Looking for some guidance

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Shall respond shortly
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

That's fine. It's quite a lot of questions, so if you want to respond bit by bit that's fine too.


Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark

1. Is there a separate entity, 'self', 'me', 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I can see that the I entity is just another thought and has always been just that.

I feel that I can answer these questions just from the insights gained through our dialogue but where does that leave me. Leave who you will say. My days are non stop "I am thoughts."
I am exhausted. Who is exhausted? Round and round and round it goes. Where is some peace, joy, relief, clarity, perception? There is nothing I can say really. I wrote this just because I said I would.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Some frustration is coming through in your response. The more that thinking is used as the vehicle to try to 'get to the truth', the more anguish and suffering continues. Some of the concepts sound right, but what this is about is seeing what is, not theorising about what we think it is, or should be, or trying to work it out. The mind always wants to keep in on the act, however subtly, keeping the sense of self in play eg 'self plus insights', seeking, guilt etc.

Don't bother about 'insights gained through our dialogue' or previous teachings received: mainly look at the sensations and feelings emerging, just giving factual information where it's called for:-

A).

I can see that the I entity is just another thought

What do you mean by this? Can you give examples? Are there any instances where "Robert" seems to be in play?

B)

.. and has always been just that.

So the "carnage" and "wake of destruction" you referred to earlier? What are those? The "others" affected? The seeker? The person who suffered?

C)

I am exhausted.

That figures! Nirvana = "I am extinguished/extinct".

D)

Where is some peace, joy, relief etc?

Again, is it joy, peace and relief that are sought here, or is just WHAT IS ok, no holds barred?

Relax, let the feelings be there. Let me know what comes up.

All the best

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Thanks for that.

Where is some peace, joy, relief etc?
Again, is it joy, peace and relief that are sought here, or is just WHAT IS ok, no holds barred?

Relax, let the feelings be there. Let me know what comes up.

This seems to be sticking point. This is what comes up.

Just what is, is not ok. It never has been - even if things are good, they could be better. I guess it's never good enough.
There has got to be more than this.
Why should I be ok with miserable? Why should I be ok with things not working?
Look at all these other people in gatecrashers they get some joy, peace, relief, etc?
Why not me?
Can I just get a little peace and quiet, is that to much to ask?
Could I just get a little "guidance, help, direction, support, is that to much to ask? (Speaking from a divine perspective)
What's the point of doing all this if nothing's going to change/work?
Same miserable me, same miserable life.
Like they say, " You can't have your cake and eat it too."

That's what came up.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

..and how about the other questions?

M

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
I will try and answer a little quicker in the right here and now so I don't get so mental.

I can see the I entity is just another thought.
What do you mean by this? Can you give examples?

When looking at the substance of a thought - there is nothing there. Example: I am sick and tired of this. I see it is just another thought, there is actually no I am person in that thought. There is a sensation associated with it but that seems to just the feeling of "sick and tired" with no attachment.

Are there any instances where "Robert" seems to be in play?

Looking at this I would have to say, yes. It seems he is the worrier. So when having to deal with or think about my current situation there seems to be an onslaught of I am thoughts.

That's this one.
Thanks
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark

So the "carnage" and "wake of destruction" you referred to earlier? What are those? The "others" affected?

From the vantage point of the idea of Robert that was his perspective at that time. Right now the sense is that this was life interacting with itself in the form of Robert and others to experience these perspectives. That this was somehow an experienced thought (Sequence).

The seeker? The person who suffered?

This is also an experienced idea of someone who is seeking. An experienced idea of someone who is suffering.
That brings up the question, what if I don't want to experience the idea of the seeker/sufferer anymore.

Thanks
Robert

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Last one.

C)

I am exhausted.
That figures! Nirvana = "I am extinguished/extinct".

Maybe that's because I am hanging on tooth and nail. A real bulldog. Never give up, never quit, never say die. Oy vey.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Thanks for all of that Robert.

Ok and from the B question, so were there really any "others" apart from life just doing its thing?

Also, your previous response, about 'peace, joy and relief' (the D question) was a bit of a rant, wasn't it. Could you please look at that again and instead of all the mental activity and judgement just tell me what sensations and feelings are present with that, including bodily sensations, leaving all judgment (whether of yourself or of life) out of it.

Once I have all of this we'll take it from there.

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Here ya go.

Ok and from the B question, so were there really any "others" apart from life just doing its thing?

No - but it sure seemed like it at the time. Just as it sure seems like it right now.

Also, your previous response, about 'peace, joy and relief' (the D question) was a bit of a rant, wasn't it. Could you please look at that again and instead of all the mental activity and judgement just tell me what sensations and feelings are present with that, including bodily sensations, leaving all judgment (whether of yourself or of life) out of it.

It definitely was a bit of a rant. Those are the thoughts that were triggered by that question. I just let you know what came up, no holds barred. I didn't really have any judgement regarding those statements (although those statements seem to be judgmental in themselves). I also didn't say I believed everything I wrote. They are just thoughts. I feel more like I was allowing them room to express themselves (rather than repressing them). I appreciate the direction towards the feelings they represent.

As I was writing that there was definite clutching in my stomach and the feeling of not being good enough. Undeserving. Pissed off. Angry, frustrated and disillusioned. Disillusioned for sure.
One last one - maybe a little righteous indignation, thrown in there for good measure.
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for all those, both the detail and your frankness. Now please consider the following, again looking at the sensations that arise (bodily, feelings, emotional) rather than commentary on them, no matter how much the story seems to invite attention:-

1.

"Ok and from the B question, so were there really any "others" apart from life just doing its thing?"

No - but it sure seemed like it at the time. Just as it sure seems like it right now.

When you write 'it sure seems like it right now' (ie that there were really 'others'), it seems like it (mental) but how does it actually feel? Please take time and look at what are the feelings/sensations? Where is the sensation of those 'others'? Is someone choosing those energies or are they just there by themselves?

2.

"Are there any instances where "Robert" seems to be in play?"

Looking at this I would have to say, yes. It seems he is the worrier. So when having to deal with or think about my current situation there seems to be an onslaught of I am thoughts.

So, look into the instances where Robert seems to be present as the worrier. Where is the physical sensation of Robert the worrier? How does that feel? Take a look at it for a while. Is it an energy? Can you say that Robert is there, responsible for that worried feeling, or that LIFE is just playing worried? Which feels right? Stay with these for a while please.

3.

"As I was writing that there was definite clutching in my stomach and the feeling of not being good enough. Undeserving. Pissed off. Angry, frustrated and disillusioned. Disillusioned for sure.
One last one - maybe a little righteous indignation, thrown in there for good measure."

In the second reply, there was a little more standing back from the 'rant', though still some of those 'emotions' seem to have attached stories implied eg 'righteous indignation' and 'disillusioned'. Again, leaving aside stories, commentaries and interpretations, just take a look at the emotions themselves. It seems that the main ones are 'not being good enough' and then anger in various guises. Spend time with each, noticing (I know that you already did some of this, but I would like more), noticing just how they feel and any differences. Were they chosen by you or did they just come? Can it be found anywhere that those were anything separate from just Life happening, emoting? Are they 'Robert'?

Cheers

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Thanks again for your direction. The word commentary was especially useful. I was watching a hockey game the other night and noticed how the action was taking place and the commentators were always a second behind the action with their analysis. While looking at your questions It dawned on me that the mind was kind of the same way, Always a split second behind, labeling or storifying. This helped me look throughout the day for the feeling that triggered a thought.

When you write 'it sure seems like it right now' (ie that there were really 'others'), it seems like it (mental) but how does it actually feel? Please take time and look at what are the feelings/sensations? Where is the sensation of those 'others'? Is someone choosing those energies or are they just there by themselves?

Firstly, looking at the "past" seemed very difficult to do, never mind even finding others there. It felt like my mind was playing tricks on me.
As for others in this moment. My first impression was an overall blanket judgement.
I had a few answers but I am not clear on this, the sensation and energies of others.
It's like I kind of see it but I feel I am blocking myself somehow from seeing/feeling anything. It just feels kind of Blank, blurry, I am not sure.

So, look into the instances where Robert seems to be present as the worrier. Where is the physical sensation of Robert the worrier? How does that feel? Take a look at it for a while. Is it an energy? Can you say that Robert is there, responsible for that worried feeling, or that LIFE is just playing worried? Which feels right? Stay with these for a while please.

Robert the worrier seems to be just in the mind. Most of the feelings seem to originate as a clutching in the stomach area. Without the story I could see the feeling as just an energy. Robert was not there and definitely not responsible. Without the commentary/story there is no Robert, just a movement of energy labeled as worry.
Without the label it really no longer even felt like worry. These seem to be originating on their own. I had the thought that all feelings were just part of a spectrum of energy all originating from one source (love).

Spend time with each, noticing (I know that you already did some of this, but I would like more), noticing just how they feel and any differences. Were they chosen by you or did they just come? Can it be found anywhere that those were anything separate from just Life happening, emoting? Are they 'Robert'?

Looking at each with its label, I could see them as just energy but they really didn't pack the same punch without the story. As I spent time with these (no labels) there seemed to be very little difference, if any at all, between the different emotions.
I did not choose which ones came up. I would have a thought (knowing the feeling actually came first) I would stop the commentary and be with the feeling. They come from who knows where, go back to who knows where. They are not separate and are definitely not Robert.

This is what I have at this moment
Thanks
Robert

[ElPortal]

Hi Robert,

Yes, it's interesting to see that whole labelling/commentary activity with thoughts, isn't it, and to discover what remains when those are left aside.

A) Your last two paragraphs there suggest no individual, no 'Robert', but just what is happening by itself. How do you feel about this? Anything you want to say or add about that?

B)

Firstly, looking at the "past" seemed very difficult to do, never mind even finding others there. It felt like my mind was playing tricks on me.
As for others in this moment. My first impression was an overall blanket judgement.
I had a few answers but I am not clear on this, the sensation and energies of others.
It's like I kind of see it but I feel I am blocking myself somehow from seeing/feeling anything. It just feels kind of Blank, blurry, I am not sure.

The mind will have lots of fun with 'others' and with the 'past': lots of labels there, as with the 'future'. But what actually comes up in the present that is not commentary? What emotions? Shame, guilt, pride, other stuff? What sensations? What is left with them when the stories are dropped? Stay with this a little longer if possible. See if you can find more.

C) "Looking at each with its label, I could see them as just energy but they really didn't pack the same punch without the story."

So can this be applied to any other feelings and thoughts which come up (eg you mention anxieties about the present situation)? Is anything happening apart from the energy? Is it happening to anyone?

D) OK, so can you now observe and tell me whether you can find anything at all - events, thoughts, choices, actions - that you decide, intend, choose or control in Life? Do you make anything happen? Have a scan through and see what you can find. Please give examples from your experience. Be as precise and detailed as you can.

Cheers,

Mark

[Barjoni]

Hi Mark
Just a quick note on some of these I will respond I more detail later.

Yes, it's interesting to see that whole labelling/commentary activity with thoughts, isn't it, and to discover what remains when those are left aside.

I feel more like liberating should be the word.

A) Your last two paragraphs there suggest no individual, no 'Robert', but just what is happening by itself. How do you feel about this? Anything you want to say or add about that?

nothing right now

The mind will have lots of fun with 'others' and with the 'past': lots of labels there, as with the 'future'. But what actually comes up in the present that is not commentary? What emotions? Shame, guilt, pride, other stuff? What sensations? What is left with them when the stories are dropped? Stay with this a little longer if possible. See if you can find more.

I have been spending almost all of my time looking here and making some progress with some feelings. It seems though that the block here is suppression which then causes a tightening in the stomach. This seems almost like an automatic defense mechanism. I do not feel like I have seen the Truth of "others" yet.

So can this be applied to any other feelings and thoughts which come up (eg you mention anxieties about the present situation)? Is anything happening apart from the energy? Is it happening to anyone?

Yes very much so. All the way - all meaning. It's all in the story. Shall respond in more detail later.

D) OK, so can you now observe and tell me whether you can find anything at all - events, thoughts, choices, actions - that you decide, intend, choose or control in Life? Do you make anything happen? Have a scan through and see what you can find. Please give examples from your experience. Be as precise and detailed as you can.

Need a little more time here just clarify and document what I already see.
The " others" seem to be the sticking point right now. I have a pain in my stomach just thinking about it.

Thanks
Robert