Guide needed with much gratitude x

[Shunyata]

It's gone, there is no self, i saw through it last night and today it is no longer here, it never was.

[Shunyata]

[quote]Is awareness aware of awareness? Maybe thats not a useful question :D

Is awareness you? Is it an entity? Does awareness actually DO anything ( apart from being aware?). Is it awareness that is thinking the thoughts, and making the decisions?

There is no me, there is no entity anywhere, awareness is being, being is just being, it just is. Thoughts arise and fall, that is it, it just is.

[neeeel]

and the rest of my questions/pointers in my previous post?

[Shunyata]

If there is no self, then how does it "keep coming back?" What is it that keeps coming back?
You say you have looked and found no self, and yet you obviously do find one, because "it keeps coming back".
Thoughts are saying "you shouldnt be feeling ill will to others". Do you have any control over what you are feeling, and what thoughts are saying? Are you choosing to feel ill will, and are you thinking the thought "I shouldnt be feeling ill will to others?"

I had not seen throught it proprerly. Last night i had a flash memory of a period of my life where i was so caught up and tied down in thinking that i ended up with ruminating OCD, just could not stop thinking and doubting "myself" i realised straght away that it was thought that had always been the problem, once i realised this i could see that that was where the problem had always been. I looked at the "I" realised it was just a thought and the illusion was seen.

Give me a second to answer the others, i cant see the other posts.

[Shunyata]

On a side note, I am sure adyashanti , and others, have said that cravings, suffering, egoic thoughts DO arise for them, its just that they are recognised instantly for what they are.

This morning amongst other things i felt ill will, it was a very strong feeling and a series of thoughts, "i" knew i had to look deeper so i stopped and it just fell away, there was some identification with it but i knew it was an illusion.

States come and go ( although I am not "liberated" in the sense you talk about above, so maybe when you reach that level, you are in one steady state). Do you have any control over the state you are in?

You have no control over the state you are in, there is no one in control to change the state, it just is what it is. Vision has come to my being, the fully liberated state will be what it is when it is and it no longer matters, suffering is at an end, just the traces left, all beliefs matter not anymore.

[Shunyata]

That is an unreal expectation, and I think you dont quite get it yet.

There is no you to have an ego. There is no you to get, or gain , enlightenment. We are simply looking at this fact, there is no you , at all, anywhere.
We are not looking to remove, kill off, or otherwise destroy, anything.

"I" know i have seen it, there is just being and emptiness where the "I" was.

There is just a bunch of sensations, and thoughts about those sensations. Both the sensations, and the thoughts, are happening automatically, "you" are not doing, or having , or experiencing, any of them.
neeeel

I know :)

[neeeel]

Hey

So if you could give a bit of a rant about what it is you have seen, how you saw it ( what you noticed, what you were looking for etc) and also how it feels now that you have seen it? Whats different, if anything. Whats the same, if anything?

also, could you clarify the following two statements

Vision has come to my being

what do you mean by your being?

there is just being and emptiness where the "I" was.

Has the I now gone? Is there a space where it used to be?


thanks
neil

[Shunyata]

Hey, just got in so will reply fully tomorrow evening ")

[Shunyata]

[quote]Hey

So if you could give a bit of a rant about what it is you have seen, how you saw it ( what you noticed, what you were looking for etc) and also how it feels now that you have seen it? Whats different, if anything. Whats the same, if anything?
/quote]

Before seeing through the self "I" was reading the gatecrasher book, looking at other posts and talking to "you". "I" was annoyed and went to sit in front of white Tara as i knew "i" needed to think my way out of this. Looked for the "I", couldn't find it, went and laid on the bed and then had that vision. "I" have spent 30 years of my "i" suffering and the answer was there in thought, "I" had thought myself into mental illness.

Woke up really early yesterday and knew it had gone. There was just the deepest state of being, being so deep it ran through the core of "me" so deep i feel like the words "i" am using to describe it just don't do it justice. "I" had felt this being many times before but it was always so tied up in thought and questioning about it that it was not experienced clearly. There was also emptiness, just plane emptiness, again something "i" had experienced many time but with the "I" thoughts gone it was so clear. There was silence, "i" could of heard a pin drop and all senses were magnified, the clarity of that will stay in memory forever, "i" knew the reason why you say once seen never forgotten." I" moved around and could see there was no dooer, seer, thinker, just this clear being, very weird experience.

There were thought of worry about whether it would come back, whether it was truly gone but they were just thoughts, "i" wanted to stay in this perfect moment forever and not move, thoughts that "i" did not want to chance leaving the building and ruin it. Thoughts of what "i" should do now i was enlightened - what will change but "I" just got up and went to the gym as normal. Chuckling to myself i realized at the gym that even though stomach exercises hurt there is no "I" in pain - very funny, i managed to hold my exercise longer as there was no one to complain about it !! I got changed in the gym and "I" thoughts came up when i was getting changed, "they" will see my boobs then realizing they are not "my" boobs and not caring about the body and who saw it.

"I" went to the Buddhist center and i just laid with Buddha, "i" smiled at the story "i" was once told about king Ajatisatu and how the Buddha had said he could be happy for month just sitting here - "I" could of laid there forever, so much peace and serenity, just mind at rest. Later on in the day there were feelings of joy and rapture through the body.

There is so much more "i" could say if you want me to go on ?

So what has changed, well nothing in one way. Life still goes on the same though i have this sense that "I" need to do something to help people with this, that there will be big changes in the processing of this even thought the changes will be gradual. A lot needs to sink in, "I" just woke up to the fact that "i" did not exist and "i" suffered for nothing - that's a lot to take on board as "my" life has been hard but was all an illusion. WTF !!

Strong feelings have arisen in the being - anxiety is very prominent but will just be aware that it rises and falls and that conditioned thought is going to try and attach to that for a while - thought of f**k you ego !!

"I" feel at peace, the head does not hurt for the the first time in 20 years, emotion arises at the thought of that and thoughts of sadness for "myself" but they are just thoughts - no "I" to be found. This is going to be life changing. There is a knowing that this is just the beginning as there has been so much insight but if this was all there was it would not matter, peace and freedom from suffering is all i have ever wanted for myself and others.

Ok so i used a lot of "I" reference. What is the "I" ? Thoughts of not being completely clear on this so maybe you could elaborate if "I" don't get it fully or just give me your angle so it is clearer. . "I" is something that was learned when we were taught subject and object as children, it is a belief that we have an identity as being a separate object from that around us. It is an illusion, a lie but is deeply intrenched, hence the Samskaras that persist after liberation. It is somehow tied into the thinking process (again elaboration would be great) "I" feels strange to use now, is there another way of referencing "myself" ?

[neeeel]

Ok so i used a lot of "I" reference. What is the "I" ? Thoughts of not being completely clear on this so maybe you could elaborate if "I" don't get it fully or just give me your angle so it is clearer. . "I" is something that was learned when we were taught subject and object as children, it is a belief that we have an identity as being a separate object from that around us. It is an illusion, a lie but is deeply intrenched, hence the Samskaras that persist after liberation. It is somehow tied into the thinking process (again elaboration would be great) "I" feels strange to use now, is there another way of referencing "myself" ?

Using I is fine. Theres no real need to find different words or language, people have tried various things but they are clunky and unnecessary.

With regard to it being learned, possibly. Possibly also an innate "feature", I can see how being able to reference an object referred to as "me" would be useful in information processing and planning. We definitely learn all about what this "me" should be like from our parents, and also the belief in a separate entity will be passed on from our parents. Think of the children who have difficulty with the me, you,them pronouns.

It sounds like your experience was very relaxing and enjoyable. Are there any doubts as to whether you have seen through the illusion of a separate self?

One point I would like to pick up on

Before seeing through the self "I" was reading the gatecrasher book, looking at other posts and talking to "you". "I" was annoyed and went to sit in front of white Tara as i knew "i" needed to think my way out of this

Did you think your way out of it?

thanks
neil

[Shunyata]

I didn't but thoughts were needed to see the truth.

Doubts - in this state of being Ness i have no doubts all just is but is not just that that is going on. One thing that had also been happening over the years is some major shifts in consciousness that actually feel like my mind is unable to a tally take them, when these shifts happen there is a lot of fear and thoughts arising - i could do with some help understanding this.

[neeeel]

I didn't but thoughts were needed to see the truth.

Doubts - in this state of being Ness i have no doubts all just is but is not just that that is going on. One thing that had also been happening over the years is some major shifts in consciousness that actually feel like my mind is unable to a tally take them, when these shifts happen there is a lot of fear and thoughts arising - i could do with some help understanding this.

Is the fear and thoughts yours? Are you doing them?

Maybe tell me a little about the fears and thoughts, what is the fear about, what are you scared of?

[Shunyata]

And how do 'we" actually work with no central controller - i mean decisions and choices and thinking - what's actually going on ?

[Shunyata]

Well, the state itself is pure clarity, there is absolutely nothing in this state, no thoughts, no emotions, just what could be described as "pure consciousness" its so clear its piercing there appears to be no being either. Thoughts and fear arise that "i am losing it" there becomes what feels like a mrental battle to not lose it. This only happens in this particular state but because there is no sense of anyt hing at all in this state, no knowing, no thinking, no nothing it becomes like a blur of thoughts and feeling that have no reference point.

I hope this makes sense

[neeeel]

And how do 'we" actually work with no central controller - i mean decisions and choices and thinking - what's actually going on ?

This is for you to look at, not for me to answer. What is actually going on with decisions and choices? Take a look, like in the exercise I gave you with the orange and apple.

Well, the state itself is pure clarity, there is absolutely nothing in this state, no thoughts, no emotions, just what could be described as "pure consciousness" its so clear its piercing there appears to be no being either. Thoughts and fear arise that "i am losing it" there becomes what feels like a mrental battle to not lose it. This only happens in this particular state but because there is no sense of anyt hing at all in this state, no knowing, no thinking, no nothing it becomes like a blur of thoughts and feeling that have no reference point.

Is there something that you can lose, and a you that can lose it? Is there something you can grab onto and hold? Do you have any control over mind states?

Thoughts say all sorts of things. Look at the thought "I am losing it". Are you doing, thinking , that thought? Is there an I anywhere that can lose anything?