The Gate

Without thoughts and mental images, there is absolutely no distinction between the experience, experiencer and the experienced (in fact, none of those words have any meaning without thoughts).
The experience of 'this' and 'that' is created by thoughts and mental images.

Lovely, I could feel the direct expeience here:

Then the next thought/mental picture comes about and a the 'story of me' is again alive.

Yep, is this not supposed to happen or are you just saying?
Just a few words about thoughts and thinking, as they've been such a strong underlying theme in your posts. Thoughts are fine, there's nothing wrong with them and they won't go away anyway. They're here to stay and they can be very useful for practical things like analysis, planning etc. However, the problems start when we confuse what thoughts say with reality: direct experience of what's happening right now. Many thoughts, aside from taking the credit for thoughts and actions, consist of opinions, judgements about 'others' and 'ourselves', worries about the past and future, all 'designed' to protect and benefit this self that thought continually tells us is running the show, but isn't anywhere to be found, except as merely a reference, a concept, in that very thought. I'm only concerned in showing you where to look. But when you do look into your direct experience and find no 'you', no self-entity, except as the content of persistent thoughts, you'll know what is real, and what is just a story. Hope this helps.

Spend the day particularly noticing the place of thoughts in the whole display of experience and each time check if thoughts are just thoughts about a you OR if is all real, including a self. It's like asking you to watch a dil and see if the main character is a real person or a character in a film. Look forward to hearing. x

PS: I meant film not dil! :-)
It's like asking you to watch a film and see if the main character is a real person or a character in a film

Yep, is this not supposed to happen or are you just saying?

I was just explaining what happens.

Spend the day particularly noticing the place of thoughts in the whole display of experience and each time check if thoughts are just thoughts about a you OR if is all real, including a self. It's like asking you to watch a dil [film] and see if the main character is a real person or a character in a film. Look forward to hearing. x

The stream of thought provides a commentary on what's going on (or what happened in the past /what might happen in the future). Many of these thoughts have 'I' as the subject and these thoughts are only pointing to other thoughts when they refer to an 'I'.

After having looked, it is clear that thoughts occur spontaneously and not under the control of a 'me'. However these thoughts are so 'loud', that many times during the day, the above realization is forgotten, so there is suffering. This is why I keep mentioning thoughts so much.

the above realization is forgotten

Yes forgetting happens...and re investigation happens.any evidence of a I doing either?

Its OK to keep mentioning thoughts as its the place you seem to most identify an I with, so lets keep looking. It is the identification with an I that causes suffering. Take a look, is suffering anymore than thoughts and sensations? Please share some examples of this mix, and then check is there an I having the thoughts and sensations or are they just doing a dance on their own?

Lets keep it daily to keep the momentum up, breaking through the illusion of self needs to be a passionate search for truth, it changes everything...and nothing!

Warmth,
Smudge

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCtCMuoV ... 4-overview

Take a look at this too

x

Take a look, is suffering anymore than thoughts and sensations? Please share some examples of this mix, and then check is there an I having the thoughts and sensations or are they just doing a dance on their own?

Being a lazy Sunday, there wasn't much suffering going on today. Things might be different when I go to work tomorrow - so I will answer this tomorrow.

Meanwhile, I continued with yesterdays's question (is the actor in the film real?). Specifically, whenever I remembered, I looked for what the 'I' in thoughts was pointing at. Here are the results:

When it refers to the past, as in the thought: 'I felt anxious last week', the 'I' is pointing at a memory (mental image of 'me' along with some bodily sensations).

When it refers to the future, as in the thought 'I have so much to get done this week' , the 'I' is pointing to a mental image (along with some bodily sensations).

When it refers to the present, as in the thought 'I am hungry', it's pointing to the current sensory experience+thoughts (in this case, the sensation of hunger).

I had already seen that thoughts occur on their own, but today, for the first time I saw how this happens dynamically - over a couple of hours. Each 'I' thought is pointing to a different thought/sensation/memory etc.

In fact, the 'I' in the above sentence is also pointing at a specific memory/mental image.

ha!


(more tomorrow!)

Fabulous! So, so far no real I in thoughts, just a main character called Till in a story.

Each 'I' thought is pointing to a different thought/sensation/memory etc.

Thought is just a description machine hey.

Look forward to hearing more about this in terms of suffering as this seems the main sticking point in terms of there seeming to be an I then.

There was definitely suffering today. I can only speak about this in retrospect as there was no seeing going on (I did not remember to 'look' )when there was suffering.

As an example, I was working on a project at work and things were not going well. There were many thoughts along the lines "This is not working", "I have to figure this out". These thoughts were accompanied by intense sensations (anxiety) in the stomach/chest.

As I remember is suffering was mainly created by thoughts about 'me' occurring spontaneously. I think it would be more useful to see this happen in real time.

Plan for tomorrow: see how suffering occurs as it occurs

Sure, stay with it so you see for sure all of the ingredients that give a false belief in self.
Report back, does suffering = Till? or does suffering = thoughts and sensations.
Set your phone to go off at regular times throughout the day a reminder to look.

does suffering = Till? or does suffering = thoughts and sensations.
Set your phone to go off at regular times throughout the day a reminder to look.

That turned out to be a good idea. Here's a report on one occasion when the phone went off:

There was suffering going on at this point in time. I was at work, and I had just run a test, and the outcome was the opposite of what I wanted. There were thoughts arising one after another - most of the were similiar to:
"I need to figure this out now, even if I skip lunch"
"This makes my life so much more complicated"
"At this rate I will never finish before the deadline"

These 'I' thoughts were accompanied by strong sensation and tightness in the chest (anxiety).

All the 'I' thoughts above occured all on their own, and they were pointing at (mainly) mental images. When there are feelings present, these thoughts seem more real and it's easy to not realize that they are not created by, or pointing o a self.

So, suffering is a combination of thoughts and sensations. In fact, seeing how suffering is a combination these eliminates suffering.

Even after seeing this though, I spent a great deal of the day believing in a self and only remembered to 'look' when the phone went off.

So, suffering is a combination of thoughts and sensations. In fact, seeing how suffering is a combination these eliminates suffering.

YES, from DE this is a fact!

Even after seeing this though, I spent a great deal of the day believing in a self and only remembered to 'look' when the phone went off.

Did 'you'? or was belief just happening?
Can a thought do anything?

This above statement shows that there is no control over thoughts, another fact, lets look at control:

Get up... walk slowly...
is there a controller that controls walking?
or is there just walking

Report back from DE.

Did 'you'? or was belief just happening?
Can a thought do anything?

'I' didn't. It's just that thoughts occurred and the realization of no-self was not remembered.

Get up... walk slowly...
is there a controller that controls walking?
or is there just walking

There is no sign of a controller - there is just awareness of the walking.

thoughts occurred

Yes, they do that :-)

There is no sign of a controller - there is just awareness of the walking.

Are there 2 things here, walking, and awareness of it? Answer from DE please.

Can I check in with you Till, how are you doing with this process, its hard sometimes to tune in via typed words.

Warm wishes
Smudge

[/quote
Are there 2 things here, walking, and awareness of it? Answer from DE please

walking and awareness are concepts. In DE, there is just one thing - so there's no distinction between walking and awareness of it.

Can I check in with you Till, how are you doing with this process, its hard sometimes to tune in via typed words.

I no longer think that there is an 'I'. In fact occasionally this realization is there completely, and thoughts, sensations, body and feelings are seen to have no self. At these times life becomes an experience - a flow and everything is experienced vividly and fully.
The other day I was talking to someone and suddenly, it became a vivid experience. Me, the other person, the walls, the light, the talking - all became one.

However these moments last only a short while and I find myself reverting back to old habits of identifying- that's, frustrating.

I find myself reverting back to old habits of identifying- that's, frustrating.

So look at that sentence and lets see what is really happening:
It sounds like a story of identification happens, yes,

thoughts occur

as you said and habitual ones most likely can be counted on to keep showing up.

"thats frustrating"

so these thoughts also arise with a feeling, i.e. sensation in the body, of frustration.= suffering huh.

"I find myself"

what, outside of story, is this I thats finds a different myself?

These storys aint going away (at least for now) my friend, best we see them for what they are. Lets drop this expectation that seeing through self is a constant experience with no suffering, its getting in the way, look at what is going on, storys, feelings, sensations, actions.....arising and passing away in an infinite dance, amazing! x