Still believing I'm outside

[Soulbug]

Hi Pete,
There is plenty of contradiction in my thinking, I see that clearly.
I need a little more time to really chew on this and answer with heart.
It will have to wait 'til tomorrow for a thorough reply.
Despite resistance that arises, there is so much gratitude here.
Thanks!

[moondog]

No problem Soulbug, take your time.

You're gratitude is very much appreciated.

Pete x

[Soulbug]

Hello Pete,

As I went for a walk in the woods nearby this morning, I dropped into a direct experience of sights and sounds, and chose to keep coming back to it as attention wandered back to story and interpretation. Just walking, just breathing, seeing and smelling etc.
Strange, but the other day, I couldn’t wrap my head around what direct experience even meant!

But that doesn't answer my question. Can you see, hear, smell, taste or touch this 'experiencer' in direct experience? If so, please describe it and tell me what it does and how it does it. If not, isn't it just another thought? If not that, what is it?

No, I cannot find the experiencer, except in the story, and the story is one thought as well.

Who is doing the dictating? And how can there be a 'my' if there's no you?

Here’s where I probably still have some resistance. The truth that I have no control, never did, and it’s all been a fantasy. I would love to accelerate my learning/acceptance of this, the heart is willing but the flesh isn’t.
Quite right though, if there’s no me, then there’s no such thing as control, history, beliefs, ideas, identity or belonging. There’s no learning, or acceleration or acceptance. It’s only life here and now, doing what it does in all its freedom and glory. There’s no me functioning behind it.
I get it and as I write it, I feel its truth and something in me is completely delighted.

So where is the room for a blind spot?

Following the truth, there’s no such thing as a blind spot. Just made up. Following the “me” logic, blind spot is there to thwart and to keep the fantasy alive.
Would it help just getting into a habit of living in direct experience more frequently, disengaging from concept mind?

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

No, I cannot find her.

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Here are sticky points. I cannot find the ghost who believes she controls and makes decisions. I can’t find her, but I think she’s there!

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Thought arises here. They come and go, and in direct experience they are neutral.
Yes, the body is life experiencing itself, and as such is neutral. The 5 senses are there bringing consciousness forward.

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’

Here’s another situation. I look “within” to dive into direct experience. It still feels there’s a within and without, despite understanding the allness of life itself.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Clearly, I still have doubt. I am not claiming to have a good “argument” here. It’s full of holes and inconsistencies and nonsense. But, it SEEMS like it’s real! In a nutshell I have doubt that I don’t have ANY control at all and that I can’t decide anything for this particular being.

Thanks for bearing with me and going over this with a fine-tooth comb.

[moondog]

Hi Soulbug,

As I went for a walk in the woods nearby this morning, I dropped into a direct experience of sights and sounds, and chose to keep coming back to it as attention wandered back to story and interpretation. Just walking, just breathing, seeing and smelling etc. Strange, but the other day, I couldn’t wrap my head around what direct experience even meant!

It's good that you can now 'allow yourself' to just relax into being present in this moment.

No, I cannot find the experiencer, except in the story, and the story is one thought as well

Excellent. She's just not there is she?

Here’s where I probably still have some resistance. The truth that I have no control, never did, and it’s all been a fantasy. I would love to accelerate my learning/acceptance of this, the heart is willing but the flesh isn’t.
Quite right though, if there’s no me, then there’s no such thing as control, history, beliefs, ideas, identity or belonging. There’s no learning, or acceleration or acceptance. It’s only life here and now, doing what it does in all its freedom and glory. There’s no me functioning behind it. I get it and as I write it, I feel its truth and something in me is completely delighted.

Don't worry about learning and acceptance. They do happen, but 'automatically'. There's no you doing anything. It just unfolds. I can see that you are becoming more accepting of all of this, as you learn not to believe what your thoughts tell you.

Following the truth, there’s no such thing as a blind spot. Just made up. Following the “me” logic, blind spot is there to thwart and to keep the fantasy alive.

Yes, it's just another thought-based reason to put you off and distract you. You've seen through it.

Would it help just getting into a habit of living in direct experience more frequently, disengaging from concept mind?

Attention just seems to come and go doesn't it. There's no avoiding that, but it is helpful to get into the habit of looking at what's being experienced as often as possible. It seems to be a kind of virtuous circle although, of course, there's no you making any of it happen. Just notice when you suddenly return to being present. It's a perfect example of an arising, 'your' attention, just happening. Nobody doing anything to be found anywhere.

Here are sticky points. I cannot find the ghost who believes she controls and makes decisions. I can’t find her, but I think she’s there!

It's not that decisions and choices don't happen, they do. If you recall in the BBC video, decisions did happen somehow and somewhere unknown, somewhere in the guy's brain I guess, but 6 seconds before he thought he made the decision. All you can do is look back at the exercises you did on control and choosing and see what happened. Now do them again. Can you find a doer, controller, chooser or decider there doing anything in direct experience? Are there any thoughts telling 'you' that you are somehow involved? Can you see any entity either present or causing anything in direct experience? If it's just a thought telling you that, do you believe it? If you do (even a bit) or just feel that it must be so, isn't that just another thought?

Thought arises here. They come and go, and in direct experience they are neutral.
Yes, the body is life experiencing itself, and as such is neutral. The 5 senses are there bringing consciousness forward.

Do the senses even do that, or are they too, just arising in awareness?

Here’s another situation. I look “within” to dive into direct experience. It still feels there’s a within and without, despite understanding the allness of life itself.

But, the main question is - is there a self 'in here?' If you can't find a self, it can't be anywhere. So, how can there be an inside or outside, if there's no you inside. Years of habit make it feel as if there's this kind of separation or boundary, but can you find one in direct experience when you say, see or hear something? Can you find a separate inside and a separate outside? Thinking or feeling it's there Doesn't make it so.

Clearly, I still have doubt. I am not claiming to have a good “argument” here. It’s full of holes and inconsistencies and nonsense. But, it SEEMS like it’s real! In a nutshell I have doubt that I don’t have ANY control at all and that I can’t decide anything for this particular being.

I get that. It can be a tricky one to fully accept straightaway because it's so different. But experience is telling you it's true. Look again and again to see that, to deepen that knowledge. Self, 'you' is no more than a thought that says there's a you. The doubt you still have, the feeling that it can't be real, again just thoughts. So, you are quite literally 'fooling yourself'. I can't stop that happening, only 'you' can. Just keep looking at how RealAudio brilliant your experience is, and how dead and unreal all you doubt-thoughts are.

Pete x

[Soulbug]

Hello Pete,

Thought there was a learning that I was just not getting. But it’s less complicated now. Thanks.

I am in need of an additional day to pore over these questions and redo the control exercises etc. Will post again tomorrow.

As ever, in gratitude of your time, love and care,
Soulbug

[moondog]

Hi Soulbug,

Thought there was a learning that I was just not getting. But it’s less complicated now. Thanks

Yeah, that's the thing; it's so simple, we have trouble seeing it. The mind just complicates and obscures our looking, if we pay it heed. If we just look, we just see.

Take your time, don't rush.

Pete x

Ps. When I said, 'how RealAudio brilliant your experience is' I wasn't being super-cryptic or anything, but maybe a gremlin or whatever snuck in the 'RealAudio' bit.

[Soulbug]

Hi Moondog,

Can you find a doer, controller, chooser or decider there doing anything in direct experience? Are there any thoughts telling 'you' that you are somehow involved? Can you see any entity either present or causing anything in direct experience? If it's just a thought telling you that, do you believe it? If you do (even a bit) or just feel that it must be so, isn't that just another thought?

In the raw moment of now, I cannot find any chooser or controller. It is becoming clearer, that this “one” is taking credit after the fact. Life is doing its thing, and the “me” thinker steps in and makes up my favorite story about it. It is also clearer that the story is just thought and therefore unreal. There’s no causer, only a belief in it keeping it alive.

Thought arises here. They come and go, and in direct experience they are neutral.
Yes, the body is life experiencing itself, and as such is neutral. The 5 senses are there bringing consciousness forward.

Do the senses even do that, or are they too, just arising in awareness?

Seems like senses arise in awareness within consciousness as the experiencer.

is there a self 'in here?' If you can't find a self, it can't be anywhere. So, how can there be an inside or outside, if there's no you inside.

Going back to your earlier question, “is there a difference between the thought ”I” and the thought of say, a table?” Same thing, no? In direct experience, no boundary, no separation exists.

Can you find a separate inside and a separate outside? Thinking or feeling it's there Doesn't make it so.

Thank goodness for that!

Just keep looking at how RealAudio brilliant your experience is, and how dead and unreal all you doubt-thoughts are.

I am looking closely with more accuracy and just simply trusting more. The underpinnings of this thought system are unraveling.
RealAudio brilliant -I love it!

Thanks Pete!

[moondog]

Hi Soulbug,

In the raw moment of now, I cannot find any chooser or controller. It is becoming clearer, that this “one” is taking credit after the fact. Life is doing its thing, and the “me” thinker steps in and makes up my favorite story about it. It is also clearer that the story is just thought and therefore unreal. There’s no causer, only a belief in it keeping it alive.

That's it in an absolute nutshell. You got it.

Seems like senses arise in awareness within consciousness as the experiencer.

It looks to me as if it's all become a lot clearer to you now, so sorry to be picky, but I just need to be sure what you mean when you say 'awareness within consciousness as the experiencer'. Awareness is effectively the same as consciousness. There's no my consciousness and no my awareness, neither are personal in any way. Do you agree?

My main question is, given that there's no you to be found at all, what is the experiencer? Can you find one, or is there simply experiencing?

Going back to your earlier question, “is there a difference between the thought ”I” and the thought of say, a table?” Same thing, no? In direct experience, no boundary, no separation exists.

Wonderful, you can see that.

I am looking closely with more accuracy and just simply trusting more. The underpinnings of this thought system are unraveling.

Yes, it really works when you just look in direct experience, fully accepting and trusting what is. The corollary to this is that it then becomes easier to simply accept your thoughts as they arise, whilst not believing what they say is real.

So, you really seem to have clarified a lot of what you can see as experience and what's simply imagined, thought. So, I just want to put to you the following questions:

Is there now any doubt or unclarity that the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

If you still do have doubts (and by that I don't mean the 'usual' doubt thoughts that just arise, stick around for a bit and then subside, but doubts that are still taken seriously), please explain what they are and we'll look more deeply at what the problem appears to be. If you don't, we'll move ever onwards and upwards.

Pete x

[Soulbug]

Hi!

My main question is, given that there's no you to be found at all, what is the experiencer? Can you find one, or is there simply experiencing?

Yeah. I still think I am a little hung up here, not firmly grounded in direct experience. The concept of experiencer floats back and I am hooked. Absolutely, I see that in the now moment, I cannot find the experiencer. Yes, only breathing, hearing, sensing.

Yes, it really works when you just look in direct experience, fully accepting and trusting what is. The corollary to this is that it then becomes easier to simply accept your thoughts as they arise, whilst not believing what they say is real.

I had a powerful experience yesterday of feeling saturated in god, consciousness, love, life. The absence of “me” in nature was so clear, so joyous and pure ie. a tree has no sense of “me-ness”. I knew I was nature as well, I was that same awareness presence. I felt the power of life arising. I hung out there for a while, and noticed much more clearly when I attached to thoughts. I felt their heaviness and burden, although I don’t remember what they were. Somewhere in there, fluctuations happened and eventually “me” came back into view and there I was. From RealAudio to dull!
I know there’s no me, but my belief in it returned. Not in quite the same way though.

Is there now any doubt or unclarity that the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Yes, I suppose so, although it’s loosening and I deeply appreciate the insights I have received.

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

Hmmm. I have no doubt that believing in separation, indeed any thoughts, lead to suffering. I believe that I am not this body, I believe my true nature is awareness itself, eternally one with the Absolute, no distance. Where I have lingering doubts, is it still feels like this is a localized bundle here, within this body. A collection of energy experiencing itself in here. I can get that it’s not “mine”, but I still can’t shake that I am not responsible for any of it-even if I can’t find the chooser, decider, thinker, actor and believer. I know, makes no sense, but there you have it!

PS. you are not picky. Pick away- it’s gonna pay off ;)
Thanks!

[moondog]

Hi Soulbug,

Yeah. I still think I am a little hung up here, not firmly grounded in direct experience. The concept of experiencer floats back and I am hooked. Absolutely, I see that in the now moment, I cannot find the experiencer. Yes, only breathing, hearing, sensing.

But again this is just what thought tells you, that you're not grounded in direct experience. It's just a matter of being present in this moment, that's all. We all do it, frequently every day but don't realise it and thoughts drag us away. When you're present, just notice thoughts when they come, and you'll come back to direct experience, until you drift off again. So it goes. It's fine, you can see that there's no experiencer, whenever you look for one. That's it.

I had a powerful experience yesterday of feeling saturated in god, consciousness, love, life. The absence of “me” in nature was so clear, so joyous and pure ie. a tree has no sense of “me-ness”. I knew I was nature as well, I was that same awareness presence. I felt the power of life arising. I hung out there for a while, and noticed much more clearly when I attached to thoughts. I felt their heaviness and burden, although I don’t remember what they were. Somewhere in there, fluctuations happened and eventually “me” came back into view and there I was. From RealAudio to dull.

Sounds amazing and shows how profound an effect this is having. Remember however, that states just come and go, as this one did. So long as, whenever you look, whatever state you're in, you can see that there's no self to be found, that's all that matters. And remembering that thoughts are just impersonal arisings, whose contents are not real or therefore reliable.

I know there’s no me, but my belief in it returned. Not in quite the same way though.

Just thoughts trying to seduce you again, that's all.

Is there now any doubt or unclarity that the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Yes, I suppose so, although it’s loosening and I deeply appreciate the insights I have received.

Can you say a bit more about why you still take seriously the doubts that arise that say the self isn't just a mental fabrication, given all that you've seen for yourself in direct experience. Also, how is the 'loosening' manifesting?

Hmmm. I have no doubt that believing in separation, indeed any thoughts, lead to suffering. I believe that I am not this body, I believe my true nature is awareness itself, eternally one with the Absolute, no distance. Where I have lingering doubts, is it still feels like this is a localized bundle here, within this body. A collection of energy experiencing itself in here. I can get that it’s not “mine”, but I still can’t shake that I am not responsible for any of it-even if I can’t find the chooser, decider, thinker, actor and believer. I know, makes no sense, but there you have it!

Mm, believing is just thought based on other thought. All we're interested in here is 'you' knowing that you're not the body, experiencer, doer, controller, chooser thinker etc. based entirely on what you've experienced not on thought content. And you've very definitely told me that is now your experience. In exactly the same way, just as you don't rely on thoughts and beliefs that there is no self, you don't pay any serious heed to thoughts telling you the opposite!

PS. you are not picky. Pick away- it’s gonna pay off ;)

Yeah, it looks like it is doing. You just need to trust more in 'experience.

Pete x

[Soulbug]

Hello Pete,

But again this is just what thought tells you, that you're not grounded in direct experience. It's just a matter of being present in this moment, that's all. We all do it, frequently every day but don't realise it and thoughts drag us away. When you're present, just notice thoughts when they come, and you'll come back to direct experience, until you drift off again. So it goes. It's fine, you can see that there's no experiencer, whenever you look for one. That's it.

I see. I suppose I have been anticipating losing the “me” altogether. That somehow, I would see that all thought is a fabrication and that state of awareness of my eternal awareness would cease to come and go.
I see what you’re saying, just keep looking at the thoughts which keep me from just being here now, including “I’m not grounded in awareness right now”. The minute I notice I am back in awareness experience. Is that right?

Remember however, that states just come and go, as this one did. So long as, whenever you look, whatever state you're in, you can see that there's no self to be found, that's all that matters. And remembering that thoughts are just impersonal arisings, whose contents are not real or therefore reliable.

OK, just keep looking under everything to see there’s no self in there, no matter what the experience.

Can you say a bit more about why you still take seriously the doubts that arise that say the self isn't just a mental fabrication, given all that you've seen for yourself in direct experience. Also, how is the 'loosening' manifesting?

Truly, I believe I am afraid to let it all go. I took a deep look at this yesterday and asked myself what was in the way of me just dropping it all (me). After listing some things that appeared to be in the way, I realized a generalized fear under it and asked myself why let it hold me back, when I know that heaven awaits.
I guess the “loosening” is manifesting as relaxing into the truth more.
I know, more thought.

Mm, believing is just thought based on other thought. All we're interested in here is 'you' knowing that you're not the body, experiencer, doer, controller, chooser thinker etc. based entirely on what you've experienced not on thought content. And you've very definitely told me that is now your experience. In exactly the same way, just as you don't rely on thoughts and beliefs that there is no self, you don't pay any serious heed to thoughts telling you the opposite!

Believing is fallible, but knowing is unshakable. I guess I am still brainwashed to a degree, and still trusting belief and thought over clear and present knowing. I am still rocking back and forth between “two worlds”. Just another thing I made up.
I know, it’s crazy, I can’t find it but I still believe it!
I see what you are telling me, that solely based on experience, not my grandiose thoughts about it, I do know that I cannot find the doer.

You just need to trust more in 'experience.

Just feel it, just be it, without the mind story around it.

Thanks

[moondog]

Hi Soulbug,

I see. I suppose I have been anticipating losing the “me” altogether.

Yes, but how can 'you' lose what was never there in the first place? This is never about getting rid of anything. The self is just a thought insisting there's a you, but it's nowhere to be found, doesn't exist, never has.

I see what you’re saying, just keep looking at the thoughts which keep me from just being here now, including “I’m not grounded in awareness right now”. The minute I notice I am back in awareness experience. Is that right?

Whenever you're aware of just this, which can only ever be here, now, that's it, that's direct experience. Can you find an 'I' there, or any problems at all?

OK, just keep looking under everything to see there’s no self in there, no matter what the experience.

Well, not so much under, because there isn't really any under, but the sole point of our process together has been simply for 'you' to look at your direct experience in every way possible. This you have done and you have found no you, no self. As I've said before, looking again at 'your' experience helps deepen that certainty that there's no self. But you don't have to keep looking indefinitely to see no self. Once you've looked a good few times at most, you just simply know, as I'm sure by now, you do. Just like you know there's no Santa, you know there's no you. The myth has gone. I still often look, but just because I love it; it's reality, it's the truth. No other reason.

Truly, I believe I am afraid to let it all go. I took a deep look at this yesterday and asked myself what was in the way of me just dropping it all (me). After listing some things that appeared to be in the way, I realized a generalized fear under it and asked myself why let it hold me back, when I know that heaven awaits. I guess the “loosening” is manifesting as relaxing into the truth more.

Still, you're believing what thought's telling you, like there's a you to drop you and a you to be dropped, when there's neither, just thoughts still telling you that, and telling you that you're afraid to let go. Who is there to let go? See your thoughts for what they are, impersonal arisings. Look in direct experience and see that there's no you to be found and no you to be looking. There's just looking.

Believing is fallible, but knowing is unshakable. I guess I am still brainwashed to a degree, and still trusting belief and thought over clear and present knowing. I am still rocking back and forth between “two worlds”. Just another thing I made up.
I know, it’s crazy, I can’t find it but I still believe it!
I see what you are telling me, that solely based on experience, not my grandiose thoughts about it, I do know that I cannot find the doer.

Just more thoughts distracting you from looking and from knowing that what you've seen is the truth. The alternative is make believe.

Pete x

[Soulbug]

Hi Pete,

Yes, but how can 'you' lose what was never there in the first place? This is never about getting rid of anything. The self is just a thought insisting there's a you, but it's nowhere to be found, doesn't exist, never has.

I think I am getting it now. It’s not adding or subtracting. It already is-what has always been. There’s no me anywhere, and in the absence of belief in it, it’s only pure truth.

Whenever you're aware of just this, which can only ever be here, now, that's it, that's direct experience. Can you find an 'I' there, or any problems at all?

Yeah, in “right here”-no problem.

Once you've looked a good few times at most, you just simply know, as I'm sure by now, you do. Just like you know there's no Santa, you know there's no you. The myth has gone.

Thanks for your confidence in me. Yes I have seen it, but I don’t think I’ve really knocked this thing out of the park yet. It still feels temporal, belief in the self returns. Am I not looking and looking so that this knowing is unshakable? Doubtless awareness? Still feel like there’s more to go.

Still, you're believing what thought's telling you, like there's a you to drop you and a you to be dropped, when there's neither, just thoughts still telling you that, and telling you that you're afraid to let go.

Again, nothing to drop, no one to fear, no one to be brainwashed and no body to rock back and forth. I see this now.

See your thoughts for what they are, impersonal arisings. Look in direct experience and see that there's no you to be found and no you to be looking. There's just looking.

I follow your lead. Thanks again Pete!

[moondog]

Hi Soulbug,

I think I am getting it now. It’s not adding or subtracting. It already is-what has always been. There’s no me anywhere, and in the absence of belief in it, it’s only pure truth.

Yep, that's it. There's just what's happening right now.

Yeah, in “right here”-no problem.

Good, if you mean, 'In the present moment, there can be no problem.

Yes I have seen it, but I don’t think I’ve really knocked this thing out of the park yet. It still feels temporal, belief in the self returns.

I don't understand how you can say, Yes I have seen it, and then go on to say but I don’t think I’ve really knocked this thing out of the park yet. It still feels temporal, belief in the self returns. If you've seen it, you've seen it and it can't be unseen. It's not a magical state or anything, just a knowing that a separate self-entity is an illusion. What is it that you're looking for? It still sounds like you're expecting a permanent state where beliefs, i.e. I-thoughts telling you that there really is a self etc. no longer arise. Don't expect these to just stop. Just don't entertain them when they arise but get back and check, asking 'yourself' 'Is there a me anywhere here? ' 'Ah no, nothing. Good.'

Am I not looking and looking so that this knowing is unshakable? Doubtless awareness? Still feel like there’s more to go.

I wasn't saying not to keep looking, I just meant, after a good few goes, you'll not need to keep doing it except for its own sake, for fun. Is there really more to go? If you've seen no self, what could that be? I sure don't know. This is just 'you' listening to yet more thoughts I reckon. Just trust what you're seeing in direct experience. Once you can truly admit to yourself that you've done it, that's it. Then, over time, all sorts of beliefs and behaviours will start to fall away. That's where the fun starts.

Still, you're believing what thought's telling you, like there's a you to drop you and a you to be dropped, when there's neither, just thoughts still telling you that, and telling you that you're afraid to let go.

Again, nothing to drop, no one to fear, no one to be brainwashed and no body to rock back and forth. I see this now.

Brilliant. So, can you now see that the thought/feeling that there's still more to go, is really just another way for your ego to try and distract you from finally accepting what you've seen, once and for all?

Pete x

[Soulbug]

Dear friend,

don't understand how you can say, Yes I have seen it, and then go on to say but I don’t think I’ve really knocked this thing out of the park yet. It still feels temporal, belief in the self returns. If you've seen it, you've seen it and it can't be unseen.

I am grateful it cannot be unseen, but this apparent dance between seeing and life behind the veil feels valid.

It's not a magical state or anything, just a knowing that a separate self-entity is an illusion. What is it that you're looking for?

I am not expecting magic, only the peace that comes with the fundamental knowledge that I am THAT. And no, I am not anticipating sudden obliteration of the ego, but a tipping of the scales, so to speak, into truth. That will do.

Don't expect these to just stop. Just don't entertain them when they arise but get back and check, asking 'yourself' 'Is there a me anywhere here? ' 'Ah no, nothing. Good.'

Gotcha.

after a good few goes, you'll not need to keep doing it except for its own sake, for fun.

I guess I am not in the fun zone yet. Not that it’s painful at all, I guess it’s just unfamiliar.

Once you can truly admit to yourself that you've done it, that's it.

Yeah, that seems right. I probably am lying to myself.

So, can you now see that the thought/feeling that there's still more to go, is really just another way for your ego to try and distract you from finally accepting what you've seen, once and for all?

I can accept that it’s total b.s. but I DO still feel like I need to have some penny dropping insight. Color me crazy (and that I must be if I am lying to myself), but
it’s what I want!

Thanks!