these have an "I" nor a story.

it is these kinds of questions/thoughts that occupy my mind, from time-to-time, even though I see clearly that there is no "I"

So? The mind has to occupy itself with something, why not these? OR you can shift focus to direct experience and rest in peaceful silence.
I find when I shift to sensation, things seem so much more spacious and thought-less that I feel like I might be drifting.

Yes. Drifting in the seamless flow of Life!

Sorry about the look of the above, I haven't figured out how you do th quote within a quote thing.
But, it sounds like like you are saying that shifting focus to sensation-prior-to-thought can be respite from the chatter of the mind, is that right? And a way of coming back to the reality of life as a seamless flow?

Is thought to be used selectively. What are the mechanics here. This is important to me because it seems that sensation-prior-to-thought is my way of seeing this clearly.

Do you have any control over when thought shows up? Over which thoughts show up? The mechanics here are that thinking happens, just like every other event in Life. It's not something you get to decide about.

What I meant was, when thought does arise, can we accept it or reject it as needed to navigate through the affairs of life?
I will complete the rest in a later post. Thanks for hanging in there with me.
Satya

[nonaparry]

Hi dear Satya,

I understand looking as looking at what seems to be the experience of "my" life with all of the five senses-prior-to-thought. And by thought we mean: description, labels,explaining, commentary of any kind. Am I correct?

LOOKing is the process of Observing with the senses. For example, suppose I asked you to look for your cell phone. What would you do? You would scan the room with your eyes (sight), or pat your pockets with a hand (touch); if you couldn't locate it that way, you might use a landline to call your cell and listen for the ring (sound).
And yes, thought is description, labels, explanations, commentary; it is also expectations, images, concepts, abstractions. Thought is what you are in when you are not focused on sensation; focus on sensation excludes thought.

Once again it is only thought and language that gives the appearance of cause and effect. Without the labels there is just pure sensation: Touch, hardness, softness, roughness, cold, hot, etc and none of these have an "I" nor a story.

Exactly.

it sounds like like you are saying that shifting focus to sensation-prior-to-thought can be respite from the chatter of the mind, is that right? And a way of coming back to the reality of life as a seamless flow?

Yes indeed! At any moment, a shift in focus to sensation stops the relentless chatter/commentary and brings us back to what is actually happening in reality.

when thought does arise, can we accept it or reject it as needed to navigate through the affairs of life?

Thought invariably arises; and it is already accepted on the deepest, most fundamental level, or it wouldn't have shown up!
Anything that shows up in awareness has already been accepted. Yet you judge it, label it "good" or "bad", and then either surrender to it or resist it as if you had any control over it! Hahaha! And it's already been accepted! But this is what we do! How funny is that??!!

Looking forward to your further replies!

love
Nona